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werothegreat

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Some cards ideas from a while back
« on: December 03, 2014, 09:08:32 pm »
+2

I was just perusing my Google Drive, and stumbled upon these card ideas.  Could have sworn I posted them already, but a search would appear to suggest otherwise.

I seem to have went with a "bottom of the deck" theme.

Sewer
Action - $2

Reveal the bottom card of your deck.  +$ equal to its cost in coins.



Secret-Keeper
Action - $3

+2 Cards, +1 Action

Put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck.



Double Agent
Action - $3

Play this as if it were an Action that the player to your left chooses from the Supply (other than Double Agent) costing from $3 to $5.  This is that card until it leaves play.



Lordling
Action - $3

If you have an even number of cards in hand, +$2.  Otherwise, +3 Cards.



Ancient Amulet
Action-Attack - $5

Gain a Silver, putting it into your hand.  Each other player reveals and discards the top card of their deck.  If it is a Victory or Curse card, they gain a Curse.  Otherwise, they gain a Copper.



Leap of Faith
Action - $4

+1 Action, +$1

The player to your left picks a number from 1 to 5.  Reveal that number of cards.  Put the last card revealed into your hand, and discard the other revealed cards.



Fence
Action - $4

Trash up to 3 cards from your hand.  +1 Card per card trashed.



Bastard
Action - $3

Discard a card.  You may play an Action (other than a Bastard) from your hand 3 times.

When you gain this, gain a Curse.


Jailer
Action - $5

Look at the bottom 4 cards of your deck.  Put up to 3 of them in your hand, and discard the rest.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 09:09:33 pm by werothegreat »
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liopoil

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2014, 09:21:09 pm »
0

I haven't really given advice before or really designed cards, so I'm not sure why I'm really giving suggestions, but hey, why not:

Sewer - Sounds really swingy. It should probably discard the bottom card of your deck so that multiple sewers don't all see the same thing.

Secret Keeper - pretty weak. It just is a cantrip that sifts, and there isn't much difference between putting on the bottom and shuffling. I guess it combos with sewer, and in fact that combo may be too strong.

Double agent - This will almost always be awful?

Lordling - Hey, that sounds pretty cool. I like it.

Ancient Amulet - Really similar to jester. Way better than explorer for sure, but that might be okay.

Leap of Faith - from the top of your deck I assume? This sounds like a peddler for $4, as they will choose 1 except when they know that the top of your deck is good. I don't remember what the consensus is on a $4 peddler, was it that it's really strong?

Fence - This is a better opener than chapel, IMO. Just really really good.

Bastard - weird. It actually sounds pretty strong. In some kingdoms it will just be silly, in others it will be a must-buy. Maybe too much so.

Jailer - I like this smithy variant. It might as well be the top of your deck though. Journeyman and Catacombs seem better, but not too much better.
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werothegreat

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2014, 09:27:25 pm »
0

I haven't really given advice before or really designed cards, so I'm not sure why I'm really giving suggestions, but hey, why not:

Sewer - Sounds really swingy. It should probably discard the bottom card of your deck so that multiple sewers don't all see the same thing.

Good point.

Secret Keeper - pretty weak. It just is a cantrip that sifts, and there isn't much difference between putting on the bottom and shuffling. I guess it combos with sewer, and in fact that combo may be too strong.

Hrrmmm.

Double agent - This will almost always be awful?

Probably, depending on what's in the Kingdom.  I mean, if the only $3 is Double Agent, and the only $4 is Smithy...

Lordling - Hey, that sounds pretty cool. I like it.

Thanks!

Ancient Amulet - Really similar to jester. Way better than explorer for sure, but that might be okay.

I was thinking about the similarity to Jester while posting it.  It's also kind of similar to Soothsayer.

Leap of Faith - from the top of your deck I assume? This sounds like a peddler for $4, as they will choose 1 except when they know that the top of your deck is good. I don't remember what the consensus is on a $4 peddler, was it that it's really strong?

Non-wacky Peddler is considered balanced at $4.  Not sure if this card is really worth keeping, though.

Fence - This is a better opener than chapel, IMO. Just really really good.

I think it might need to be boosted to $5.

Bastard - weird. It actually sounds pretty strong. In some kingdoms it will just be silly, in others it will be a must-buy. Maybe too much so.

Maybe a boost to $4?

Jailer - I like this smithy variant. It might as well be the top of your deck though. Journeyman and Catacombs seem better, but not too much better.

Thanks!
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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2014, 10:28:16 pm »
+1

Sewer - it's a salvager that hits random targets, doesn't trash them, and doesn't give +buy. that's crazy and strong and super swingy. It can just straight up produce +11$ if it hits a colony. You can control it a little bit by messing with your deck, but mh. The idea could be usable, but you have to make it less swingy.

