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Author Topic: Prismata  (Read 133579 times)

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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #225 on: December 26, 2014, 09:37:08 pm »
0

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that green is underpowered? That's not really true. The base units are certainly less useful than the blue and red ones, but there are plenty of strong green units that aren't in the base set.

Green isn't underpowered, it's just more kingdom reliant than the other two.  I think it'd make the game more skill intensive if all three colors had similar amounts of kingdom dependency.

I think I agree here. I'll probably wait until I've played some more and am more confident in my skill, but it might make sense to suggest buffing Gauss Cannon in the "balancing suggestion" place. Would it be overpowered if it could block? Probably. Cheaper? I actually just think making Iso Kronus the green base unit would work... It's basically a cheaper, better Gauss Cannon already.
I feel like Iso Cronus is already too close to Tarsier though.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #226 on: December 27, 2014, 08:16:17 am »
+2

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that green is underpowered? That's not really true. The base units are certainly less useful than the blue and red ones, but there are plenty of strong green units that aren't in the base set.

Green isn't underpowered, it's just more kingdom reliant than the other two.  I think it'd make the game more skill intensive if all three colors had similar amounts of kingdom dependency.

I think I agree here. I'll probably wait until I've played some more and am more confident in my skill, but it might make sense to suggest buffing Gauss Cannon in the "balancing suggestion" place. Would it be overpowered if it could block? Probably. Cheaper? I actually just think making Iso Kronus the green base unit would work... It's basically a cheaper, better Gauss Cannon already.

well, Gauss Canon could afford to be 1$ cheaper without breaking the game (which is something that's absolutely not true of most cheap units). I'm not sure that Gauss Canon hurts the game as is though. It seems kind of neat that Tarsier is the only okay damage source in the base set.

I don't like making Kronos a base unit, because Kronos is really, really strong. It shouldn't be available all the time.

Awaclus

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #227 on: December 27, 2014, 08:39:24 am »
+8

Gauss Cannon could be just renamed "Goko Kronus" — more expensive and still worse than Iso Kronus #isowasbetter #gokoisworse
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #228 on: December 27, 2014, 02:29:41 pm »
0

Just solved the hard boss puzzle, without looking at any spoilers. Looking at them now, I think I got a new solution

get shadowfang as fast as humanly possible, D/AA/S/S, then defend with rhinos. no blue or engineers, and only buy one drone the entire game

It wasn't very fast though, but it works

popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #229 on: December 27, 2014, 04:26:41 pm »
0

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that green is underpowered? That's not really true. The base units are certainly less useful than the blue and red ones, but there are plenty of strong green units that aren't in the base set.

Green isn't underpowered, it's just more kingdom reliant than the other two.  I think it'd make the game more skill intensive if all three colors had similar amounts of kingdom dependency.

I think I agree here. I'll probably wait until I've played some more and am more confident in my skill, but it might make sense to suggest buffing Gauss Cannon in the "balancing suggestion" place. Would it be overpowered if it could block? Probably. Cheaper? I actually just think making Iso Kronus the green base unit would work... It's basically a cheaper, better Gauss Cannon already.

well, Gauss Canon could afford to be 1$ cheaper without breaking the game (which is something that's absolutely not true of most cheap units). I'm not sure that Gauss Canon hurts the game as is though. It seems kind of neat that Tarsier is the only okay damage source in the base set.

I don't like making Kronos a base unit, because Kronos is really, really strong. It shouldn't be available all the time.
I see a little of the appeal to Tarsier being that way.  Maybe they could add a green base unit that adds some value to green that's not primarily an attacker
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Awaclus

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #230 on: December 28, 2014, 08:51:30 am »
0

Is there ever any reason to not sync your Iso Kronuses? I just lost against someone who didn't, and I'm wondering if I lost because of that, or despite that.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #231 on: December 28, 2014, 09:16:01 am »
0

Is there ever any reason to not sync your Iso Kronuses? I just lost against someone who didn't, and I'm wondering if I lost because of that, or despite that.

if you don't sync even a single one, you lose the whole advantage of only attacking every second turn. it's usually an awful idea.

liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #232 on: December 28, 2014, 11:07:11 am »
+3

If you have enough attack from non-iso sources that they are getting their maximum absorb every turn anyway, I don't see any reason to synch them, so building some on off turns is good because they come into play a turn earlier. But usually you should avoid getting attack from other sources.
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popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #233 on: January 02, 2015, 05:48:03 pm »
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Is it just me or is there some pretty serious first player advantage going on?  Seems worse than chess.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #234 on: January 02, 2015, 05:56:49 pm »
0

Is it just me or is there some pretty serious first player advantage going on?  Seems worse than chess.

I think it definitely makes a difference which player you are, but which player has the advantage depends on the units available (the Scorchilla rush is only available to P2, for example).  The last statistics I saw had P2 with a slight advantage overall (something like 53% win rate).
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #235 on: January 02, 2015, 06:44:16 pm »
0

Is it just me or is there some pretty serious first player advantage going on?  Seems worse than chess.

