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Author Topic: Prismata  (Read 56550 times)

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amalloy

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Prismata
« on: December 03, 2014, 02:18:54 am »
+12

Prismata is a really interesting game that appeared on the horizon recently, and just a couple weeks ago alpha access became available to the general public via a Kickstarter reward tier. I picked it up and have been having a great time. I don't imagine every Dominion player will love Prismata, but a lot of them seem to, and I was surprised to see nobody discussing it here.

I recommend watching the Kickstarter rules-intro video, which does a good job of explaining the mechanics, but I'll also make my own effort at summarizing the game. They used to call it MCDS, for Magic-Chess-Dominion-Starcraft, and you can really see the influence of all four of those games clearly.

  • Like MtG, you're building up a board of attackers and defenders that you use to damage your opponent's board.
  • But instead of constructed decks, the game starts Dominion-style, with similar starting boards and a "base set" of 11 standard units purchasable every game (analogous to Coppers, Silvers, and so on), and an additional random set of "kingdom cards" either player can buy this game.
  • And there are no decks, indeed no randomness or hidden information at all: like chess, every turn can be planned ahead of time, if you can think fast enough (hint: you can't). I get the feeling that this is a turn-off for Dominion fans, which I totally get: removing the randomness is a definite trade-off that some people might not like. I wasn't sure at first, and of course I still appreciate randomness in card games, but it's also nice to have Prismata available as a choice where I am really in charge of my own destiny.
  • Last, it's like Starcraft in that you're balancing economy, technology, attacking, and defending; and because you have to make tactical decisions about what units to trade for what, the timings to attack at, and stuff like that.

I'd say if you like at least two of those games, Prismata is worth at least checking out; there's a free single-player-only demo you can try if any of this sounds interesting but you don't want to immediately buy it. If any of you do decide to try it, I'd be happy to play some games with you: I'm Mountebank in game.
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Titandrake

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2014, 03:31:01 am »
+1

I've heard good things about Prismata. I remember reading a blog post a while back when they decided to start working on the game full time (I am a Facebook friend of a friend of the developers and it showed up on my News Feed.)

They claimed it was the best card game in existence, which I have trouble believing, but I'm sure it's still very good, since most math PhD pursuers I know play an oddly large number of board games, meaning the makers can at least recognize quality. I've yet to hear anyone say something bad about the balance of the game, so that's a plus too.

Anyways, I'm definitely interested in trying it out, but it probably won't be until after my finals in a couple of weeks.
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blueblimp

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2014, 11:59:55 am »
0

I know the devs and was involved in some very early play-testing (back before the client even existed), so it's cool to see this picking up buzz recently. In my view, the key idea of Prismata is bringing recent game design innovations to the non-random no-hidden-information genre of Chess and Go. For example, the random kingdom mechanic injects variety into the matches and reduces the importance of memorizing openings.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2014, 01:07:10 pm »
0

Chess960 is worth mentioning as a chess variant that adds setup randomness for exactly that reason. It was invented by Bobby Fischer in 1996.

Prismata sounds interesting. I'll look into it more!
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2014, 04:21:12 am »
0

First Google maps, and now you enticing indie game?  Why is the internet suddenly telling me to upgrade my laptop?
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Kirian

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2014, 09:50:40 am »
0

Well fuck, there goes the remainder of my free time.
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Kirian

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2014, 12:38:17 pm »
+2

Holy shit.

I just... holy shit.  Why is this not already funded?  Why is this not on every gaming news site?  Why isn't this bigger?

I haven't been this psyched for a game since I first touched Dominion.

Listen.  Seriously, you guys have to try this.  As soon as you have half an hour, you must go try this.  Go click on the demo.  Watch the video if you think you need to, but I think any Dominion or HS player can sit down at the screen and figure things out immediately.  Go.  Just... go do it.

Amalloy, I'm Kirian there... I can't figure out how to add friends yet though.

Edit:  Figured it out.  Friended!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 12:53:02 pm by Kirian »
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2014, 01:20:34 pm »
0

I've played the complete demo. Seems interesting but mmm I'm not as hyped as Kirian is (which is not saying much). It's kinda lacking the combo factor for me.

It wasn't entirely clear in the demo, how many "kingdom" cards are there? I get the first page is the common pool for all games, but do you "only" play with 5 extra cards in the full game? How many different cards are there?

