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Author Topic: Prismata  (Read 63690 times)

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qmech

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2014, 05:04:43 am »
+2

I'm probably going to play a lot more matches against the AI before I start ranked play. This is one of those games where it's still very fun to play against bots, so that's a definite benefit.

I also played games against the bots until I was winning most of the time—one nice thing about the bots is that you haven't got the time pressure.  But the experience of playing against other humans is different, and I lost a lot of games very quickly when I jumped on the ladder.  I'm now bobbing around 1300 on the leaderboard.

Let's have some random strategy thoughts:

The official videos are pretty useful.

A lot of my games go like this: build two Drones a turn until your opponent builds a technology building, then build a Blastforge to drop a Wall next turn if they go on the attack.

The equivalent of Big Money (a baseline that uses only units from the base set) is to buy all the Tarsiers.  I find it helpful to think in terms of whether anything forces me to deviate from this strategy.

The special Drones all have different uses.  Vivid Drone is cheap but you can probably only buy one a turn.  Trinity Drone greatly increases you resilience to breaching and is hardly more expensive than the normal Drones (G instead of 1 gold and an energy).  Doomed Drone is really a cheap or free defender that you have to buy a couple of turns in advance of when you need it.  Wild Drone is a much better opener than it looks—it isn't going to die much earlier than your first Wall would, and it gives you an economy boost. You can also buy it as cheap (but not prompt) defence later—if you're opponent kills it every turn then it's 3HPfor 3 gold, and if they don't then you have an economy boost.  Ossified Drone I've never bought, and it doesn't excite me because you rarely have spare Red and if Drones are being attacked you're in a bad shape anyway.  I'm sure it's useful occasionally though.

3 Engineers are arguably cheaper than a Wall.

Centrifuge, the resource pinata, is really good if you're not in danger of being rushed.

Gauss Cannon is almost too expensive to buy.

One Steelsplitter is nice to have over a Wall if you don't need to defend this turn as it gives you the option of attacking in the future whilst still being available to block (after your cheaper Walls) if necessary.

One big turn is much better than several smaller turns because breaching is so good.  So the bombs (Gauss Charge/Pixie) and synchronised periodic attackers are very useful.  The Red one-time freezers are great too because they disable Walls incredibly cheaply.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 05:17:04 am by qmech »
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #101 on: December 14, 2014, 05:59:15 am »
+3

The equivalent of Big Money (a baseline that uses only units from the base set) is to buy all the Tarsiers.  I find it helpful to think in terms of whether anything forces me to deviate from this strategy.

Seems like a good thing to think about, but even in just base set, you can't "just" build all the Tarsiers: you need Walls or something to defend them.

Quote
Ossified Drone I've never bought, and it doesn't excite me because you rarely have spare Red and if Drones are being attacked you're in a bad shape anyway.  I'm sure it's useful occasionally though.

Ossified is my favorite Drone. Vivid is "exciting" in that it enables other strategies well by accelerating your economy, but it's frankly boring: you just mindlessly open Vivids and then have more money than if you didn't. Ossified, on the other hand, keeps things interesting throughout a lot of the game by letting you juggle your leftover red, and defend efficiently with a giant pile of free red "Forcefields". http://www.reddit.com/r/Prismata/comments/2p1yyn/ossified_drone/ is a semi-recent reddit post asking what the heck Ossified is any good for, with a lot of good answers and a link to a recent Ossified game of my own.

Quote
Centrifuge, the resource pinata, is really good if you're not in danger of being rushed.

I'm not so sure about this. Building a Centrifuge takes a long time, and the amount of Drones+tech you have to cut in order to get it out means you often get the unit you were aiming for *later* than if you just teched and droned normally. It's most often useful if there's one or two big units that you really want, but don't want to commit to the tech for all game. For example, it's nice to Centrifuge into Defense Grid with just one Blastforge, rather than having to get three Blastforges and waste a bunch of blue for the rest of the game. But if there's something you want to use a lot of consistently, eg Drake spam, it's better to skip the Centrifuge even if you're not being rushed.
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qmech

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #102 on: December 14, 2014, 06:42:07 am »
0


Seems like a good thing to think about, but even in just base set, you can't "just" build all the Tarsiers: you need Walls or something to defend them.
Yes.

