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Author Topic: Prismata  (Read 133556 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #200 on: December 24, 2014, 08:15:51 am »
+1

How can I beat Scorchilla games? It looks like whoever gets 2 of them first just basically wins the game because there rarely is a way to absorb 6, and somehow it's always my opponent.

I'm no expert, but 6 attack only kills engineer and wall, if you have 2 walls. And then you have 2 turns off before they hit again (for 9 probably).
Yeah, and I need those 2 Walls while my opponent doesn't need any defenses and can build more Scorchillas because I was busy building Walls instead of Scorchillas.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 08:18:14 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #201 on: December 24, 2014, 08:27:50 am »
+2

Well, surely you built something while he was building scorchzillas. :p
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Rabid

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #202 on: December 24, 2014, 09:31:09 am »
+1

Ok, could someone point me in the right direction for the advanced defense tactics 5 puzzle? Here are my thoughts so far:

First general premises I'm working with:
1. Other than your big absorber, everything else can just be treated as some number of health to be burned through
2. Therefore, for every defense, I want to use units to get the attack down to 4 and then absorb on a matrix
3. When just losing a unit, it is always better to lose one big unit than two smaller units whose health add up to the same (this does not include the big absorber). So losing a wall is better than losing forcefield/engi


So if one of those is incorrect, that's probably the issue.

Not quite true. The future value of EE can occasionally be greater than W.
If you are attacked for 3 then 3 over two turns, WW is a fail, WEE is OK
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GeoLib

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #203 on: December 24, 2014, 04:18:16 pm »
0

Ok, could someone point me in the right direction for the advanced defense tactics 5 puzzle? Here are my thoughts so far:

First general premises I'm working with:
1. Other than your big absorber, everything else can just be treated as some number of health to be burned through
2. Therefore, for every defense, I want to use units to get the attack down to 4 and then absorb on a matrix
3. When just losing a unit, it is always better to lose one big unit than two smaller units whose health add up to the same (this does not include the big absorber). So losing a wall is better than losing forcefield/engi


So if one of those is incorrect, that's probably the issue.

Not quite true. The future value of EE can occasionally be greater than W.
If you are attacked for 3 then 3 over two turns, WW is a fail, WEE is OK


I don't think that was one of my assumptions, but thanks for the hint!
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Titandrake

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #204 on: December 24, 2014, 04:23:05 pm »
0

For this puzzle in particular:
I just don't see how to do it. I've tried various combinations of defenses. Tried popping or not popping the gauss charges before he can use them. Tried going after some number of venge cannons before finishing of the gauss. I even built a partial decision tree of options that all seem to end in my losing.


You absolutely must absorb the maximum amount of damage each turn to win. As for the Gauss Charges, you should leave them. In the final solution you should just be able to get everything under control in time, in that the math accounts for you breaching attackers the turn before you wouldn't have been able to hold on.

PPE: As for Rabid's point, if EE can be better than W later, then EEE can also be better than W later, and so can Forcefield + Eng since both of those are strictly better than EE

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GeoLib

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #205 on: December 24, 2014, 04:28:21 pm »
0

For this puzzle in particular:
I just don't see how to do it. I've tried various combinations of defenses. Tried popping or not popping the gauss charges before he can use them. Tried going after some number of venge cannons before finishing of the gauss. I even built a partial decision tree of options that all seem to end in my losing.


You absolutely must absorb the maximum amount of damage each turn to win. As for the Gauss Charges, you should leave them. In the final solution you should just be able to get everything under control in time, in that the math accounts for you breaching attackers the turn before you wouldn't have been able to hold on.

PPE: As for Rabid's point, if EE can be better than W later, then EEE can also be better than W later, and so can Forcefield + Eng since both of those are strictly better than EE

Thanks!

The second point is what I was trying to say in my general premise 3

Edit: Got it!
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 04:30:43 pm by GeoLib »
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #206 on: December 24, 2014, 04:29:28 pm »
0

For this puzzle in particular:
I just don't see how to do it. I've tried various combinations of defenses. Tried popping or not popping the gauss charges before he can use them. Tried going after some number of venge cannons before finishing of the gauss. I even built a partial decision tree of options that all seem to end in my losing.


