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Author Topic: Prismata  (Read 62912 times)

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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #175 on: December 21, 2014, 04:54:09 pm »
+2

How do you play Antima Comet?

Before the latest patch, Comet was a pretty strong rush card for P2, with DD DDC DDB Comet WEEEEEEEEEE being at least halfway viable on almost any board. Now that it costs 3RGB, it's more of a tactical mid-game unit, because the investment to rush it is much larger, so you're usually right to put it off.  And indeed, as you say, countering Comet with Comet is pretty dreadful.

The thing about Comet is it's a big tempo play: you buy yourself a turn or two to work on whatever is important while your opponent defends. Maybe that's droning, or maybe it's getting out four Tarsiers and an Amporilla behind your big pile of Engineers. But you rarely break your opponent with a Comet, just slow him down, so you need a follow-up plan. In your game, it looks like that plan was an Asteri, which seems fine.

The counter-play to Comet is often to defend efficiently, with Walls or other blue super-walls, while not getting too far behind in economy. Building attack is usually not a huge priority, because your opponent can defend it comfortably for a long time. Once you've gotten your economy established, and whittled down your opponent's Engineers, then you can consider a counter-Comet, to let you catch up on whatever it is you need tempo for.
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #176 on: December 21, 2014, 05:55:20 pm »
+1

If we are talking specific units, there's some that still confuse me:

-Odin: what are you supposed to do with this guy? I used to click on it all the time, but after some games that slowly turned sour for me, I am starting to think that it might be better to defend with it, especially if it is the highest health unit in the set. Thoughts?

-Cauterizer: he's freakishly expensive for two attack (the similarly priced Cynestra has three attack). When is it good? I am "translating" the cumbersome way it works as "At the beginning of your turn, gain 2 attack. You can sacrifice this for 7 health. While this is in play, engineers gain prompt.", which basically makes this a very defensive attacker. It seems kind of awkward to place in your build queue.

-Hannibull: cheaper than Cauterizers but more expensive than Iceblade Golems. There's only 4 of them, and has the huge disadvantage of being frontline. I have absolutely no idea what to do with them. They are very strong on paper, but when my opponent knows what she's doing, they always fizzle for me.

-Hellhound: anyone ever bought one?
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #177 on: December 21, 2014, 06:32:08 pm »
0

The first three I rarely get, they seem weak to me. However, I get hellhound quite commonly.

I've been losing a lot of games by miscounting things in some way or another. I've had 7 green for Zemora way to many times...

Meanwhile, if anyone has any advice on the hard boss puzzle I'd appreciate it. It's really bugging me.
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qmech

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #178 on: December 21, 2014, 06:47:50 pm »
+1

But you rarely break your opponent with a Comet, just slow him down, so you need a follow-up plan. In your game, it looks like that plan was an Asteri, which seems fine.

Yes ... plan ...

-Odin
-Cauterizer
-Hannibull
-Hellhound

Odin I think is a big fat wall with the option of burst damage that can force your opponent to overdefend.  Cauterizer I've no idea.  I thought Hannibull should be for rushing, but by the time you have enough of them to kill things they tend to die on the front line.  Hellhound is a faster Tarsier with a nice bonus.
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Rabid

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #179 on: December 21, 2014, 06:50:08 pm »
+1

Meanwhile, if anyone has any advice on the hard boss puzzle I'd appreciate it. It's really bugging me.

Hint: Fast Aggression.
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #180 on: December 21, 2014, 06:53:37 pm »
+2

Meanwhile, if anyone has any advice on the hard boss puzzle I'd appreciate it. It's really bugging me.

Hint: Fast Aggression.
Yep, that's what I've been doing. I even managed to breach and kill the gunbots, but I get breached afterwards because I run out of drones. And I feel I have optimized the build order/engineers.

Here's the best I've been able to do:

DD/DD/DAA/Fang+Rhino/FangEE (leave drone back)/FangE(leave drone back)/Fang(leave 4 drones back)/Breach for 4/Breach for 5 and lose.

EDIT: I did it! Thanks for the help Rabid! (He sent me a PM with another hint)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 07:42:59 pm by liopoil »
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #181 on: December 21, 2014, 06:57:19 pm »
0

Cauterizer sorta combo's with Antima comet for an extra 2 attack when the comet hits. It comes with engineer defenders, but then it can't attech when the engineers are go so meh.

Hellhound does the extra engineers for utility thing better. I don't understand the effect thematically though. Are they saying engineers are devilish?
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #182 on: December 21, 2014, 07:57:09 pm »
+2

-Odin: what are you supposed to do with this guy? I used to click on it all the time, but after some games that slowly turned sour for me, I am starting to think that it might be better to defend with it, especially if it is the highest health unit in the set. Thoughts?

