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Author Topic: Prismata  (Read 133570 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #275 on: January 06, 2015, 05:43:40 pm »
+2

The only unit that is green and not fragile where it makes a difference is centurion, and he is less than half green.

By the way, have you noticed that the walls all consist of as many pieces as they have defense?

pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #276 on: January 06, 2015, 05:55:04 pm »
+2

The only unit that is green and not fragile where it makes a difference is centurion, and he is less than half green.

And xenoguardian, which is exactly half green!

Quote
By the way, have you noticed that the walls all consist of as many pieces as they have defense?

Yes! I thought it was a nice touch when I first noticed.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #277 on: January 06, 2015, 06:06:46 pm »
0

The only unit that is green and not fragile where it makes a difference is centurion, and he is less than half green.

And xenoguardian, which is exactly half green!
oh, right.

hey, these are also the only two units with vigilance

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #278 on: January 06, 2015, 06:16:15 pm »
0

And barrier, plexo cell, and fission turret :P

Ha, I never noticed plexo isn't fragile. That's cute.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #279 on: January 06, 2015, 06:43:09 pm »
0

well they have to put thematic aspects behind mechanic aspects, so units that have one health or die after one turn can't be fragile, even if it feels wrong.

another little thing - every unit which can cause you to construct another unit is limited in some way, probably because they want to have a finite amount of possible cards. gauss fabricator has lifespawn, sentinel has stamina, frost brooder has lifespawn, Asteri canon loses health, etc. Even thermite core has a lifespawn that never matters.

pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #280 on: January 07, 2015, 06:37:40 pm »
+2

Changes and two new units!

I like the changes on the special drones, and don't mind the change on cryo ray (a huge nerf, but then again it is super cheap).

Don't know what to think of the two new units yet, other than the new wall variant keeping hex:health = 1.
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #281 on: January 07, 2015, 08:10:44 pm »
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Changes and two new units!

I like the changes on the special drones, and don't mind the change on cryo ray (a huge nerf, but then again it is super cheap).

Don't know what to think of the two new units yet, other than the new wall variant keeping hex:health = 1.

The new wall looks very strong: it seems like it would be great even costing 6B. I love the change to Vivid Drones: should lead to much more interesting Vivid games instead of it being near-mandatory to build all four Vivids. The change to Doomed Drones is interesting - it doesn't sound right to me now, since Doomed is already so good, but I imagine they've thought about this and it won't totally ruin the game's balance.

As for freeze: I find freeze still gives me a headache, so I'm in favor of the Cryo nerf, and not looking forward to the Endotherm Kit, but that's just a selfish preference thing rather than a balanced analysis.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #282 on: January 07, 2015, 08:46:13 pm »
0

Doomed drone is actually a slightly better resource producer than normal drone now (if you have unlimited energy), I just did the maths. The change to cyro ray is good, I think it's still really strong. Vivid drone change is good too I think, though I'm less sure.

I don't know about the wall, I liked shredder as a 4hp wall. I think this will make shredder much less useful if both are in the game, at least I mostly bought him for that. No opinion about the frost package.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #283 on: January 07, 2015, 08:48:44 pm »
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Doomed drone is actually a slightly better resource producer than normal drone now (if you have unlimited energy), I just did the maths.
Huh? It depends on how long the game goes.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #284 on: January 07, 2015, 09:10:50 pm »
0

Doomed drone is actually a slightly better resource producer than normal drone now (if you have unlimited energy), I just did the maths.
Huh? It depends on how long the game goes.
I don't think it does. Well, if the game ends while your drone is still alive, it changes things. But if not, one will gain you more resources than the other.

There is probably a more elegant way to calculate this, but I think what I did works. I just assumed P1 starts with X $ in drones, P2 starts with X $ in Doomed drones, both use their new money to buy normal drones, and then whoever has more after 4 turns uses the better unit. You get mistakes if you have money left that's not enough for a new drone (1 or 2), so I used big numbers

18D -> 24D -> 32D -> 42D2$ -> 56D2$
27X -> 9D27X -> 21D27X -> 37D27X -> 58D1$

X is doomed drone. So, I think that shows that doomed drone is better... right?

silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #285 on: January 07, 2015, 09:11:57 pm »
0

Obviously, drone is still better if you consider energy.

popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #286 on: January 08, 2015, 07:44:47 pm »
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Hopefully the buff to doomed drone is posturing for before they make 3 turn doomed drone a standard unit :P

I like the new frost kit more than the new wall.  Primata seems like it's lacking in interesting strategy selection questions compared to dominion, but not lacking at all in strategy optimization questions.  Offering 3 damage reduction from the same first blast forge that usually gets you 2 damage reduction seems like enough of a no-brainer that it won't make strategy selection more interesting than before, more simple than before if anything. 
Using red to get some granularity is a cool optimization question but not helping on the front I think the game is weakest.  It makes you question whether to do BR or BG a little bit on the selection front though, so that's ok.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #287 on: January 09, 2015, 07:55:04 pm »
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My advise concerning bastforge: get it. There are times where you don't, but in most cases you really want to have it. Defending with Rhinos is a losing strategy, you should only do it if it's absolutely necessary.

More importantly though, don't buy Gauss Canons. Gauss Canon is the Scout of Prismata (which also means that there are exceptions, but start with not buying them).
To expand a bit on the Gauss Cannon statement, getting lots of Gauss Cannons is not really a viable strategy in itself. They are just too expensive, and unlike Steelsplitters they can't function as a non-prompt defender that puts pressure or anything. In theory they could be part of some counterbuilds, but the randomized "kingdom" makes those situations unlikely. This is my understanding of the cannons.

They can be good if you have the spare resources for them and you want to increase the power of your big burst next turn, say with Zemora Voidbringer or just lots of Gauss Charges or Frostbites.

If you want to slowly build up a solid attack army, Tarsiers are the way to go, but you'll probably need blue tech to defend them.

Now Forcefields, those are useful and are a reason to want a spare Conduit at some point.
I just won a game with Apollo where I built up an army of Gauss Cannons with Synthesizer. Synthesizer was the only tech building that wasn't vulnerable to Apollo, so Gauss cannons were my only real option to punch through my opponent's defenses. I was behind on drones due to opposing Deadeye Operatives earlier on, so I had to put pressure.

Just throwing that out there.
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popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #288 on: January 11, 2015, 10:56:22 am »
0

It's not a big deal if Apollo shoots a tech building.  You can just rebuild it.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #289 on: January 11, 2015, 04:23:11 pm »
0

It's not a big deal if Apollo shoots a tech building.  You can just rebuild it.

Well, Gauss Cannons are cheaper than Tarsiers when you have to construct a new Animus for every 2 Tarsiers you construct.
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Awaclus

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #290 on: January 17, 2015, 04:26:45 am »
+2

I just made it to tier 8!
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #291 on: January 17, 2015, 05:48:36 am »
+2

I just made it to tier 8!

And you beat at least one tier X player: Eiko was in the top 100 earlier tonight. Congratulations on both achievements.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #292 on: January 17, 2015, 06:51:37 am »
+2

In case anyone is interested, I did a little calculating where I compared and ranked all existing defenders with prompt by their efficiency. From what I can see, a lot of players make pretty suboptimal choices here.

I have $ = red = 3, green = 4, blue = 5, energy = 0 for the prices

ranknamecost per defense
1Plexo Cell
5,75
2Polywall
5,83
3Aegis
6,0
4Energy Matrix*
6,16
5Doomed Wall
6,5
6Wall
6,6
7Barrier
7,0
8Force Field
8,0
9Drone**
12,0

* treated as 6 defense because of the pixie
** treated as if it costs 4$ because you lose 1$ by not clicking

pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #293 on: January 17, 2015, 07:42:04 am »
+1

* treated as 6 defense because of the pixie

The quoted part... is not very useful. The pixie cannot block. You buy prompt defenders so that the attacker doesn't reach your whatever. The pixie isn't accomplishing that.

The rest you probably know already, but I'll write it down anyway:

It would also be useful to note that some of the prompt defenders have lifespan. Lifespan 1 in particular is countered hard by chill, and soft countered by the attacker being able to transform attack into other ressources (usually defense/absorb or delayed attack).

Saying energy = 0 is a good approximation... until it isn't. Of course, it is usually a good idea to always keep at least one engineer alive to have more granularity in your defense. But personally I don't replace them if it allows me to squeeze an extra attacker. I'm not entirely sure I am right on that account though, it would probably help if I was better able to predict how much attack I would have to defend against two turns later.