You absolutely must absorb the maximum amount of damage each turn to win. As for the Gauss Charges, you should leave them. In the final solution you should just be able to get everything under control in time, in that the math accounts for you breaching attackers the turn before you wouldn't have been able to hold on.

PPE: As for Rabid's point, if EE can be better than W later, then EEE can also be better than W later, and so can Forcefield + Eng since both of those are strictly better than EE
Gauss charges? Isn't that defense puzzle 6?
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GeoLib

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #207 on: December 24, 2014, 04:32:02 pm »
0

For this puzzle in particular:
I just don't see how to do it. I've tried various combinations of defenses. Tried popping or not popping the gauss charges before he can use them. Tried going after some number of venge cannons before finishing of the gauss. I even built a partial decision tree of options that all seem to end in my losing.


You absolutely must absorb the maximum amount of damage each turn to win. As for the Gauss Charges, you should leave them. In the final solution you should just be able to get everything under control in time, in that the math accounts for you breaching attackers the turn before you wouldn't have been able to hold on.

PPE: As for Rabid's point, if EE can be better than W later, then EEE can also be better than W later, and so can Forcefield + Eng since both of those are strictly better than EE
Gauss charges? Isn't that defense puzzle 6?

It's both. I actually found 6 much easier. I got that one first try. The critical hint was to leave the gauss charges. I'd tried it before but obviously not hard enough before concluding it wasn't as good.
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #208 on: December 24, 2014, 04:38:25 pm »
0

For this puzzle in particular:
I just don't see how to do it. I've tried various combinations of defenses. Tried popping or not popping the gauss charges before he can use them. Tried going after some number of venge cannons before finishing of the gauss. I even built a partial decision tree of options that all seem to end in my losing.


You absolutely must absorb the maximum amount of damage each turn to win. As for the Gauss Charges, you should leave them. In the final solution you should just be able to get everything under control in time, in that the math accounts for you breaching attackers the turn before you wouldn't have been able to hold on.

PPE: As for Rabid's point, if EE can be better than W later, then EEE can also be better than W later, and so can Forcefield + Eng since both of those are strictly better than EE
Gauss charges? Isn't that defense puzzle 6?

It's both. I actually found 6 much easier. I got that one first try. The critical hint was to leave the gauss charges. I'd tried it before but obviously not hard enough before concluding it wasn't as good.
Yeah the puzzles were set up in a way that the key defending concept in one puzzle doesn't necessarily work in the later ones. Like, in puzzle 6 you kill some of the gauss charges to absorb the incoming damage with the best efficiency.
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jonts26

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #209 on: December 24, 2014, 06:31:31 pm »
0

Stock up on defense between the big hits. Don't wait until the turn before.
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GeoLib

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #210 on: December 24, 2014, 08:03:06 pm »
0

So I beat the hard boss, and I think I used a different strategy than has been mentioned.

I used vivid drones to get to 12$/turn and 2 animusses so I could buy Rhino/Shadowfang every turn. I've now repeated it three times in 15 turns, so I think it's pretty robust.

1st 3 turns:E/D,V/A,V/A and then Fang/Rhino from there on out. Kill shards just to keep it under 6. There's always one turn where I can't quite defend and lose a fang. I think if the AI took out a vivid drone it would actually be worse, since I'd have to switch to rhino/rhino or get rhino/engi/engi and then build back drones or something. Bad news

Ok, so I improved it to win in 14 turns. Buy R/R/E instead of S/R on the turn where I would otherwise lose a fang (because obviously that's better) and then target things based on how much health they produce per turn (while still keeping damage potential down). So hit the endo and exostructures sooner. Get the barrier forges before the gunbot forges since both produce 1 health/turn but the former have less health.