Secret Keeper - Unlike lio, I don't think this is weak. +2 cards, +1 action, discard a card is supposed to be too strong at 3/4$. this is worse, but not that much worse. it could be balanced, however I'm fearful that it will play our rather frustrating/silly.

Double agent - Agree with lio here, this is super weak.

Lordling - Yeah, this is a good idea. I'm not sure if I like the effect, but I definitely like the condition.

Ancient Amulet - This is harmless and probably completely fine power wise, but it lacks any kind of unique appeal.

Leap of Faith - Mh, this is kind of hard to explain because it's a feeling, but I don't think these kinds of effects fit into dominion. things like "your opponent picks a number" or "guess a price, is a top card more or less expensive?" these things are too abstract/complex. choices in dominion are all straight to the point. Advisor, pick the worst card out of 3. Swindler, pick the worst card of a price. Wishing well, name the card you want.

Fence - yeah, lio is right here. the problem with chapel variants is that chapel is so much stronger than almost any other card, so variants are almost always too good. this card would be strong without the drawing, even though that would make it strictly worse than chapel.

Bastard - the wording should be
Quote
Bastard - Action - 3$
Discard a card. You may choose an Action card from your hand. Play it three times.
---
When you gain this, gain a curse
It's a KC variant with a cheaper price and a negative on-gain. I do think there are things that can be done in this way, and this is looks like a decent enough try.

Jailer - I don't like it that much, mostly because I don't see a reason why the interaction with the bottom of your deck is there. Why not draw from the top of your deck instead? it'll mostly be the same. but there's also not really an appeal there, it's a much less interesting smithy variant than catacombs or journeyman.
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liopoil

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2014, 10:34:26 pm »
0

silverspawn, you miss that you cannot play bastard on bastard, which is pretty important.
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werothegreat

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2014, 10:51:03 pm »
0

silverspawn, you miss that you cannot play bastard on bastard, which is pretty important.

That's why I priced it so cheaply.  No KC-KC nonsense.
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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2014, 11:04:27 pm »
0

Oh, indeed. That makes it considerably weaker. I'm not sure I like it more though, KC-KC is kinda the most fun thing to do with it.
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werothegreat

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2014, 08:52:51 am »
0

Oh, indeed. That makes it considerably weaker. I'm not sure I like it more though, KC-KC is kinda the most fun thing to do with it.

I open Bastard-Sea Hag.
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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2014, 11:57:46 am »
+2

Oh, indeed. That makes it considerably weaker. I'm not sure I like it more though, KC-KC is kinda the most fun thing to do with it.

I open Bastard-Sea Hag.

You Bastard!
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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2014, 03:23:46 pm »
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I don't know whether Pure Peddler should cost 4$, but Market, Treasury and Baker are all Peddlers with a benefit for 5$. So i would argue that 4$ is okay.
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pacovf

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2014, 04:46:11 pm »
0

Please add "IMHO" in front of everything I say.

Quote
Sewer
Action - $2

Reveal the bottom card of your deck.  +$ equal to its cost in coins.

This had already been pointed out, but the card has to be discarded, otherwise this is nuts. Even if the card is discarded, this might still be too swingy. At least add a condition on the card being an Action or Treasure. So for example:

Quote
Sewer
Action - $2

Discard the bottom card of your deck.  If it was an Action or Treasure card, +$ equal to its cost in coins.

I like the flavour though.


Quote
Secret-Keeper
Action - $3

+2 Cards, +1 Action

Put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck.

This is actually very strong. Putting a card on the bottom of your deck is nearly as good as discarding it, because the card will likely miss the reshuffle, and apparently +2 card +1 action discard a card is very strong at $4, so this would likewise be strong.
But it gets even better when you realize that you can use this to set up combos as you go through your deck. You can make sure that your last turn through your deck will have a village and a smithy or whatever. Sort of like a delayed haven without the handsize increase or decrease.
Looks like a very versatile card. I like it.


Quote
Double Agent
Action - $3

Play this as if it were an Action that the player to your left chooses from the Supply (other than Double Agent) costing from $3 to $5.  This is that card until it leaves play.

Mrmmrmmm... Yeah, not really convinced here, sorry. Maybe as a $2? Buff it, add +1 action? Even then, you won't be happy when your opponent chooses Trading Post late game... I don't see how the concept can be reworked into something that is more interesting than the worst possible card you could have in your hand...


Quote
Lordling
Action - $3

If you have an even number of cards in hand, +$2.  Otherwise, +3 Cards.

This is sooooo coooooool. No idea if it is balanced, but soooooo cooooool.
Note that with "regular" villages, after the first Lordling, all of them will be smithies.


Quote
Ancient Amulet
Action-Attack - $5

Gain a Silver, putting it into your hand.  Each other player reveals and discards the top card of their deck.  If it is a Victory or Curse card, they gain a Curse.  Otherwise, they gain a Copper.