It's just you. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the extra Drone p2 gets is a pretty strong compensation for going second. Currently p2 wins 52% of all games, according to the developers.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #236 on: January 02, 2015, 07:36:45 pm »
+1

Yeah, there is player advantage. Generally, green openings are good for P2, blue openings are good for P1. Red depends. Vivid drone is super good for P2. Wild drone is pretty good for P2. The red unit that makes green stuff is very good for P2. Odin is extremely good for P1 (if you want him right away).

Overall, my feeling says that P2 is a fair bit better on average (which seems to be backed up by stats, although I hadn't heard of them before).

Somewhat unrelated, I think the "first" and "second" terms are confusing. You could just as well make the first player have second turn but let him start with 8 drones. It's not that one goes first and the other one second, it's just that you play... offset?

Generally, you should have the better position at the board whenever you finished a turn, and the worse position whenever you start a turn. P1, you start with 6 vs 7 drones, you end with 8 vs 7. The farther the game goes, the bigger this gap gets. If, say, your opponent has an even position with you at the end of his turn, that means you're pretty far ahead.

By the way, Doomed Drone makes everything better. If I could decide, I'd make it a base unit.

markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #237 on: January 02, 2015, 08:46:49 pm »
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Yeah, there is player advantage. Generally, green openings are good for P2, blue openings are good for P1. Red depends. Vivid drone is super good for P2. Wild drone is pretty good for P2. The red unit that makes green stuff is very good for P2. Odin is extremely good for P1 (if you want him right away).

Overall, my feeling says that P2 is a fair bit better on average (which seems to be backed up by stats, although I hadn't heard of them before).

Somewhat unrelated, I think the "first" and "second" terms are confusing. You could just as well make the first player have second turn but let him start with 8 drones. It's not that one goes first and the other one second, it's just that you play... offset?

Generally, you should have the better position at the board whenever you finished a turn, and the worse position whenever you start a turn. P1, you start with 6 vs 7 drones, you end with 8 vs 7. The farther the game goes, the bigger this gap gets. If, say, your opponent has an even position with you at the end of his turn, that means you're pretty far ahead.

By the way, Doomed Drone makes everything better. If I could decide, I'd make it a base unit.
But the player with 6 drones has the option to have an extra drone with 8 drones and 10 drones, but not 7 and 9.  I haven't played enough to know specific build orders, but I imagine turn order has subtle differences depending on the specific build order. You mentioned Scorchilla rush as viable for P2 for example.

Doomed Drone sounds good on paper, but again I haven't played enough to know what kind of builds benefit the most from the extra early income (and the extra defender since you can sack doomed drone instead of say an engineer on its last turn).
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popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #238 on: January 02, 2015, 09:04:02 pm »
+1

Doomed Drone is really skill intensive
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #239 on: January 02, 2015, 09:11:02 pm »
+1

But the player with 6 drones has the option to have an extra drone with 8 drones and 10 drones, but not 7 and 9
I... don't understand what you mean.

Doomed Drone sounds good on paper, but again I haven't played enough to know what kind of builds benefit the most from the extra early income (and the extra defender since you can sack doomed drone instead of say an engineer on its last turn).
I think the blocking is pretty unrelated. What I like about it is just that it makes the unfair scenarios less unfair. For example, if you want to open blue as P2 without it, you either have to wait until turn 3, or just buy drone/bastforge on T2 with 2$ left, which is horrible. With doomed drone, you can build drone/DD/blastforge, which is still not great because doomed drone is far inferior to the normal drone as a source of income, but it's still better. Seems like a really elegant way to reduce this problem.

And it's a cool unit anyway.

popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #240 on: January 02, 2015, 09:11:54 pm »
0

I'm not sure a 52% winrate means that everything is ok.  I feel like specific units swing strong p1 or p2 advantage so that games are a little bit deterministic.  It'd be like renaming white black and renaming black to white in half your games to show that chess has no p1 issue at all.
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #241 on: January 02, 2015, 10:40:07 pm »
0

But the player with 6 drones has the option to have an extra drone with 8 drones and 10 drones, but not 7 and 9
I... don't understand what you mean.
I mean to say that starting from 6/7 drone split can play out differently than starting from a 7/8 drone split, or an 8/9 drone split. That's not even taking into account the spare gold.

Technically, the first turn player has the option of doing a 6 drone build and the player starting with 7 drones doesn't. It's just that not buying drones with a 6 drone start is usually not a great play.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #242 on: January 03, 2015, 07:28:15 am »
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I'm not sure a 52% winrate means that everything is ok.  I feel like specific units swing strong p1 or p2 advantage so that games are a little bit deterministic.  It'd be like renaming white black and renaming black to white in half your games to show that chess has no p1 issue at all.