Quote
Ossified is my favorite Drone. Vivid is "exciting" in that it enables other strategies well by accelerating your economy, but it's frankly boring: you just mindlessly open Vivids and then have more money than if you didn't. Ossified, on the other hand, keeps things interesting throughout a lot of the game by letting you juggle your leftover red, and defend efficiently with a giant pile of free red "Forcefields". http://www.reddit.com/r/Prismata/comments/2p1yyn/ossified_drone/ is a semi-recent reddit post asking what the heck Ossified is any good for, with a lot of good answers and a link to a recent Ossified game of my own.
I'm quite sure that I'm underestimating it.  For example, I see now that you don't need to click it for the gold.  It's still not quite "free", as the upfront cost isn't negligible, but I will try to play it when I can.  Thanks for the link.

Quote
I'm not so sure about this. Building a Centrifuge takes a long time, and the amount of Drones+tech you have to cut in order to get it out means you often get the unit you were aiming for *later* than if you just teched and droned normally. It's most often useful if there's one or two big units that you really want, but don't want to commit to the tech for all game. For example, it's nice to Centrifuge into Defense Grid with just one Blastforge, rather than having to get three Blastforges and waste a bunch of blue for the rest of the game. But if there's something you want to use a lot of consistently, eg Drake spam, it's better to skip the Centrifuge even if you're not being rushed.
Perhaps I mean that if there's nothing outstanding that you want to get then it's nice to get a huge selection of whatever in a few turns time rather than building up whatever slowly, as the first few whatevers are just going to run into walls anyway.  I agree that it's much more useful if you want to spike something very expensive.
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #103 on: December 14, 2014, 08:17:18 am »
0

Ossified Drone I've never bought, and it doesn't excite me because you rarely have spare Red and if Drones are being attacked you're in a bad shape anyway.  I'm sure it's useful occasionally though.

What amalloy said. The problem with the ossified drone is to find the right moment to buy it, because you don't want to lose early tempo if you are going red.

Another thing: defending with drones can and will win you the game. You have to know when to do it though.

Quote
3 Engineers are arguably cheaper than a Wall.

Especially since you are somewhat unlikely to run out of Engineers, while running out of Walls is a somewhat common occurrence.

Quote
Centrifuge, the resource pinata, is really good if you're not in danger of being rushed.

Centrifuge is especially good to buy high tech legendaries, like the Centurion. You will get them roughly at the same time as if you had bought all the necessary tech, without actually wasting money on unnecessary blastforges or animus.

Quote
One big turn is much better than several smaller turns because breaching is so good.  So the bombs (Gauss Charge/Pixie) and synchronised periodic attackers are very useful.  The Red one-time freezers are great too because they disable Walls incredibly cheaply.

The other reason one big turn is better than many small turns is because you aren't wasting attack on walls. 0-0-9 attack means 7 attack will actually harm defenders. 3-3-3 means only 3 attack will harm defenders.


Personally, I tend to ignore basic units other than walls, unless I've got spare resources after buying whatever I wanted to buy. It's probably a mistake...
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Kirian

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #104 on: December 14, 2014, 09:08:35 am »
+9

The loading animation is, by the way, pretty fascinating. It's impossible for me to see it for what it really is all the time, no matter how hard I try to.

It is--in my opinion--much more fascinating when done using physical objects:

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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #105 on: December 14, 2014, 01:16:58 pm »
0

completely unrelated, I really want a custom avatar. looks like the only way to get it though is to back the kickstarter with 50$ or more. I might just do that...
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popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #106 on: December 14, 2014, 07:00:38 pm »
0

Am I the only one that thinks Auric impulse and Doomed Drone seem massively underpowered?  Investing gold is important enough that banking gold to gain more gold later doesn't seem worth it.

I guess the clever thing to do with Doomed Drone is to get 2 gold out of it and then block with it the turn before it dies, though.  Hm.  Kinda better than Engineer that way I guess..
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #107 on: December 14, 2014, 07:04:50 pm »
+3

Am I the only one that thinks Auric impulse and Doomed Drone seem massively underpowered?  Investing gold is important enough that banking gold to gain more gold later doesn't seem worth it.

I guess the clever thing to do with Doomed Drone is to get 2 gold out of it and then block with it the turn before it dies, though.  Hm.  Kinda better than Engineer that way I guess..

I think what you mentioned is the primary use of doomed drone. It's a really cheap, delayed 1 defense blocker. Auric impulse is sort of like a drone that costs 5G instead of 3G1E that you can sell back on any turn by just not buying it again.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #108 on: December 14, 2014, 07:09:51 pm »
0

Am I the only one that thinks Auric impulse and Doomed Drone seem massively underpowered?  Investing gold is important enough that banking gold to gain more gold later doesn't seem worth it.