Not super exciting, but then again, cursers rarely are.


Quote
Leap of Faith
Action - $4

+1 Action, +$1

The player to your left picks a number from 1 to 5.  Reveal that number of cards.  Put the last card revealed into your hand, and discard the other revealed cards.

So a peddler that will start cycling like crazy once you start greening? Ok, why not. Not sure if it's that interesting though.


Quote
Fence
Action - $4

Trash up to 3 cards from your hand.  +1 Card per card trashed.

Yeah, crazy crazy strong. You are pretty much guaranteed to open this, maybe even get Fence/nothing if you open 5$/2$. This wants some sort of penalty somewhere to make it slower. Be creative :P


Quote
Bastard
Action - $3

Discard a card.  You may play an Action (other than a Bastard) from your hand 3 times.

When you gain this, gain a Curse.

So many penalties! Then again it's KC. Kinda hard to evaluate without actually playtesting it. This is based on the (arguably) strongest card in the game after all, and it only costs $3.


Quote
Jailer
Action - $5

Look at the bottom 4 cards of your deck.  Put up to 3 of them in your hand, and discard the rest.

So, two things: looking at the bottom of your deck takes longer than looking at the top of your deck (anyone want to make a stack joke here?), so a smithy that looks at the bottom of your deck and makes you choose is going to be extremely annoying with villages.
The other thing: other than edgey edge cases, is there a reason why you would want to put less than 3 cards in hand? Why is that even an option?
There might be something here, but it needs a lot of work.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 04:47:56 pm by pacovf »
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silverspawn

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2014, 04:51:06 pm »
+1

the (arguably) strongest card in the game
not even close! not even in the top ten.
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pacovf

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2014, 04:58:41 pm »
0

the (arguably) strongest card in the game
not even close! not even in the top ten.

...the card with the (arguably) strongest effect? Come on help a brother out.
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DrFlux

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2014, 05:55:58 pm »
0

I like fence. I think it could be made an appropriate power level by just making it able to trash only 2 cards. It would still be a super fast trasher in an engine, because if you draw it with a village, you can trash and not loose options for the rest of your turn.

Actually, it might STILL stronger than a remake after the "nerf". Average scenario: trash a copper and an estate, draw 2, end up with 4 in hand and buy an engine component, which is better than a silver (and you might have had nothing to get with 2). And pretty often you will trash two things and draw up to $5, especially if you opened with a silver.
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werothegreat

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2014, 08:24:40 pm »
0

After your thoughts, some re-evaluations:

Sewer
Action - $2

Reveal the bottom card of your deck.  If it is a Victory card, either discard it; or trash it and +$ equal to its cost in coins.  Otherwise, +$ equal to its cost in coins.


Secret-Keeper
Action - $4

+2 Cards, +1 Action

Put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck.



Double Agent
Action - $3


Not currently salvageable.




Lordling
Action - $3

If you have an even number of cards in hand, +$2.  Otherwise, +3 Cards.



Ancient Amulet
Action-Attack - $5

Gain a Silver, putting it into your hand.  Each other player reveals and discards the top card of their deck.  If it is a Victory or Curse card, they gain a Curse.  Otherwise, they gain a Copper.



Leap of Faith
Action - $4

+1 Action, +$1

The player to your left picks a number from 1 to 5.  Reveal that number of cards.  Put the last card revealed into your hand, and discard the other revealed cards.
  Needs work.



Fence
Action - $5

Trash up to 3 cards from your hand.  +1 Card per card trashed.



Bastard
Action - $3

Discard a card.  You may play an Action (other than a Bastard) from your hand 3 times.

When you gain this, gain a Curse.


Jailer
Action - $5

Look at the bottom 4 cards of your deck.  Put up to 3 of them in your hand, and discard the rest.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2014, 11:13:24 pm »
0

Leap of Faith just seems like a Peddler-with-a-Disadvantage. It's strictly worse than $4 Peddler, unless your opponent isn't playing optimally. I think it's not different enough from regular non-existent $4 Peddler to be worth it, though. It would slow down the game, as your opponent would want to know how many cards are left in your draw pile every time you play one. Then he needs to consider if he wants to cause a reshuffle or not, if he has that option. So if you're gong to make this card, just make regular $4 Peddler instead. Or, maybe make it so that you choose the number instead of your opponent, and make it cost $5.
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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 11:18:13 pm »
+3

I don't know whether Pure Peddler should cost 4$, but Market, Treasury and Baker are all Peddlers with a benefit for 5$. So i would argue that 4$ is okay.

So are Highway, Bazaar, and Junk Dealer. And Oasis is Peddler with a drawback for $3.
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market squire

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2014, 07:50:51 am »
+1

$4 Peddler does not exist because it would compare a bit too favorably to other $4s, I think. Pure Peddler should be in the huge cost gap between $4 and $5. So a small disadvantage as Leap of Faith gives would be okay. I don't think Leap of faith is worth it though.
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silverspawn

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2014, 08:04:12 am »
0

the (arguably) strongest card in the game
not even close! not even in the top ten.