And the strength of forcefield and plexocell is that their full cost is delayed: you don't need to replace drones as you consume them. If the game is about to end, Forcefied and Plexo cell are by far the most efficient defenders. And even if that is not the case, not replacing the drone saves you 3 coins, which might very well be enough to build an extra attacker, and 1 attack >>> 1 gold, etc.

Special note on Polywall: because it is frontline, if the opponent works around it, you are nullifying your absorb. So polywall's defense might be as low as 6-(absorb/n_polywalls). For example, if you have one wall and one polywall, and your opponent attacks with 6, the polywall only granted you 4 extra defense.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 07:52:15 am by pacovf »
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #294 on: January 17, 2015, 07:58:56 am »
0

I don't get your numbers though. How are you calculating them? It's definitely not converted_cost/health.

[ 3($ in cost) + 3(red in cost) + 4(green in cost) + 5(blue in cost)] / health

example: plexo cell costs 2$ + 2 green + 3$(drone). that is 6 + 8 + 9 = 23. plexo cell has 4 health so 23 / 4 = 5.75

The quoted part... is not very useful. The pixie cannot block. You buy prompt defenders so that the attacker doesn't reach your whatever. The pixie isn't accomplishing that.
The idea is not that you need every bit of defense to defend, the idea is that you can defend in several ways and have freedom to chose the best one, which means it's really bad to treat matrix as 5 defense because that makes it look far worse than it is

the rest is true. I wasn't making any statements, obviously other factors are way more important -if- they are there.

pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #295 on: January 17, 2015, 08:10:11 am »
+1

I don't get your numbers though. How are you calculating them? It's definitely not converted_cost/health.

[ 3($ in cost) + 3(red in cost) + 4(green in cost) + 5(blue in cost)] / health

example: plexo cell costs 2$ + 2 green + 3$(drone). that is 6 + 8 + 9 = 23. plexo cell has 4 health so 23 / 4 = 5.75

Yeah, sorry, I didn't read your post correctly at first, but you saw my post before I took that line out. Basically you are doing cost_to_be_able_to_buy_one_every_turn / defense.

Quote
The quoted part... is not very useful. The pixie cannot block. You buy prompt defenders so that the attacker doesn't reach your whatever. The pixie isn't accomplishing that.
The idea is not that you need every bit of defense to defend, the idea is that you can defend in several ways and have freedom to chose the best one, which means it's really bad to treat matrix as 5 defense because that makes it look far worse than it is.

I still don't get this. I get that if you treat energy matrix as being solely a 5 defense blocker, it is not very good for its cost*. I don't get why you are equating a pixie with one defense.

* Except the first one, but there you are buying it for its absorb, not its health, if the difference makes any sense.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #296 on: January 17, 2015, 08:23:13 am »
+1

I still don't get this. I get that if you treat energy matrix as being solely a 5 defense blocker, it is not very good for its cost*. I don't get why you are equating a pixie with one defense.

* Except the first one, but there you are buying it for its absorb, not its health, if the difference makes any sense.

Well, a pixie is worth about as much as one damage which is worth about as much as one defense. see thermite core, barrier, gauss charge.

of course one damage can be better for you than it is for your opponent (or worse), in which case energy matrix is better (or worse) than it is in the table, but 6 health is certainly a more accurate estimation of how good it is on average than 5 health

unrelated, I just had my first ever draw

Awaclus

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #297 on: January 17, 2015, 10:21:34 am »
0

I don't get why you are equating a pixie with one defense.

Well, on average it's a bit better than one defense since you can use your Pixie when it's the most beneficial for you, while your opponent can destroy your defenses when it's the most beneficial for him, but there's a significant gap between Energy Matrix and Doomed Wall in the ranking so that's probably not enough to make up for the difference.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #298 on: January 17, 2015, 07:51:31 pm »
0

So engineer is a flat 6 by these calculations, right?
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #299 on: January 18, 2015, 03:04:59 am »
0

So engineer is a flat 6 by these calculations, right?

If you just look at the price, yes. But that's misleading, because engineer doesn't have prompt. Money increases each turn, so buying engineers to defend is not actually efficient.
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