Another question: the Kickstarter reward levels are super confusing. What exactly do you get for 1CAD (one Canadian Dollar)?
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theory

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2014, 01:56:30 pm »
+2

Backed at the supporter level.  The creators seem like gigantic douchebags (I have no idea if they actually are, but oh my god their bio page was nauseating) but the game was fun.
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2014, 02:21:56 pm »
0

I've played the complete demo. Seems interesting but mmm I'm not as hyped as Kirian is (which is not saying much). It's kinda lacking the combo factor for me.

It wasn't entirely clear in the demo, how many "kingdom" cards are there? I get the first page is the common pool for all games, but do you "only" play with 5 extra cards in the full game? How many different cards are there?

Another question: the Kickstarter reward levels are super confusing. What exactly do you get for 1CAD (one Canadian Dollar)?

In custom matches, you can play with Base+0 up to Base+11, your choice. In competitive play, you can choose Base+5 or Base+8. The total pool of kingdom cards is like 70 right now, and more are being designed: they've added three in the two weeks I've been playing.

For 1CAD I think you basically get a "thanks, mate". Supporter tier is the first tier where you get an alpha key.
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theory

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2014, 02:25:29 pm »
0

Also I'm worried about the comeback mechanics in this game, or rather, the lack thereof.  It feels like a game where you build up, and one person breaches and wins, and then has a few turns of finishing up the game while the other person sobs.  I don't know how you're supposed to come back from a setback.

There's also no apparent adjustment for p1 advantage.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2014, 02:32:24 pm »
0

Yeah, it's the kind of game where if you're far behind, it's best to just resign and try again, kinda like Starcraft.

The adjustment for P1 advantage is that P2 starts with an extra Drone.
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2014, 03:30:20 pm »
+6

Also I'm worried about the comeback mechanics in this game, or rather, the lack thereof.  It feels like a game where you build up, and one person breaches and wins, and then has a few turns of finishing up the game while the other person sobs.  I don't know how you're supposed to come back from a setback.

There's also no apparent adjustment for p1 advantage.

The lack of comeback in breach-vulnerable games is a big time savings: instead of "sobbing", you just resign because you've clearly lost. I wish this happened more in Dominion games, but instead games that are clearly over keep going on for another twenty minutes because "well if my opponent stalls three turns in a row and I get perfect draws...". You can also play a breach-ambivalent strategy, by getting a lot of resilient green units. See http://play.prismata.net/?r=VltKD-YhIxM, for example, where Temron threatens big breach potential with Frost Brooders: I elect to open the doors and just let him into my Drone line, basing my military might on sturdy Gauss Cannons so I can keep applying pressure while being breached.

P1 and P2 are well balanced, in an interesting way, because it's very symmetric. P2 starts with one extra Drone, so it's 6/7. If P1 doesn't like his position, he can opt to "become player 2" by buying two Drones (as happens almost every game) and starting 8/7 instead of 6/7. Usually at this point P2 buys two Drones and it's 8/9...at some point, someone decides it's more important to be aggressive than to build, which kinda makes them the effective player 1.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 03:34:13 pm by amalloy »
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Kirian

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2014, 04:45:35 pm »
0

I just played a game (vs AI) where we both breached each other at the same time, which creates a base-race situation, much like what happens in Starcraft when both players' economies drop to zero.

And hey, replays if you have access!  kOaQi-ovGa5
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 04:49:47 pm by Kirian »
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2014, 04:55:45 pm »
+2

I just played a game (vs AI) where we both breached each other at the same time, which creates a base-race situation, much like what happens in Starcraft when both players' economies drop to zero.

And hey, replays if you have access!  kOaQi-ovGa5

Anyone can watch a replay, without an alpha key. Here's yours: http://play.prismata.net/?r=kOaQi-ovGa5 - you can get this from the Replay tab: it's the "Get Link" button.
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theory

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2014, 06:53:35 pm »
+2

Finally had a game against a human where I didn't embarrass myself!

http://play.prismata.net/?r=XC08U-jQPwa
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Kirian

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 08:07:53 pm »
+1

I do wish they had used something other than Flash, though.  Flash is so... 2005?
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theory

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2014, 10:23:30 am »
+1

I don't know why I'm so bad.  I feel like when I start off attacking, MasterBot just puts up a wall and then builds his own attack overrunning me.  But when I try to do that, he overruns me and I'm just nonstop building walls and can't afford any offense. 