...the card with the (arguably) strongest effect? Come on help a brother out.

KC is just too often skipable (skippable?). it's only viable in engines, and it doesn't help you building an engine either, it just skyrockets the payload. which is great, but if you can't build the engine, you just won't buy it. it depends a little bit on how you value "game impact if you buy it" vs "how often do you buy it". but even if you rate game impact really high, it's still weaker than mount or chapel.
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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2014, 08:06:50 am »
0

$4 Peddler does not exist because it would compare a bit too favorably to other $4s, I think. Pure Peddler should be in the huge cost gap between $4 and $5. So a small disadvantage as Leap of Faith gives would be okay. I don't think Leap of faith is worth it though.

I've heard that a bunch of times before, and I absolutely don't think it's true. Peddler at 4$ would be fine, I don't even think it would be that good. tournament is more or less a peddler+ at 4$, and peddler himself is probably stronger at 8$- than it would be at 4$
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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2014, 09:16:54 am »
+2

$4 Peddler does not exist because it would compare a bit too favorably to other $4s, I think. Pure Peddler should be in the huge cost gap between $4 and $5. So a small disadvantage as Leap of Faith gives would be okay. I don't think Leap of faith is worth it though.

Certainly doesn't compare favorably to Ironmonger. The reason why $4 Peddler doesn't exist is that stronger cards such as Ironmonger and Tournament can exist at $4 each, while weaker cards such as Oasis can exist at $3. I don't think Peddler is worth going for unless you can get it down to $2, aside from a few "might as well get a Peddler" buys for $4 every now and then.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 09:18:03 am by Awaclus »
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market squire

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2014, 10:39:59 am »
+1

From Donalds card complexity article:
Quote
The solution to the vanilla card problem is not to do vanilla cards. If your basic version of a concept includes a bonus, you can vary the bonus and keep the cost the same. Only when you do the bonus-less version are you stuck with increasing the cost. But you can't just not do vanilla cards. You need them for how simple they are. So in the end you pick and choose. For example Dominion does not have a card that just says "+1 Card +1 Action +$1." If I made that card, it would limit what other cards I could make. So instead I just do variations on it.

Peddler at $4 woudn't be broken for sure. Thinking about it, I don't get the "solution" to the vanilla card problem. I don't think Peddler at $4 would compare too badly to Tournament or Ironmonger, because both are not that reliable. Maybe Oasis would look a bit shabby then.
I know, Peddler is cool as-is with the cost reduction/ tfb thing, but the general vanilla card problem just got unclear to me.
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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2014, 11:01:53 am »
0

I don't know whether Pure Peddler should cost 4$, but Market, Treasury and Baker are all Peddlers with a benefit for 5$. So i would argue that 4$ is okay.

So are Highway, Bazaar, and Junk Dealer. And Oasis is Peddler with a drawback for $3.

I thought about listing Junk Dealer, but i didn't want to get into discussions with people saying that forced trashing wasn't always a good thing. Highway and Bazaar (and Oasis) are definitely true, though.
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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2014, 11:45:22 am »
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I don't know whether Pure Peddler should cost 4$, but Market, Treasury and Baker are all Peddlers with a benefit for 5$. So i would argue that 4$ is okay.

So are Highway, Bazaar, and Junk Dealer. And Oasis is Peddler with a drawback for $3.

I thought about listing Junk Dealer, but i didn't want to get into discussions with people saying that forced trashing wasn't always a good thing. Highway and Bazaar (and Oasis) are definitely true, though.

Cost reduction isn't always a good thing.
Discarding a card isn't always bad.

For real though, you can say something is a benefit even if it isn't always good. Junk Dealer is certainly a peddler+.
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silverspawn

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Re: Some cards ideas from a while back
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2014, 01:04:00 pm »
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I don't know whether Pure Peddler should cost 4$, but Market, Treasury and Baker are all Peddlers with a benefit for 5$. So i would argue that 4$ is okay.

So are Highway, Bazaar, and Junk Dealer. And Oasis is Peddler with a drawback for $3.

I thought about listing Junk Dealer, but i didn't want to get into discussions with people saying that forced trashing wasn't always a good thing. Highway and Bazaar (and Oasis) are definitely true, though.

Cost reduction isn't always a good thing.
Discarding a card isn't always bad.

Junk Dealer is certainly a peddler+.

I disagree, I don't think junk dealer is a peddler+ anymore than a lab is. it's better on average, but the role it has is not at all similar to peddler. if you bought junk dealers like you buy peddlers - a lot of them in a super trim deck - they would quickly become dead cards. it's not an edge case.
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