Clicking Odin is something you should generally do only if you're desperate, or you get a great opportunity. It gains you 4 attack this turn, and costs you 1 attack every turn for the rest of the game; it's kinda the inverse of Blood Pact, in a weird way. Odin is usually best treated as a 3/5 with extra breach pressure, where you never click on him but do click his Steelsplitters. In 9avQ6-Yds9Q I had probably won the game already after my Antima Comet hit, but Odin was able to lock things down by soaking 4 damage per turn, with his extra 4-damage breach threat forcing Awaclus to defend for more than I could sustainably attack for.

Quote
-Cauterizer: he's freakishly expensive for two attack (the similarly priced Cynestra has three attack). When is it good? I am "translating" the cumbersome way it works as "At the beginning of your turn, gain 2 attack. You can sacrifice this for 7 health. While this is in play, engineers gain prompt.", which basically makes this a very defensive attacker. It seems kind of awkward to place in your build queue.
$11 for 7 health is a pretty decent defensive deal already, and you get to deal 2 damage for a turn or two as well. In 8wCZu-d9ews, my opponent manages his Engineers very carefully to keep his Cauterizers firing as long as possible, and uses the giant HP buffer to get up a ton of Tarsiers that I can't really threaten to breach even with a Frost Brooder.

Quote
-Hannibull: cheaper than Cauterizers but more expensive than Iceblade Golems. There's only 4 of them, and has the huge disadvantage of being frontline. I have absolutely no idea what to do with them. They are very strong on paper, but when my opponent knows what she's doing, they always fizzle for me.
I have trouble playing with Hannibulls too. They are a decent rusher, if you can put enough pressure on to stop your opponent ever getting 6 attack, but if you can't manage that you are in a lot of trouble. As a frontline unit, it combos well with other frontline units, for example Wild Drone. If you can rely on your beefy frontline units to be hard to kill, you can completely ignore building defense. Hannibull can also be decent in the mid- to late-game where your opponent is getting close to breaching you: he either lets you get away with 2 attack fairly cheaply, or he spends 6 precious damage killing just $9 worth of stuff, which can give your defense a break. In c9aId-zELyn, I get the dream combo of Wild Drone + Hannibull, and just let him chew through my regular Drones, ignoring his Wild Drones to bull-rush (har har) his defenders, preventing him getting any attack up.

Quote
-Hellhound: anyone ever bought one?

Hellhounds are amazing. They only cost a tiny bit more than Tarsiers, and don't have to wait a turn to attack. The extra Engineer is also a huge help in defending these breach-vulnerable units. Really, $5 is the cheapest you can get a unit that attacks for 1 every turn without some disadvantage (eg, Tarsiers don't attack next turn, Rhinos only attack twice, Shredders are frontline...). Hellhounds even come with an advantage! As long as R/B isn't a bad tech choice in the set, Hellhound is a great way to make use of your tech investment when there's nothing else urgent to do. In 9gmQa-sHeFl, for example, I get a second Blastforge early so I can double-Hellhound instead of double-Tarsier; the initial investment of $5 is a bit steep, but pays for itself with the attack efficiency, and helps out later when I need to start getting a lot of Walls.
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #183 on: December 22, 2014, 01:44:42 pm »
0

Meanwhile, if anyone has any advice on the hard boss puzzle I'd appreciate it. It's really bugging me.

Hint: Fast Aggression.
Yep, that's what I've been doing. I even managed to breach and kill the gunbots, but I get breached afterwards because I run out of drones. And I feel I have optimized the build order/engineers.

Here's the best I've been able to do:

DD/DD/DAA/Fang+Rhino/FangEE (leave drone back)/FangE(leave drone back)/Fang(leave 4 drones back)/Breach for 4/Breach for 5 and lose.

EDIT: I did it! Thanks for the help Rabid! (He sent me a PM with another hint)
Thanks for the hint guys. I managed to beat it too. I don't quite remember what I did, but I'm sure I think I started with DD/DD/DAA/Fang+Rhino.

I won while preventing the boss from ever building an Eviscerator
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 02:28:11 pm by markusin »
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #184 on: December 22, 2014, 06:50:57 pm »
0

Rabid's hint was actually to start differently - I'm impressed you managed to do it that way, I couldn't stop him from building eviscerator that way.
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #185 on: December 22, 2014, 07:04:29 pm »
+1

$11 for 7 health is a pretty decent defensive deal already, and you get to deal 2 damage for a turn or two as well.

