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Author Topic: Prismata  (Read 63694 times)

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Kirian

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2014, 12:38:23 pm »
0

starcraft... has luck in it. a lot. trust me.

With absolutely perfect play, there is no luck in SC.  Every unit can theoretically be microed to inflict maximum damage while taking minimal damage.  Obviously this would only be achievable by an AI that can do 100k APM or more, but it would completely remove all luck.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2014, 12:59:49 pm »
0

starcraft... has luck in it. a lot. trust me.

With absolutely perfect play, there is no luck in SC.  Every unit can theoretically be microed to inflict maximum damage while taking minimal damage.  Obviously this would only be achievable by an AI that can do 100k APM or more, but it would completely remove all luck.

no. if you have, for example, a big map in, say, a terran mirror, there are basically only three viable openings. CC first, A safe expand, and a double proxy rax.

Double proxy rax will win vs CC first. You can argue about perfect micro, but if you're gonna do that then both sides have to have perfect micro, and then it doesn't really change anything. A safe expansion will more or less auto win vs proxy raxes, although you can't immediately attack or anything, you're just miles ahead. And CC will have a significant although not game ending edge over a safe expand. this is slightly simplified, but not much. you can't talk yourself out of the fact that you have a rock paper scissors scenario, and you really get similar things all the time in sc2.

And aside from that, I also don't think you can just assume both people have perfect micro, because they don't. say you play a zerg mirror, your opponent has a crawler in his expansion. You can now try to sneak in 4 banelings in his eco line. If he doesn't look, you more or less won the game. If he does look, you wasted like 300 resources for almost nothing. There is of course a counter argument here: it's not really luck, and you can do similar things in chess, do a dangerous thing and hope your opponent doesn't notice; that's not luck, but it's his skill. But it's different, really, because for most players, looking or not looking at your eco line at a certain moment is really just luck. They maybe check there every 5 seconds, and that either happens to be the right moment or it doesn't.

And an even simpler example are the random spawning positions. Zerg larva spawns from the bottom of the hatchery; if the mineral patches are below the hatch, the distance for newly spawned drones is shorter. Also, if there are multiple spawning options for your opponent, it's also luck where you scout first.

so, tl;dr sc2 has a lot of luck. Broodwar has less, because it's a 10000 times better game, but it doesn't have zero. And broodwar actually does have some other luck elements based on the bugs that were allowed to be and were more or less integrated as strategies in the game. The reaver shots, for example, are bugged, and sometimes take way too long to do damage or just don't do damage if the targeted unit is running away or on a higher platform. And it has broken pathfinding that leads to units going in directions that might not be random in the most theoretical sense, but are totally random for the players.

so, starcraft has luck. that's completely out of question.
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popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2014, 01:13:31 pm »
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It's a matter of semantics that most people don't refer to double blind rock paper scissors interactions as luck.  It is a similar source in variance of outcome it's just not popular to use the word luck to refer to it no matter how similar the impact is to luck.
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2014, 01:28:03 pm »
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Not really relevant, but Broodwar did have a random hit chance thing going on when attacking units on higher ground. SC2 removed that mechanic, and replaced it with ground units having no vision on higher ground.

But yeah the random spawn points for each player is a big source of luck in sc2. It affects how early you scout your opponent. Blizzard deliberately chose to always have 4 player maps used in 2 player ladder to nerf worker proxy strategies.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2014, 03:13:32 pm »
+1

I like the game, but it's super-mathy, which I think is a downside.
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popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #80 on: December 13, 2014, 04:06:06 pm »
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I like the game, but it's super-mathy, which I think is a downside.

What do you mean by super mathy?  All games are pure mathematics so that's not much of a statement at all.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #81 on: December 13, 2014, 04:11:29 pm »
+1

I like the game, but it's super-mathy, which I think is a downside.

What do you mean by super mathy?  All games are pure mathematics so that's not much of a statement at all.

uhh that's not true. mafia e.g. is not maths. unless you say psychology ⊂ maths
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #82 on: December 13, 2014, 04:51:23 pm »
+2

What's the standard kingdom size for vs.?  Base plus 5, plus 8, or grandmaster? I wanna practice vs. bots using the most relevant setting.

I was curious what grandmaster was and googled it. It's just one specific set, apparently they want to see what happens if they pick one set and let people play that a long. how long will they need to figure it out completely? at least I think that's the reason, it makes a lot of sense.

so, it can only be either +5 or +8. I'm strongly guessing it's +8. I only play that, because it's just more fun.

The top players all seem to play both +5 and +8 competitively. My understanding of the way they play out is that +5 is actually more likely to be won by the most-skilled player, because there is usually a dominant strategy that's not hard to see, and then the stronger player's superior execution matters a lot. In +8, there are more viable strategies, which may have some rock/paper/scissors interactions or whatever, increasing the variance.

I heard a rumor that the grandmaster set was an experiment that failed, in that nobody is playing it at all, and will be removed in a future version.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #83 on: December 13, 2014, 05:12:02 pm »
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Doesn't fog of war add luck?
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blueblimp

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #84 on: December 13, 2014, 05:54:30 pm »
+1

It's easier to just say that Starcraft mostly doesn't have RNG, that is, random number generation by the computer, with the exceptions of starting positions and Brood War's high ground mechanic. The primary sources of luck come from hidden information, human limitations, and chaos.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 07:24:08 pm by blueblimp »
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2014, 07:19:06 pm »
+1

The loading animation is, by the way, pretty fascinating. It's impossible for me to see it for what it really is all the time, no matter how hard I try to.
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2014, 09:20:43 pm »
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The loading animation is, by the way, pretty fascinating. It's impossible for me to see it for what it really is all the time, no matter how hard I try to.