Example: http://play.prismata.net/?r=o8pnF-zZY6U

I start off aggressive and he just puts up a wall and ignores me, eventually overrunning me.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2014, 11:12:04 am »
0

Does anyone know if they plan to go mobile? No way I'm buying a computer game when the only time I really sit at a computer any more is at work.
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2014, 03:02:11 pm »
+1

I don't know why I'm so bad.  I feel like when I start off attacking, MasterBot just puts up a wall and then builds his own attack overrunning me.  But when I try to do that, he overruns me and I'm just nonstop building walls and can't afford any offense. 

Example: http://play.prismata.net/?r=o8pnF-zZY6U

I start off aggressive and he just puts up a wall and ignores me, eventually overrunning me.

I'm no expert (you can find some on /r/prismata), but Tesla aggression looked like a reasonable counter to his heavy-economy opening. The execution looked non-committal, though: you kept droning, when you already have enough to churn out Teslas and Engineers forever; and then you built an Animus: you don't really have the economy to support all that tech. All this diversification takes off the pressure of your Tesla rush, giving your more-economic opponent plenty of time to outpace you.

Suggested changes: on your turn 3, you built BDD, leaving you with 13 gold for turn 4. That means you won't be able to afford Tesla+Conduit, which is what you really need to be able to Tesla forever. I'd recommend cutting a Drone, just building BD, so that you can Tesla+Drone on turn 4, and then follow up with more Tesla+Engineers. This is enough aggression that your opponent really can't make use of all the tech he's built: he has to defend himself. He can maybe get out two Tarsiers, but those are slow enough that you can just build a Wall once you've got enough Tesla pressure.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 06:16:34 pm by amalloy »
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2014, 06:32:51 pm »
+2

I don't know why I'm so bad.  I feel like when I start off attacking, MasterBot just puts up a wall and then builds his own attack overrunning me.  But when I try to do that, he overruns me and I'm just nonstop building walls and can't afford any offense. 

Example: http://play.prismata.net/?r=o8pnF-zZY6U

I start off aggressive and he just puts up a wall and ignores me, eventually overrunning me.

I'm no expert (you can find some on /r/prismata), but Tesla aggression looked like a reasonable counter to his heavy-economy opening. The execution looked non-committal, though: you kept droning, when you already have enough to churn out Teslas and Engineers forever; and then you built an Animus: you don't really have the economy to support all that tech. All this diversification takes off the pressure of your Tesla rush, giving your more-economic opponent plenty of time to outpace you.

Suggested changes: on your turn 3, you built BDD, leaving you with 13 gold for turn 4. That means you won't be able to afford Tesla+Conduit, which is what you really need to be able to Tesla forever. I'd recommend cutting a Drone, just building BD, so that you can Tesla+Drone on turn 4, and then follow up with more Tesla+Engineers. This is enough aggression that your opponent really can't make use of all the tech he's built: he has to defend himself. He can maybe get out two Tarsiers, but those are slow enough that you can just build a Wall once you've got enough Tesla pressure.

Some elaboration on this advice: somewhere in the tutorial or a new-player guide, it's recommended to, in most games, build like 10-15 Drones, and then stop droning: building up an "economy" of attackers can be much more efficient than a real economy of Drones, in that it forces your opponent to spend money every turn to defend.

For example, in this game, your first Tesla Coil isn't very effective: it costs you an Engineer per turn, and your opponent an Engineer per turn because he can absorb the rest on his Wall. But every Tesla Coil after that is very valuable: he has to build a Wall per turn to defend, while you just have to build an Engineer to keep it powered. So each Tesla Coil is, in a way, worth as much as three Drones and a Blastforge: it lets you spend 2 gold each turn in order to cost your opponent 5 and a blue, for a net gain of 3+B. Efficiency like this is how an aggressive strategy defeats heavy economy; trying to catch up on economy yourself is not nearly as effective, because you're not positioned to do so.

Once you get your third Tesla Coil up, your opponent probably has trouble even treading water, and then you can put off the fourth Tesla to diversify: build a Wall if he's gotten some attackers, or maybe drone up, or get that Animus you've been looking at, to add in Sentinels; or switch into Chieftains since you've already got the tech for it. The important thing is to do all this only after you've put some real pressure on your opponent: one Tesla Coil is no pressure at all, but three is a lot.
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Kirian

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2014, 09:52:03 pm »
+1

http://play.prismata.net/?r=ameSj-6LEjh

My first win against a real person!  I actually used something much like what amalloy describes above, hitting the Tesla Coils really hard, getting my fourth one on T8 and just overrunning.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2014, 10:06:21 pm »
0

The demo seems to like Ossified Drones. I don't know how to use them. But I like them anyway.