I guess the clever thing to do with Doomed Drone is to get 2 gold out of it and then block with it the turn before it dies, though.  Hm.  Kinda better than Engineer that way I guess..

the way I see it (I could be wrong), auric impulse is never really part of a strategy, unless you define it in a lot of detail, which will mostly not be possible, because you have to react to your opponent. It's just something you do whenever you have 5 gold that you aren't going to spend anyway, which does happen sometimes. But it's not an interesting unit, because it doesn't really change strategy very much.

Doomed drone has 3 uses
-> if you want a really cheap blocker and have time to build it early
-> if you have E2$ left and don't have anything else to buy
-> if you need all of your $ except 1 during your next turn

If you are going for serious income though, it's vastly inferior to a normal drone
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #109 on: December 14, 2014, 09:17:09 pm »
+1

Auric impulse is sort of like a drone that costs 5G instead of 3G1E that you can sell back on any turn by just not buying it again.

That's a really cool way to think of Auric Impulse. I've been thinking of it as more like "a way to avoid committing to building a Drone", because you can buy it, then build a Drone, which has the same effect as just building a Drone to begin with, except that you can change your mind about droning if something else becomes more urgent.

the way I see it (I could be wrong), auric impulse is never really part of a strategy, unless you define it in a lot of detail, which will mostly not be possible, because you have to react to your opponent. It's just something you do whenever you have 5 gold that you aren't going to spend anyway, which does happen sometimes. But it's not an interesting unit, because it doesn't really change strategy very much.

You're mostly right that Auric is not much of a strategic unit, being rather more tactical in that you usually buy it opportunistically to increase short-term flexibility. But there are a couple units that synergize well with Auric Impulse, enough that its presence might sway your overall plan towards them: Antima Comet and Iso Kronus. Both of these units have the unusual property of encouraging you to save up money rather than droning: with Iso, you want as much gold as possible every other turn, so you can grow your Iso stack while keeping it in sync; and with Antima, you want to build as many Engineers as possible next turn, meaning you can afford to float ten or fifteen gold for one turn. In both cases, a Drone would be much worse than an Auric Impulse, because it costs you two gold for the critical turn, and the returns you get back on future turns may not be worth it.

9avQ6-Yds9Q is the most recent game I played, in which I happened to use Auric Impulse effectively against Awaclus: I built two of them on the turn before my Antima hit, effectively gaining a free Engineer (and a free damage) that I couldn't have gotten without Auric Impule. I could even have gotten one more damage out if I'd build another Auric on turn 4 instead of Engineer+Drone. Maybe that's right, I dunno; it gains me an Engineer and a damage, at the expense of a Drone. Seems close, but in real life I didn't even think of it until I was writing up this post.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 10:39:14 pm by amalloy »
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #110 on: December 14, 2014, 11:40:03 pm »
0

completely unrelated, I really want a custom avatar. looks like the only way to get it though is to back the kickstarter with 50$ or more. I might just do that...
Just did this myself. I did the $56 pledge, which also comes with the Prismata soundtrack. Yeah, I liked the groove of the Prismata music.
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Temron

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #111 on: December 15, 2014, 08:56:28 am »
0

If anyone is interested I am going live @ twitch.tv/azizqistemron to do a more beginner stream without music so that it can be viewed later. I should be starting in about 5 minutes.

Edit: Done streaming.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 03:27:48 pm by Temron »
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #112 on: December 15, 2014, 05:36:56 pm »
0

Temron and I will be doing a stream tonight at 8:00 Pacific time (5 1/2 hours from the time of this post) intended to be accessible to Dominion folks. So if you're interested in the game but haven't tried it, or have played but are having trouble beating the bots or whatever, please stop by http://twitch.tv/amalloy and check it out. We'll be playing a slow-paced game with plenty of explanation and answering viewer questions.

Maybe we'll even commentate on some viewer games and/or coach if you want to join us on Skype? Who knows, sky's the limit! Let us know what you want to see.
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #113 on: December 15, 2014, 11:03:38 pm »
0

Temron and I will be doing a stream tonight at 8:00 Pacific time (5 1/2 hours from the time of this post) intended to be accessible to Dominion folks. So if you're interested in the game but haven't tried it, or have played but are having trouble beating the bots or whatever, please stop by http://twitch.tv/amalloy and check it out. We'll be playing a slow-paced game with plenty of explanation and answering viewer questions.