I don't understand your meaning. What does 'everything is ok' mean? And the games are ENTIRELY deterministic, of course - there's no randomness at all after the board is made (unless you include 'how my opponent plays' as a random factor). I also don't understand how chess has a 'p1 issue' - sure, it's not balanced, white is more advantageous, very slightly - what's your point? That's really not a problem.

popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #243 on: January 03, 2015, 02:22:35 pm »
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I'm not sure a 52% winrate means that everything is ok.  I feel like specific units swing strong p1 or p2 advantage so that games are a little bit deterministic.  It'd be like renaming white black and renaming black to white in half your games to show that chess has no p1 issue at all.

I don't understand your meaning. What does 'everything is ok' mean? And the games are ENTIRELY deterministic, of course - there's no randomness at all after the board is made (unless you include 'how my opponent plays' as a random factor). I also don't understand how chess has a 'p1 issue' - sure, it's not balanced, white is more advantageous, very slightly - what's your point? That's really not a problem.

White's advantage is very small, so it's a problem of negligible magnitude.  If white had a huge advantage, people would be a good bit less inclined to play.

Deterministic isn't a good word I guess.  But I feel like it seems like a lot of times there's a strong unit that stands out a lot on the board, but either p1 or p2 can get at it better the way the gold split rolls out, and both my opponent and I go for it, but either I win because I'm p1 or he wins because I'm p2.  I feel less able to point at mistakes dictating the win or loss of the game in those situations. 

I speculate that when someone sits down on one side of a randomly generated set, based on what side they sit on their odds of winning is a lot worse or better than 52%.  Maybe not far enough from 52% that it's a problem. 
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popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #244 on: January 03, 2015, 02:25:23 pm »
0

As an example, in Hearthstone they measured player 1 and player 2's chance of winning across different class matchups and across different deck types.  They found that unusual matchups alleviated p1 advantage instead of aggravating it.  If their findings were that certain class matchups aggravated p1 advantage they were ready to make changes to keep p1 advantage consistently small for subsets of games, not just the overall winrate of all games played.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #245 on: January 03, 2015, 02:36:29 pm »
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Well, in Prismata, the game is going to be 100% a forced win for one player or the other every single time. This isn't true in chess (probably anyway, chess seems to be a draw with perfect play), and it certainly isn't true in a game with randomness like HS. HS has enough inherent randomness to stop a lot of big swings anyway.

I think what you are talking about is, if it's a problem if there's a way to force a win that's too obvious, too easy to figure out.

pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #246 on: January 03, 2015, 03:13:09 pm »
+1

But I feel like it seems like a lot of times there's a strong unit that stands out a lot on the board, but either p1 or p2 can get at it better the way the gold split rolls out, and both my opponent and I go for it, but either I win because I'm p1 or he wins because I'm p2.

While what you say can happen, I don't think it happens that often. I usually play 8 units games (I guess that's what people prefer), and the better players usually crush me because they don't go straight for the strongest unit while I do. Sometimes you have to build up a lot (economically and offensively) before buying that unit (something I suck really hard at doing), sometimes you have to wait for your opponent to reach a particular stage before buying that unit, sometimes there is a weaker unit that counters the strongest one, sometimes there is a colour (or two) that is overall stronger despite having weaker units.

For the record, I managed to get to Tier IX just by having a basic understanding of what each unit is good at and their respective powerlevels, learning to recognize the most common openings, and realizing that sometimes a tarsier rush is the best strategy. I'm just starting to notice that the game goes deeper than that.

Games with only 5 extra units can get a bit degenerate though, I agree with that.
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popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #247 on: January 03, 2015, 05:26:15 pm »
0

Well, in Prismata, the game is going to be 100% a forced win for one player or the other every single time. This isn't true in chess (probably anyway, chess seems to be a draw with perfect play), and it certainly isn't true in a game with randomness like HS. HS has enough inherent randomness to stop a lot of big swings anyway.

I think what you are talking about is, if it's a problem if there's a way to force a win that's too obvious, too easy to figure out.

You might be right about the presence of stalemate softening the impact of advantages.

Prismata has stalemates, actually, though.  They're rare.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #248 on: January 04, 2015, 04:23:27 am »
0

Well, in Prismata, the game is going to be 100% a forced win for one player or the other every single time. This isn't true in chess (probably anyway, chess seems to be a draw with perfect play), and it certainly isn't true in a game with randomness like HS. HS has enough inherent randomness to stop a lot of big swings anyway.

I think what you are talking about is, if it's a problem if there's a way to force a win that's too obvious, too easy to figure out.

I don't see why draws are impossible in Prismata. If I destroy your final Tarsier with my Pixie, and then both of us are left with no gold income, no attackers and no attackers that cost only G/R/B, the match is going to be a draw. It's definitely a rare example, but it's not impossible.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #249 on: January 04, 2015, 05:02:14 am »
0

You can also end up with two Tarsiers and a Wall each.
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