Some cards lead to excessively defensive setups. I just played a game with the Thermiticitiwhatever (the thing that makes Pixies/grenades) and the souped-up green energy field (the one that last one turn and has four defense). Man that game took forever.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2014, 10:34:30 pm »
0

This is a cool game. Thanks for the point-out to it.

I love the symmetry of the opening. First turn, P1 is on the play, P2 has one more drone. If P1 buys 2 drones--now P2 is on the play and P1 has one more drone. Whoever chooses a tech color first has the initiative, but also telegraphs their options.

I can beat the Hard bot without much sweat; the Master bot is still beyond me.

However, a game with no luck is hard for me to play. It's difficult not to get emotionally attached to my play--to beat myself up if I lose, to go on tilt. So I don't know if I'll keep trying to play. We'll see whether or not I dream about it tonight.  :)
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2014, 11:29:02 pm »
0

Since a bunch of folks here seem interested, I thought I'd stream some practice games with Temron on Skype. We're live now at www.twitch.tv/amalloy - feel free to stop in and ask questions, or just hang out and listen.

Edit: Stream over.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 03:33:18 am by amalloy »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2014, 12:56:27 am »
+1

Watching the stream is insightful and also slightly sad. It's so much mathing and chessing.  It reminds me of a group of people trying to play Power Grid optimally.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2014, 01:02:20 am »
0

I haven't looked further into the game yet, but now I am intimidated.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2014, 09:40:42 am »
0

I got Google's new Flash working in Chromium, so have been able to give this a go.  Does an alpha key just buy you PvP?
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2014, 09:45:51 am »
+1

Watching the stream is insightful and also slightly sad. It's so much mathing and chessing.  It reminds me of a group of people trying to play Power Grid optimally.
I only watched the first hour or something, but it didn't seem all that mathy, and certainly not like chess (not 100% sure I know what 'chessy' means - having spent time analyzing with Grandmasters, I don't think the perception of the general public matches reality). Also, I don't mind calculation - I actually mind luck more.

Kirian

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2014, 10:01:05 am »
0

Watching the stream is insightful and also slightly sad. It's so much mathing and chessing.  It reminds me of a group of people trying to play Power Grid optimally.

But... that's the beauty of it!

Also,  saying all the mathing and chessing is sad after all the times you've walloped me at TTA... ;)
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Kirian

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2014, 10:02:01 am »
0

A wild WanderingWinder appears!
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2014, 02:01:51 am »
0

Watching the stream is insightful and also slightly sad. It's so much mathing and chessing.  It reminds me of a group of people trying to play Power Grid optimally.

But... that's the beauty of it!

Also,  saying all the mathing and chessing is sad after all the times you've walloped me at TTA... ;)

Ambassador 201 was my favorite dominion article I ever read. I think you'd like Prismata
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2014, 08:32:39 am »
+4

I seem to be able to hold my own against Master Bot, so I've now backed my first ever Kickstarter project.  I should be qmech over there once the key comes through.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2014, 01:38:12 am »
+1

http://play.prismata.net/?r=283ho-otIUB

A very close game.  Omega Splitter (3/6) vs Iso Kronus (2/0 but attacks every second round).  I let him breach on Turn 10 (though he can't accept the breach because he wouldn't have enough defense the following round), but the next round he has 2 attack max.

He resigns on T12, probably because he was going to have to start sacrificing drones and green to build Forcefields, which would have killed his econ.

----

Also, I think the reason I enjoy the game is the mathiness of it.  Interestingly, of the "MCDS" name, I think it resembles Dominion the least.  I've previously described Dominion as Starcraft without units--not on this forum--due to the economic development followed by engine development and then VP purchasing.  Prismata carries only the random setup aspect of Dominion.  So basically, it's:

The fighting and economy of Starcraft without the micro or the twitchiness (and I may not be that old, but I'm old enough that the twitchiness isn't there any more)
The luck of Chess (or SC, where there is no luck assuming percect play) without the openings and memorization (which as pointed out above is also found in Chess 960)
The unit generation of Magic (or HS) without the decks or the annoying separate attacks-separate blocks-instant buffs/kills-damage/trample... thing (or the pay-to-win problem)
The randomness of setup of Dominion, without the decks or luck
The open information of Zendo (one of my favorite games, which has perfectly complete information), Puerto Rico, Power Grid, crayon rail games, St. Petersburg, etc.