Maybe we'll even commentate on some viewer games and/or coach if you want to join us on Skype? Who knows, sky's the limit! Let us know what you want to see.

Due to some technical difficulties, we're at http://www.twitch.tv/azizqistemron instead. Starting now!
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #114 on: December 16, 2014, 03:08:16 pm »
0

Gave this a try today, and yeah, it's a little too much fun. I made it to tier II with 3 wins. Though, two of those wins were due to my opponent resigning when it wasn't clear at all to me that I was going to win.
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2014, 03:35:54 pm »
0

I just played a super epic game that I somehow managed to win, and I feel so stupidly proud of myself that I am going to share the replay.
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2014, 03:40:06 pm »
+1

I just played a super epic game that I somehow managed to win, and I feel so stupidly proud of myself that I am going to share the replay.
Woah, that's a lot of conduits...
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2014, 03:47:24 pm »
+1

I just played a super epic game that I somehow managed to win, and I feel so stupidly proud of myself that I am going to share the replay.
Woah, that's a lot of conduits...

I heard that and loaded up the replay, expecting to say "Well that's a Zemora game for you...". But no, apparently it is a Chieftain/Venge Cannon game? I think this was a few too many Conduits.
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2014, 03:53:21 pm »
0

I just played a super epic game that I somehow managed to win, and I feel so stupidly proud of myself that I am going to share the replay.
Woah, that's a lot of conduits...

Probably I overdid it slightly, but two of them were locked buying chieftains, and I wanted to be able to go heavy venge cannon at some point (3 green to buy, 3 green to activate), so I kinda needed lots, and there's just so much time to think what you are doing.

I'm pretty sure I would have lost this if my opponent had gone red instead of green after buying Odin. He spent half the game smashing himself against chieftains that were going to die anyway, had a large economic advantage, and I wasn't pressuring him that much, so he could have swarmed me with bloodragers long before I got to the venge cannons.

But hey, victory is mine!
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jonts26

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #119 on: December 16, 2014, 10:56:33 pm »
0

So I just played a really fun game. First time I won with Zemora, even though I'm sure I played suboptimally. Really close and it came down to some really tricky defensive tactics. Any thoughts on how to improve?

AvgIm-R9O5s
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2014, 11:57:19 pm »
+2

So I just played a really fun game. First time I won with Zemora, even though I'm sure I played suboptimally. Really close and it came down to some really tricky defensive tactics. Any thoughts on how to improve?

AvgIm-R9O5s

The Blastforge into Flame Animus is a little questionable: you will want to build a lot of Tarsiers, and against an opponent who is trying to build this much economy, you'd like to apply pressure quickly, and a real Animus lets you get more Tarsiers sooner. You'd have to cut a drone, though, so the Flame Animus seems okay. The turn after that, though, I don't like building two drones or an Electrovore. I'd cut the drones for an Animus: three Tarsiers per turn is a lot of pressure for just a little money, and your economy is already pretty big; you just need to do short-term things now to help you survive until Zemora arrives, not invest in more gold income.

I'd also switch the Electrovore for a Tarsier: your opponent can get rid of all your Engineers in a big hurry if he wants to, and the Tarsier will deal damage. On the other hand, you did well to just accept this by defending with your Electrovore immediately, so maybe you got a great bargain by building a 4R Rhino.

On turn 9, I don't like the Forcefield. Just build a Barrier, and be prepared to sacrifice a Steelsplitter in the unlikely event your opponent attacks with everything. When you Forcefield, you commit to losing the Drone regardless, while your opponent gets to keep some units back on defense.

On turn 10, the second Animus is very bad: are you really hoping to spend over $20 on red in a single turn? There aren't even five Tarsiers left in the supply. Cut it for a Gauss Cannon or something, and put up a Barrier as well just to increase your defensive flexibility. As it happens, when he attacks for max the Barrier will go unused, but that's not a big deal: you will be wrecking him quite soon, and can afford an insurance policy as cheap as 1G.

On turn 11, you overdefended by one, because he can't possibly keep enough Engineers to fire all his Electrovores, even if he sacs the Wall instead of absorbing. Cut a Forcefield and replace it with Barrier.