You realize that you are describing chieftains, right? And that chieftains cost $7? Sure, cauterizers are more flexible (don't have lifespan, etc.), but still...

Quote
Hellhounds are amazing. They only cost a tiny bit more than Tarsiers, and don't have to wait a turn to attack. The extra Engineer is also a huge help in defending these breach-vulnerable units. Really, $5 is the cheapest you can get a unit that attacks for 1 every turn without some disadvantage (eg, Tarsiers don't attack next turn, Rhinos only attack twice, Shredders are frontline...). Hellhounds even come with an advantage! As long as R/B isn't a bad tech choice in the set, Hellhound is a great way to make use of your tech investment when there's nothing else urgent to do. In 9gmQa-sHeFl, for example, I get a second Blastforge early so I can double-Hellhound instead of double-Tarsier; the initial investment of $5 is a bit steep, but pays for itself with the attack efficiency, and helps out later when I need to start getting a lot of Walls.

I am not arguing about the coin cost, which is awesome. I am arguing about the tech cost. Early in the game, if you are buying both an animus and a blastforge, it better be for a very good reason, and hellhounds just don't cut it IMHO. Later in the game, no way you are spending your blue resources into non-prompt two health units. That doesn't leave that many occasions to buy hellhounds.
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #186 on: December 22, 2014, 07:15:29 pm »
+1

$11 for 7 health is a pretty decent defensive deal already, and you get to deal 2 damage for a turn or two as well.

You realize that you are describing chieftains, right? And that chieftains cost $7? Sure, cauterizers are more flexible (don't have lifespan, etc.), but still...

Cauterizers are a lot easier to defend with, because they're not a single 7-health unit. If your opponent attacks for 3, you can lose one Engineer into your Wall, while still attacking with your Cauterizer. But a Chieftain you have to hold back in order to defend with, and then you have to either lose it or not get any absorb at all. Plus if you buy a Chieftain you lose that green you've been storing up, whereas the resources for Cauterizer were disappearing anyway.

Quote
Quote
Hellhounds are amazing. They only cost a tiny bit more than Tarsiers, and don't have to wait a turn to attack. The extra Engineer is also a huge help in defending these breach-vulnerable units. Really, $5 is the cheapest you can get a unit that attacks for 1 every turn without some disadvantage (eg, Tarsiers don't attack next turn, Rhinos only attack twice, Shredders are frontline...). Hellhounds even come with an advantage! As long as R/B isn't a bad tech choice in the set, Hellhound is a great way to make use of your tech investment when there's nothing else urgent to do. In 9gmQa-sHeFl, for example, I get a second Blastforge early so I can double-Hellhound instead of double-Tarsier; the initial investment of $5 is a bit steep, but pays for itself with the attack efficiency, and helps out later when I need to start getting a lot of Walls.

I am not arguing about the coin cost, which is awesome. I am arguing about the tech cost. Early in the game, if you are buying both an animus and a blastforge, it better be for a very good reason, and hellhounds just don't cut it IMHO. Later in the game, no way you are spending your blue resources into non-prompt two health units. That doesn't leave that many occasions to buy hellhounds.

I dunno, red+blue is a pretty reasonable tech choice anyway a lot of the time. Tarsiers behind Walls is like the most standard thing there is.
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #187 on: December 22, 2014, 07:39:59 pm »
0

Rabid's hint was actually to start differently - I'm impressed you managed to do it that way, I couldn't stop him from building eviscerator that way.
Yeah I haven't been able to recreate what I did. I might have started a bit different, but not by much. Still went heavy Shadowfangs at the start or something, but transitioned to walls somehow.

I ended up finding solution online afterwards. It actually had a very different start. like, Animus opening into Tarsiers.
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #188 on: December 22, 2014, 07:44:38 pm »
+1

Cauterizers are a lot easier to defend with, because they're not a single 7-health unit. If your opponent attacks for 3, you can lose one Engineer into your Wall, while still attacking with your Cauterizer. But a Chieftain you have to hold back in order to defend with, and then you have to either lose it or not get any absorb at all. Plus if you buy a Chieftain you lose that green you've been storing up, whereas the resources for Cauterizer were disappearing anyway.

Yeah, I kinda got that, I think we are mostly agreeing. Basically, Cauterizers are defensive units disguised as offensive ones (sorta). Still, the problem remains that they are very hard to place in your build queue... I guess I'll have to think about this one harder.