The only real problem with it is that I can't play it in person.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 01:50:21 am by Kirian »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2014, 04:58:08 am »
+2

I'm glad the people who have tried it are enjoying it. It has completely taken all of my dominion time. If anyone wants to play friendlies feel free to add me. I would also be happy to skype and walk newbies through the basics.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2014, 08:48:50 am »
0

I am MicQsenoch on there. So far, I am not really enjoying it that much. I miss the emotional roller coaster of shuffles. But I think it's mostly that I don't know what the heck I'm doing. So I will keep trying I guess.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2014, 11:40:42 am »
0

I've played it a lot over the weekend. It is quite addictive once you start seeing the quirky cards.

I had a funny game against the bot where I let him breach me three times in a row and still won. It involved Trinity Drones (for 2 coins and one conduit, a 5hp non-blocking drone that produces three coins per turn) and the Voidbringer (you can pay 8 conduit for 8 attack and 8 coins; takes 6 turns to build). Basically, because all my units had high health, I was quite impervious to breaches. Once the Voidbringer went online, my opponent had to start devoting most of his economy to defending himself, while I was earning far more money than him.

It probably wouldn't have worked against a human opponent though. The master bot prioritized my gauss cannons during the breaches, he should have gone for the blastforges and then the conduit instead, I think (with Voidbringer, every conduit is effectively a +1 attack, +1 coin unit, and they only have three health).


I am winning most of my games against the master bot now, it doesn't seem to understand some cards. I've easily won every game with scorchilla, for example. I don't really have that much free time, so I will have to pass on the alpha for now...
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2014, 12:23:25 pm »
0

Does anyone know if they plan to go mobile? No way I'm buying a computer game when the only time I really sit at a computer any more is at work.

In one of the Kickstarter or Reddit threads there was mention that they do intend to go mobile--that in fact the browser-based Flash app is very temporary, a port from their internal alpha executable, which will get ported to Android/iOS.  The click-and-swipe thing (to use all of a particular type of unit) was created with mobile in mind.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2014, 03:03:35 pm »
0

I've played it a lot over the weekend. It is quite addictive once you start seeing the quirky cards.

I had a funny game against the bot where I let him breach me three times in a row and still won. It involved Trinity Drones (for 2 coins and one conduit, a 5hp non-blocking drone that produces three coins per turn) and the Voidbringer (you can pay 8 conduit for 8 attack and 8 coins; takes 6 turns to build). Basically, because all my units had high health, I was quite impervious to breaches. Once the Voidbringer went online, my opponent had to start devoting most of his economy to defending himself, while I was earning far more money than him.

It probably wouldn't have worked against a human opponent though. The master bot prioritized my gauss cannons during the breaches, he should have gone for the blastforges and then the conduit instead, I think (with Voidbringer, every conduit is effectively a +1 attack, +1 coin unit, and they only have three health).


I am winning most of my games against the master bot now, it doesn't seem to understand some cards. I've easily won every game with scorchilla, for example. I don't really have that much free time, so I will have to pass on the alpha for now...

The resource you pay to build things is generally called "green": the conduit makes the resource, it isn't the resource itself. Mostly this doesn't matter, but I'm bringing it up because it can cause some confusion, especially if you start calling blue "blastforge": there are some cards that consume an actual blastforge unit, rather than just a blue resource. (The colors have actual names somewhere, but everyone just calls them red/blue/green).
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2014, 03:21:33 pm »
0

I've played it a lot over the weekend. It is quite addictive once you start seeing the quirky cards.

I had a funny game against the bot where I let him breach me three times in a row and still won. It involved Trinity Drones (for 2 coins and one conduit, a 5hp non-blocking drone that produces three coins per turn) and the Voidbringer (you can pay 8 conduit for 8 attack and 8 coins; takes 6 turns to build). Basically, because all my units had high health, I was quite impervious to breaches. Once the Voidbringer went online, my opponent had to start devoting most of his economy to defending himself, while I was earning far more money than him.