None of these mistakes really cost you anything, because your opponent had a very bad plan: you can't just drone up against Zemora, you have to apply pressure to win before Zemora can save the day, or sometimes you can do okay getting your own Zemora. Overall I would say the mistake you made the most often was underutilizing Barrier: you have a giant pile of green available, which means that Barrier's cost is practically just a single gold. Often, you built a Forcefield when a Barrier would do; even two Barriers only costs one more gold than a Forcefield, while saving you a Drone and adding defensive flexibility.
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assemble_me

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #121 on: December 17, 2014, 04:31:57 am »
0

I guess, it's really worth it to try this game yourself if you're just a little interested.
I've started yesterday, I quite enjoy it.

I played a couple of games against the weakest bots before noticing that after the first five tutorials, there's also a second page of tutorials.
Can anyone help me with this newbie question about "Defense training 3"? (not the advanced one, actually the "normal" third one?)

I'm pretty sure you want to keep those units with the largest hitpoints and you want to kill enemy attackers that deal the most damage compared to their hitpoints when breaching. That said, I'm killing enemy Tarsiers first. The AI attacks with Gauss Cannons and Tarsiers himself. I'm losing my Engineers first, keeping my walls. But in the end, my walls are gone and I can't kill his Gauss Cannons fast enough.

Is that actually winnable, or do I have to think outside the box somehow? I tried to do something different, like trying to save an Engineer early on instead of the second Wall, or to attack the enemy Gauss Cannons earlier, but the only thing I've noticed was that I'm losing faster.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 04:35:45 am by assemble_me »
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #122 on: December 17, 2014, 04:41:49 am »
+1

I guess, it's really worth it to try this game yourself if you're just a little interested.
I've started yesterday, I quite enjoy it.

I played a couple of games against the weakest bots before noticing that after the first five tutorials, there's also a second page of tutorials.
Can anyone help me with this newbie question about "Defense training 3"? (not the advanced one, actually the "normal" third one?)

I'm pretty sure you want to keep those units with the largest hitpoints and you want to kill enemy attackers that deal the most damage compared to their hitpoints when breaching. That said, I'm killing enemy Tarsiers first. The AI attacks with Gauss Cannons and Tarsiers himself. I'm losing my Engineers first, keeping my walls. But in the end, my walls are gone and I can't kill his Gauss Cannons fast enough.

Is that actually winnable, or do I have to think outside the box somehow? I tried to do something different, like trying to save an Engineer early on instead of the second Wall, or to attack the enemy Gauss Cannons earlier, but the only thing I've noticed was that I'm losing faster.

Hint: in a given turn, maximizing the amount of damage absorbed is important, but sometimes minimizing the number of units that you lose to an attack can be more important. If your opponent is consistently dealing, say, 3 damage, you are happier with a wall and two engineers than with two walls.
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #123 on: December 17, 2014, 04:42:53 am »
+3

I guess, it's really worth it to try this game yourself if you're just a little interested.
I've started yesterday, I quite enjoy it.

I played a couple of games against the weakest bots before noticing that after the first five tutorials, there's also a second page of tutorials.
Can anyone help me with this newbie question about "Defense training 3"? (not the advanced one, actually the "normal" third one?)

I'm pretty sure you want to keep those units with the largest hitpoints and you want to kill enemy attackers that deal the most damage compared to their hitpoints when breaching. So while I'm trying this, I'm killing enemy Tarsiers first. The AI attacks with Gauss Cannons and Tarsiers himself. I'm losing my Engineers first, keeping my walls. But in the end, my walls are gone and I can't kill his Gauss Cannons fast enough.

Is that actually winnable, or do I have to think outside the box somehow? I tried to do something different, like trying to save an Engineer early on instead of the second Wall, or to attack the enemy Gauss Cannons earlier, but the only thing I've noticed was that I'm losing faster.

A general tactic you can apply to these defense puzzles goes like this:

  • First, figure out the right order to attack the enemy units. Here, it's easy: Tarsiers, then Tarsier+Gauss, then Gauss forever. Count up how many turns this will take to kill him. Here that's 9 turns.
  • Next, list how much he is attacking for on those 9 turns. He'll attack for 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1.
  • Finally, figure out how to budget your defense to survive the attacks he'll be making.

I don't want to spoil it with too much detail, but I think if you apply this plan and think about it, you can come up with the answer. And if you have trouble, here's a hint: the only interesting decision happens during your very first turn defending.
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #124 on: December 17, 2014, 04:22:24 pm »
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Lost a game to the "stealth" update. Didn't notice that Deadeye costed more, and didn't notice that now it can attack.

You probably want to check the news for the other changes if you had started getting acquainted with the units.
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