Quote
I dunno, red+blue is a pretty reasonable tech choice anyway a lot of the time. Tarsiers behind Walls is like the most standard thing there is.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly. Say you are going red+blue, then you need to spend all your blue on defensive units (read: walls), because red units tend to be mmm "fragile". Hellhound doesn't help with that. Sure, if your opponent randomly gives you a turn where you don't need to build defenses, then go ahead and buy yourself a Hellhound and be happy, but how often does that happen?

As an aside, from personal experience, building more than one blastforge with the plan to buy more than one wall per turn is a recipe for disaster. It's expensive, and you better win right there somehow despite spending $10 on defense per turn, or else you'll have a very bad surprise when you run out of walls (which will happen in 5 turns tops).

PS: in case my somewhat argumentative tone would hide it, I really appreciate your pieces of wisdom!
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #189 on: December 22, 2014, 07:53:03 pm »
+2

Cauterizers are a lot easier to defend with, because they're not a single 7-health unit. If your opponent attacks for 3, you can lose one Engineer into your Wall, while still attacking with your Cauterizer. But a Chieftain you have to hold back in order to defend with, and then you have to either lose it or not get any absorb at all. Plus if you buy a Chieftain you lose that green you've been storing up, whereas the resources for Cauterizer were disappearing anyway.

Yeah, I kinda got that, I think we are mostly agreeing. Basically, Cauterizers are defensive units disguised as offensive ones (sorta). Still, the problem remains that they are very hard to place in your build queue... I guess I'll have to think about this one harder.

Quote
I dunno, red+blue is a pretty reasonable tech choice anyway a lot of the time. Tarsiers behind Walls is like the most standard thing there is.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly. Say you are going red+blue, then you need to spend all your blue on defensive units (read: walls), because red units tend to be mmm "fragile". Hellhound doesn't help with that. Sure, if your opponent randomly gives you a turn where you don't need to build defenses, then go ahead and buy yourself a Hellhound and be happy, but how often does that happen?

As an aside, from personal experience, building more than one blastforge with the plan to buy more than one wall per turn is a recipe for disaster. It's expensive, and you better win right there somehow despite spending $10 on defense per turn, or else you'll have a very bad surprise when you run out of walls (which will happen in 5 turns tops).

PS: in case my somewhat argumentative tone would hide it, I really appreciate your pieces of wisdom!

I have a lot of trouble using Cauterizers effectively myself too; I'm describing mostly how I see better players use them. re: Hellhounds being tough because you can't afford to spend the tech on them, I feel like you often get a turn to breathe after building the first Wall, and don't need a second right away. Hellhound can make this effect snowball, by giving you an Engineer and increasing your own attack quickly. Then you'll need to defend a little bit less next turn, because of the Engineer, and can maybe sneak out another Hellhound, et cetera. And I think being able to build two Walls per turn is pretty valuable, as long as you don't have to actually do it right away, because in the endgame you'll actually want to do so. Maybe I'm wrong, though: the $5 for a second Blastforge just to get more efficient Tarsiers might not be worth it early on in most games.
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #190 on: December 22, 2014, 08:43:25 pm »
0

Rabid's hint was actually to start differently - I'm impressed you managed to do it that way, I couldn't stop him from building eviscerator that way.
Yeah I haven't been able to recreate what I did. I might have started a bit different, but not by much. Still went heavy Shadowfangs at the start or something, but transitioned to walls somehow.

I ended up finding solution online afterwards. It actually had a very different start. like, Animus opening into Tarsiers.
Interesting, Rabid's hint was to open animus, but I did not get tarsiers - just rhino and shadowfang
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #191 on: December 22, 2014, 08:44:42 pm »
0

Rabid's hint was actually to start differently - I'm impressed you managed to do it that way, I couldn't stop him from building eviscerator that way.
Yeah I haven't been able to recreate what I did. I might have started a bit different, but not by much. Still went heavy Shadowfangs at the start or something, but transitioned to walls somehow.

I ended up finding solution online afterwards. It actually had a very different start. like, Animus opening into Tarsiers.
Okay, I beat it again with same strategy, and wrote down the log of the first 12 or so turns. It actually was a slightly different opening then what you described first.

Instead of DD/DD/DAA/Fang+Rhino, I used DD/AD/A+Rhino/Fang/Rhino+Fang. I follow up with Fang/Blastforge+Eng/Wall, and I keep the wall alive for the rest of the fight.

Edit: Oh and Rhino's are always clicked early on clicked whenever they'd destroy an additional wall, the ones alive before Turn 12 at least. Even if the extra attack just destroys a light wall, you need as few walls standing as possible to have max breach on the critical turn right before Eviscerator would pop up.