It probably wouldn't have worked against a human opponent though. The master bot prioritized my gauss cannons during the breaches, he should have gone for the blastforges and then the conduit instead, I think (with Voidbringer, every conduit is effectively a +1 attack, +1 coin unit, and they only have three health).


I am winning most of my games against the master bot now, it doesn't seem to understand some cards. I've easily won every game with scorchilla, for example. I don't really have that much free time, so I will have to pass on the alpha for now...

The resource you pay to build things is generally called "green": the conduit makes the resource, it isn't the resource itself. Mostly this doesn't matter, but I'm bringing it up because it can cause some confusion, especially if you start calling blue "blastforge": there are some cards that consume an actual blastforge unit, rather than just a blue resource. (The colors have actual names somewhere, but everyone just calls them red/blue/green).

I think one of the tutorials calls the green stuff conduit? "You can accumulate conduit" or whatever. Could be misremembering it.

Red/Blue/Green is kinda lame, when there's clear thematic union between the related units.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2014, 07:30:53 pm »
+2

This game is deep, but intuition will get you a long way.

Is there a better way of using a stack of freezing units than clicking each of them individually?
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2014, 07:41:35 pm »
+3

This game is deep, but intuition will get you a long way.

Is there a better way of using a stack of freezing units than clicking each of them individually?

For most things you can do multiple times, holding shift does it as many times as possible. Clicking stacks, buying units...probably some other stuff I can't think of.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2014, 07:45:25 pm »
0

Thank you, I'll give that a go next time I play.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2014, 09:56:45 am »
0

Quote from: Elyot
3) Do you know of any communities that should hear about Prismata? Tell us, and email me (elyot@lunarchstudios.com) if you'd like to do a key giveaway. It only takes one person to make a MASSIVE difference, like Celerity's teamliquid thread that led to over 200 comments.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lunarchstudios/prismata-a-new-hybrid-game-of-pure-strategy/posts/1077290

Somebody could probably get a bunch of free keys for f.DS users if they emailed the devs.  We're in the name, right?
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2014, 11:06:08 am »
0

I would be interested in kickstarting if I know mobile is on the way real soon now. If it is say, more than 3 months away, I'll probably just wait until I would actually be able to play it.
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phienn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2014, 11:14:25 am »
+5

Quote from: Elyot
3) Do you know of any communities that should hear about Prismata? Tell us, and email me (elyot@lunarchstudios.com) if you'd like to do a key giveaway. It only takes one person to make a MASSIVE difference, like Celerity's teamliquid thread that led to over 200 comments.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lunarchstudios/prismata-a-new-hybrid-game-of-pure-strategy/posts/1077290

Somebody could probably get a bunch of free keys for f.DS users if they emailed the devs.  We're in the name, right?

Hello everyone! ;D My name is Rachel, and I work with Elyot and the Lunarch Studios team.

I'd be more than happy to give you guys some keys. After all, you are in the name. Not sure what the best way to go about this is. Maybe if you want a key you should PM me on here and I'll PM back with it? Or you can feel free to message me on reddit (u/eden000). If you already play Prismata, add me in the game! My username is phienn. I'm looking forward to playing with y'all soon!
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2014, 12:25:23 pm »
+4

You could make a new topic to raise awareness about the key giveaway and answer questions about the game :)
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2014, 12:51:55 pm »
+2

Yeah? Okay, I'll definitely do that. I wasn't sure if that would be considered spam, but if it's okay by you then I'll definitely do so.

EDIT: The new topic is here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12194.0
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 01:21:20 pm by phienn »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2014, 06:19:05 pm »
0

I went ahead and got myself a key. IGN is jonts.

I have no idea what I'm doing yet.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2014, 06:32:24 pm »
+1

Ichi and I just had a couple of games. Fun stuff.

Is there any... convenient... way to chat in friendly games, though?
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2014, 06:49:57 pm »
+1

Yeah. The white text against the cards and background makes it difficult to see. I also noticed that I would hit enter and it would sometimes randomly give me a warning that all-chat was disabled. So then I had to re-click you in my friends list to chat with you again.