Has anyone got a faster solution?
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #211 on: December 25, 2014, 11:00:05 am »
+1

How can I beat Scorchilla games? It looks like whoever gets 2 of them first just basically wins the game because there rarely is a way to absorb 6, and somehow it's always my opponent.

If you are player 2 (black), then you are the player doing the scorchilla rush.

If you are player 1 (white), then you are in for a rough time. I don't know if it is possible to beat a scorchilla rush with the base units, so you have to look into the advanced units for a way out of this.

Things to remember are that the scorchilla rush is trying to breach you hard and early. So either you use cheap high health units, or you follow a strategy that is breach-resistant (i.e., avoid tarsiers). You don't need prompt units for defense, because you know exactly when your opponent is going to attack; just build your defenses one turn earlier, non-prompt units are usually more cost efficient. High absorb is also less important than in a normal game, because your opponent is only attacking one turn out of three (so your total absorb is divided by three).
Another thing to remember is that the scorchilla player is doing a rush. She will probably stay at 12 drones for most of the game. Build some relatively early aggression so that she needs to devote money to defense, and her attack will never increase too much. Scorchillas are dangerous, but they are still quite expensive in the long run, costing 7RG for one attack per turn. Build more efficient attackers and she will fall.

EDIT: if you are looking into ways of defending from the initial 6 attack, an initial idea would be to open T1:DD T2:DD, and if your opponent buys a conduit on her second turn, go T3:DDBlastforge T4:DDSteelsplitter T5:DWallAnimus or T5:DDWallConduit, depending on what is available. If better defenders are available, use your better judgement. This leaves you with a slightly better economic position than your opponent, that you can hopefully transform into a win.

You could also try scaring the second player out of the scorchilla rush by overrushing, but I doubt that is a good idea. T1:DD T2:Conduit T3:Animus T4: Scorchilla*2 is technically possible, but it leaves you with only 8 drones. You can follow this until your opponent abandons the scorchilla rush, and then you switch to something less suicidal.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 06:36:38 pm by pacovf »
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GeoLib

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #212 on: December 26, 2014, 02:38:19 am »
+1

Played my first game against a human and won! Sure I misplayed horribly. Time pressure really got to me and I kept overdefending, forgetting that I need to account for the fact that they'll lose some attacker/defenders before their turn.

I went green/red with gauss cannons, gauss fabricator, feral warden, rhino. I ended up buying a blastforge late though because it seemed like I really needed walls. In general, how do you avoid blastforges? It seems like the high absorb on walls is not really replaceable with anything else.
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Awaclus

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #213 on: December 26, 2014, 07:02:44 am »
+1

Played my first game against a human and won! Sure I misplayed horribly. Time pressure really got to me and I kept overdefending, forgetting that I need to account for the fact that they'll lose some attacker/defenders before their turn.

I went green/red with gauss cannons, gauss fabricator, feral warden, rhino. I ended up buying a blastforge late though because it seemed like I really needed walls. In general, how do you avoid blastforges? It seems like the high absorb on walls is not really replaceable with anything else.

I'm not the best player ever, but I think you can ignore Blastforges when there are very aggressive green and/or red kingdom cards and you're the player who gets them first. Sometimes, your opponent will have to defend against your attacks, and then he doesn't have enough resources to build a lot of attack himself and you can get away with just Rhinos and Engineers and possibly some kingdom cards for defense. It's not very common, but it happens. Also if your opponent is heavily committing to a blue strategy that isn't very aggressive (Deadeye Operative or something like that), it's more likely that ignoring Blastforge will work because then you can almost count on not needing lots of absorb, at least not in the early game.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #214 on: December 26, 2014, 07:23:15 am »
0

My advise concerning bastforge: get it. There are times where you don't, but in most cases you really want to have it. Defending with Rhinos is a losing strategy, you should only do it if it's absolutely necessary.

More importantly though, don't buy Gauss Canons. Gauss Canon is the Scout of Prismata (which also means that there are exceptions, but start with not buying them).