It actually made the front page of /r/gifs last week, and Elyot gave away the source code for anyone who wants to play with it: http://np.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/2on8si/connecting_to_server_so_mesmerizing/cmow0sz
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2014, 10:10:26 pm »
0

The loading animation is, by the way, pretty fascinating. It's impossible for me to see it for what it really is all the time, no matter how hard I try to.
My experience with optical illusions makes me believe that the animation can be done with particles moving up and down in a very coordinated way.

I like the in-game music a lot actually.
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2.71828.....

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2014, 10:18:13 pm »
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I have been playing all day, backed it, got the key, and am officially terrible.  Haha.

I guess I was stuck in the 10s for a long time playing Dominion until I got good.
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jonts26

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2014, 10:20:15 pm »
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Turns out I'm pretty terrible too. Played some humans for the first time today, hasn't been going great. Where do people go to learn strategy?
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2.71828.....

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #90 on: December 13, 2014, 10:21:44 pm »
0

also, username is the-number-e
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Awaclus

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #91 on: December 13, 2014, 10:24:54 pm »
+2

Turns out I'm pretty terrible too. Played some humans for the first time today, hasn't been going great. Where do people go to learn strategy?
Playing more.
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #92 on: December 13, 2014, 10:30:19 pm »
+1

Where do people go to learn strategy?
prismatastrategy.com
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #93 on: December 13, 2014, 10:31:49 pm »
+2

Where do people go to learn strategy?
prismatastrategy.com
Turns out I'm pretty terrible too. Played some humans for the first time today, hasn't been going great. Where do people go to learn strategy?
Playing more.
Do you all realize that it upon us to discover strategies for ourselves? It's like the start of Dominion all over again.

Then again, the leaderboard seems to be full of names I don't recognize. What if there's a secret f.PS where they scoff at us?
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #94 on: December 13, 2014, 10:33:14 pm »
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Where do people go to learn strategy?
prismatastrategy.com
I totally checked to see if it was a real thing.
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jonts26

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #95 on: December 13, 2014, 10:37:58 pm »
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Every game feels like rock, paper, scissors and I'm throwing first.
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mpsprs

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #96 on: December 13, 2014, 11:02:27 pm »
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Turns out I'm pretty terrible too. Played some humans for the first time today, hasn't been going great. Where do people go to learn strategy?

I'm a proud member of the "has yet to beat a human" club.  But I beat the adept bot pretty consistently, and the master bot sometimes, so that's something.

markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #97 on: December 13, 2014, 11:37:02 pm »
0

Every game feels like rock, paper, scissors and I'm throwing first.
I feel like the hybrid units that require more than one type of resource allow the players at least some opportunity to conceal their intentions.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 11:38:18 pm by markusin »
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #98 on: December 13, 2014, 11:47:27 pm »
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I'm hearing a lot of new players struggling in here. I'm no expert, but I've been playing for several weeks and winning more than I lose, with a rating in the low 1400s; I'd be happy to help out. Would anyone like a coaching session on Skype, streamed on twitch for anyone else who wants to ask questions or just listen in? If so, PM me your Skype name and we can set up a call. I'm available for the next several hours tonight, at least.
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2014, 01:33:02 am »
+1

I've played maybe 30-40 bot games so far--and beaten the 3s Masterbot a few times. There is definitely a ton to this game though. The devs are very high level players, but from the way they talk, there is still much about their gameplay they think they can improve on. I like games like this though, because there is something to work towards that is not easily achievable.

From the games I've played so far, I feel like getting some early aggro and forcing the opponent into a defensive position normally wins me the game. Most of these are somewhat low-level bot matches, so not sure if this translates as much into fighting a human opponent. It's more expensive to play defensively, and you will eventually run out of seeds and be overrun. I read that they specifically made things this way in order to avoid turtling as a viable strategy, because it's not that interesting. I feel like shifting the game state such that you are the aggressor and your opponent has to spend more of their resources to defend their economy instead of gaining attack power normally leads to a win. Of course, some units change this, but generally, the majority of my games have played out this way.

I've also played games where me (or the bot) plays more defensively while building up a superior economy before focusing on offense. I feel like this is a pretty good strategy if there's no way for your opponent to build up attack power quickly (Tia Thurnax, etc).

I don't know if this stuff is like super obvious to everyone else, but it took me a little to figure this out. I'm probably going to play a lot more matches against the AI before I start ranked play. This is one of those games where it's still very fun to play against bots, so that's a definite benefit. Prismata is so interesting with the similarities it shares with the games they credit (Chess, Dominion, Starcraft). I've never played Magic, but am familiar with the rules. It's very fun how Prismata forces you to think in different ways and consider strategies that are parallel to those in other games.

The Prismata subreddit is fairly active, but I'd rather discuss strategy here with people I know and trust ;). Its still a good resource for strategy though. Especially at this point, when there isn't a ginormous playerbase yet.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 01:34:06 am by Ichimaru Gin »
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