Edit 2: Fixed error/inaccuracy in the edit spoiler.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 09:34:33 pm by markusin »
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mpsprs

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #192 on: December 22, 2014, 09:11:39 pm »
0

I couldn't get your strategy to work markusin.  I never had the time to buy blastforge.  But I managed to stabilize at 5 drones, buying a rhino a turn, doing 10 damage and slowly destroying Vel'kar's forces.  Never bought anything except drones, fangs (4), and rhinos

markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #193 on: December 22, 2014, 09:52:09 pm »
0

I couldn't get your strategy to work markusin.  I never had the time to buy blastforge.  But I managed to stabilize at 5 drones, buying a rhino a turn, doing 10 damage and slowly destroying Vel'kar's forces.  Never bought anything except drones, fangs (4), and rhinos
Okay, so I had bought the blastforge on turn 7 , and with 6 drones. I tried it again and it turns out not to be optimal. You can just buy a Shadowfang on turn 7 instead and defend with a single depleted Rhino. So, you'd be buying blastforge instead of a Shadowfang, but buying the Shadowfang lets you win faster. I just beat it in 15 turns instead of over 20 with the blastforge. At some point you can buy an engineer to produce a 7th drone and build Shadowfang every turn.
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GeoLib

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #194 on: December 23, 2014, 09:47:37 pm »
0

So I beat the hard boss, and I think I used a different strategy than has been mentioned.

I used vivid drones to get to 12$/turn and 2 animusses so I could buy Rhino/Shadowfang every turn. I've now repeated it three times in 15 turns, so I think it's pretty robust.

1st 3 turns:E/D,V/A,V/A and then Fang/Rhino from there on out. Kill shards just to keep it under 6. There's always one turn where I can't quite defend and lose a fang. I think if the AI took out a vivid drone it would actually be worse, since I'd have to switch to rhino/rhino or get rhino/engi/engi and then build back drones or something. Bad news
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GeoLib

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #195 on: December 24, 2014, 02:32:15 am »
0

Ok, could someone point me in the right direction for the advanced defense tactics 5 puzzle? Here are my thoughts so far:

First general premises I'm working with:
1. Other than your big absorber, everything else can just be treated as some number of health to be burned through
2. Therefore, for every defense, I want to use units to get the attack down to 4 and then absorb on a matrix
3. When just losing a unit, it is always better to lose one big unit than two smaller units whose health add up to the same (this does not include the big absorber). So losing a wall is better than losing forcefield/engi


So if one of those is incorrect, that's probably the issue.

For this puzzle in particular:
I just don't see how to do it. I've tried various combinations of defenses. Tried popping or not popping the gauss charges before he can use them. Tried going after some number of venge cannons before finishing of the gauss. I even built a partial decision tree of options that all seem to end in my losing.


Help! What am I missing.


On another note:
Also, I've now gotten to the point that I can beat the 7s master AI with 60s time control, so I'm interested in playing some humans now. If f.ds people want to add me, I'm GeoLib. Would love to play matches against people I know first.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 05:20:16 am by GeoLib »
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Titandrake

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #196 on: December 24, 2014, 05:00:45 am »
0

I started recently, name is Titandrake

I did all the campaign puzzles except for the hard boss, I haven't tried anything else yet. For the defense puzzles in particular, I feel like I got through them by guess-and-checking a lot of it, rather than actually learning how to defend optimally. Ah well...
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qmech

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #197 on: December 24, 2014, 05:05:55 am »
+1

I started recently, name is Titandrake

I did all the campaign puzzles except for the hard boss, I haven't tried anything else yet. For the defense puzzles in particular, I feel like I got through them by guess-and-checking a lot of it, rather than actually learning how to defend optimally. Ah well...

I haven't done the campaign.  "Practical" defense is normally pretty easy: just absorb as much damage as you can.  You're unlikely to get into any complicated endgames where defence is tricky for a long time—most games are decided by a decisive and unavoidable breach at some point that kills a bunch of Tarsiers or something.
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Awaclus

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #198 on: December 24, 2014, 06:57:16 am »
+2

How can I beat Scorchilla games? It looks like whoever gets 2 of them first just basically wins the game because there rarely is a way to absorb 6, and somehow it's always my opponent.
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #199 on: December 24, 2014, 08:13:35 am »
0

How can I beat Scorchilla games? It looks like whoever gets 2 of them first just basically wins the game because there rarely is a way to absorb 6, and somehow it's always my opponent.

I'm no expert, but 6 attack only kills engineer and wall, if you have 2 walls. And then you have 2 turns off before they hit again (for 9 probably).
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