Awaclus

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #215 on: December 26, 2014, 09:25:56 am »
+1

Defending with Rhinos is a losing strategy, you should only do it if it's absolutely necessary.
Not if it means that your opponent is under so much pressure that he has to chump block with Walls more than you have to chump block with Rhinos.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #216 on: December 26, 2014, 12:52:54 pm »
+2

Tier VI!
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #217 on: December 26, 2014, 01:03:12 pm »
+2

My advise concerning bastforge: get it. There are times where you don't, but in most cases you really want to have it. Defending with Rhinos is a losing strategy, you should only do it if it's absolutely necessary.

More importantly though, don't buy Gauss Canons. Gauss Canon is the Scout of Prismata (which also means that there are exceptions, but start with not buying them).
To expand a bit on the Gauss Cannon statement, getting lots of Gauss Cannons is not really a viable strategy in itself. They are just too expensive, and unlike Steelsplitters they can't function as a non-prompt defender that puts pressure or anything. In theory they could be part of some counterbuilds, but the randomized "kingdom" makes those situations unlikely. This is my understanding of the cannons.

They can be good if you have the spare resources for them and you want to increase the power of your big burst next turn, say with Zemora Voidbringer or just lots of Gauss Charges or Frostbites.

If you want to slowly build up a solid attack army, Tarsiers are the way to go, but you'll probably need blue tech to defend them.

Now Forcefields, those are useful and are a reason to want a spare Conduit at some point.
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popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #218 on: December 26, 2014, 02:42:03 pm »
0

I kinda dislike that Gauss cannon is so weak.  Green is more dependent on something being provided by the +5 or +8 than any other color
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Awaclus

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #219 on: December 26, 2014, 02:49:53 pm »
0

I kinda dislike that Gauss cannon is so weak.  Green is more dependent on something being provided by the +5 or +8 than any other color

I think it's fine, considering how strong the green resource is (the building is the cheapest and the resource works like coin tokens).
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popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #220 on: December 26, 2014, 02:55:27 pm »
0

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #221 on: December 26, 2014, 04:19:19 pm »
0

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that green is underpowered? That's not really true. The base units are certainly less useful than the blue and red ones, but there are plenty of strong green units that aren't in the base set.

GeoLib

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #222 on: December 26, 2014, 04:53:21 pm »
0

My advise concerning bastforge: get it. There are times where you don't, but in most cases you really want to have it. Defending with Rhinos is a losing strategy, you should only do it if it's absolutely necessary.

More importantly though, don't buy Gauss Canons. Gauss Canon is the Scout of Prismata (which also means that there are exceptions, but start with not buying them).

Yeah, that's kind of the conclusion I've been coming to. It just seemed like you should be able to skip it sometimes.

Re: Gauss Canons. I usually skip them entirely because they're expensive and it seems like getting breached just sucks regardless of how much health they have. I went for them this set because there was gauss fabricator and I decided to try out these "breach resistant" builds I'd heard about and skip Blastforge. I'm not too impressed. It does seem like Gauss Canon is just way worse than steelsplitter and rhino.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #223 on: December 26, 2014, 08:30:30 pm »
0

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that green is underpowered? That's not really true. The base units are certainly less useful than the blue and red ones, but there are plenty of strong green units that aren't in the base set.

Green isn't underpowered, it's just more kingdom reliant than the other two.  I think it'd make the game more skill intensive if all three colors had similar amounts of kingdom dependency.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #224 on: December 26, 2014, 08:49:12 pm »
0

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that green is underpowered? That's not really true. The base units are certainly less useful than the blue and red ones, but there are plenty of strong green units that aren't in the base set.

Green isn't underpowered, it's just more kingdom reliant than the other two.  I think it'd make the game more skill intensive if all three colors had similar amounts of kingdom dependency.

I think I agree here. I'll probably wait until I've played some more and am more confident in my skill, but it might make sense to suggest buffing Gauss Cannon in the "balancing suggestion" place. Would it be overpowered if it could block? Probably. Cheaper? I actually just think making Iso Kronus the green base unit would work... It's basically a cheaper, better Gauss Cannon already.
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