Edit: Also, the strategic action/reaction based on what your opponent is doing is amazing. I lost both games, but still had a ton of fun!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 06:57:30 pm by Ichimaru Gin »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2014, 07:06:18 pm »
+5

You know what the game replay needs? Text-logs.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2014, 07:07:46 pm »
+1

Yeah. The white text against the cards and background makes it difficult to see. I also noticed that I would hit enter and it would sometimes randomly give me a warning that all-chat was disabled. So then I had to re-click you in my friends list to chat with you again.

Edit: Also, the strategic action/reaction based on what your opponent is doing is amazing. I lost both games, but still had a ton of fun!

To be fair, I ambushed you right after you finished the tutorial, and I had already played dozens of games against the bot ;)

I've only played 4 ranked games yet, but I agree with the action/reaction part Ichi mentioned. Like, I was planning to go scorchillas in one game, and then my opponent played a conduit the turn right before I was going to. So I was thinking shiiiiiiiiiiiiit, and had to buy a blastforge instead to survive the inevitable onslaught. Still lost that game anyway cos my opponent was a pro, but I could have lost quite a bit faster :P
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2014, 09:23:14 pm »
0

Well I just got me an alpha key, so I figure I'll toss my usename in:  mpsprs

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2014, 10:27:37 pm »
+2

just solved the puzzle from the tutorial.

it is interesting. maybe I'll get more invested in it.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2014, 12:35:40 am »
+2

So I just got my alpha key today, and tried out a few games against the bots. I like what I've seen so far.

It's strange because it's a game of perfect information, but with the randomly chosen add-on units and the turn timer it doesn't play out that way, and it ends up feeling like Starcraft where you see what you're opponent is doing and you go for a counterbuild.

The tricky thing is figuring out how best to take advantage of the add-on units. Say, You see that you're opponent is being a bit passive at the start, so you try to breach early, only to see your opponent throw down some crazy defender that will take you 4 turns just to destroy. For example, that 6 health frontline defender. Against such strong defenders, you need to find a fast way to build attack power in order to breach.

It's also like Starcraft in that the play that costs you the game might have been made very early on. You only have an intuitive sense of this. Even so, using a fast timer like 5 seconds per turn gives the game a blitz chess sort of feel where players are pressured to play fast that might see your opponent make a big mistake later on the cancel out a mistake you made earlier.
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phienn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2014, 12:15:26 pm »
+3

So I just got my alpha key today, and tried out a few games against the bots. I like what I've seen so far.

It's strange because it's a game of perfect information, but with the randomly chosen add-on units and the turn timer it doesn't play out that way, and it ends up feeling like Starcraft where you see what you're opponent is doing and you go for a counterbuild.

The tricky thing is figuring out how best to take advantage of the add-on units. Say, You see that you're opponent is being a bit passive at the start, so you try to breach early, only to see your opponent throw down some crazy defender that will take you 4 turns just to destroy. For example, that 6 health frontline defender. Against such strong defenders, you need to find a fast way to build attack power in order to breach.

It's also like Starcraft in that the play that costs you the game might have been made very early on. You only have an intuitive sense of this. Even so, using a fast timer like 5 seconds per turn gives the game a blitz chess sort of feel where players are pressured to play fast that might see your opponent make a big mistake later on the cancel out a mistake you made earlier.

Yes – I love blitz games. They also narrow the gap between players of very different ELO a little.

To your point about your opponent throwing down the crazy defender, I find that in a lot of games just the fact that a certain unit is in the set can completely change the outcome of the game. For example I just played a game where Apollo was in the set (expensive blue unit, can snipe any other unit with >=3 health). Neither of us got Apollos at all during the game, but the fact that it was there meant that both of us went a very heavy econ green-focused build, because those units have higher health. This kind of dynamic is what makes the game so fresh, since you'll never see the same set of units twice.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2014, 12:36:15 pm »
0

Oh don't me wrong, I thought it was awesome that such defenders existed that can enable players to get an early economy boost. It makes those 1-time use attackers valuable. There are other games where the attackers are nuts and you have to find the best way to sustain them.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2014, 01:36:00 pm »
0

This kind of dynamic is what makes the game so fresh, since you'll never see the same set of units twice.

As people who frequent a Dominion forum, you don't have to tell us that. ;)

Here's a serious question though (for everybody who's playing) -- I've never been big on RTS games.  Never got into Starcraft.  Right now, most comparisons suggest that Prismata is more like Starcraft than Dominion in terms of gameplay feel.  How big a deterrent should this be for me?  I know I should just try out the demo, but I haven't had/made time yet...
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2014, 01:38:17 pm »
0

This kind of dynamic is what makes the game so fresh, since you'll never see the same set of units twice.

As people who frequent a Dominion forum, you don't have to tell us that. ;)

Here's a serious question though (for everybody who's playing) -- I've never been big on RTS games.  Never got into Starcraft.  Right now, most comparisons suggest that Prismata is more like Starcraft than Dominion in terms of gameplay feel.  How big a deterrent should this be for me?  I know I should just try out the demo, but I haven't had/made time yet...

I don't get all of the talk about starcraft. I'd say prismata is 50% magic, 48% dominion, and 2% starcraft. it's a round based card game.

theory

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2014, 01:49:12 pm »
+3

I think the Starcraft analogy comes in the sense that you have the same dynamic between rush/boom/tech. 
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2014, 02:06:02 pm »
0

it's so drastically different though, because you see everything your opponent does. in sc2, playing a rush basically comes down to your opponent making mistakes and an element of luck. the dynamic was supposed to be there, but I don't think it actually is.

though they never explicitly said that they mean sc2 when they say "starcraft". I'm sure it was not as bad in broodwar.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2014, 02:39:09 pm »
+3

I thought the similarity to Starcraft was in the building and use of units to create an army or sorts, but without the micromanagement. In Prismata, buying a drone feels more like buying a Starcraft worker than buying a Dominion Silver.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2014, 04:23:12 pm »
0

I want to play Prismata but I want to play Hearthstone how do I do both simultaneously? :(
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2014, 04:25:28 pm »
0

I can't be doing with RTSes—there are too many options and I don't know what's good.  I don't get the same feeling with Prismata.  The part of Dominion that's here is that you need to read a board.  There's then a lot more of reacting to what your opponent does that there is in Dominion.

Here's an example of what you might see reading when reading the board.  There's a unit called Scorchzilla which is an incredibly aggressive rusher that costs 7GR.  As second player you have the option of playing

DD (9 drones, 1 gold)
DDC(11 drones, 0 gold)
DA(12 drones, 2 gold)
2x Scorchzilla

That will give you an attack of 6 on your fifth turn, which is a huge amount to deal with.  So the question becomes whether there's anything else you (or your opponent) can do, or whether you end up playing the mirror and taking it from there.

That's a very special case, the analogue of something like a Cultist rush.  Normally, as in Dominion, you'll need to consider more complicated interactions between numerous units/cards.

Here's another particular opening for P1 that worries me quite a bit as P2.

DD (8 drones, 0 gold)
D Chrono Filter (9 Drones, 1 gold)
Hannibull

Hannibull is a front line unit with 6HP that attacks for 2.  Since it's front line, the first player to get an attack for 6 can stop their opponent from doing the same by killing a Hannibull every turn.

These examples happen to show something else too: the second player gets an extra drone as compensation, but whether that's much help strongly depends on what price points you want to hit early on.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2014, 04:32:18 pm »
0

I want to play Prismata but I want to play Hearthstone how do I do both simultaneously? :(
I, I just don't know. For now, I'm just playing against bots on Prismata, so it's a way to have quick fun.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2014, 05:19:23 pm »
+2

I want to play Prismata but I want to play Hearthstone how do I do both simultaneously? :(

Create a clone of yourself and then merge back with it later so you have both sets if memories. This is also a good way to practice but I often find that my play style too closely matches my own to be as useful as playing multiple games against multiple opponents.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2014, 05:30:56 pm »
+3

well, forget about hearthstone and play prismata, obviously.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2014, 09:04:51 pm »
0

What's the standard kingdom size for vs.?  Base plus 5, plus 8, or grandmaster? I wanna practice vs. bots using the most relevant setting.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2014, 09:46:50 pm »
0

What's the standard kingdom size for vs.?  Base plus 5, plus 8, or grandmaster? I wanna practice vs. bots using the most relevant setting.

I was curious what grandmaster was and googled it. It's just one specific set, apparently they want to see what happens if they pick one set and let people play that a long. how long will they need to figure it out completely? at least I think that's the reason, it makes a lot of sense.

so, it can only be either +5 or +8. I'm strongly guessing it's +8. I only play that, because it's just more fun.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2014, 09:48:08 pm »
0

What's the standard kingdom size for vs.?  Base plus 5, plus 8, or grandmaster? I wanna practice vs. bots using the most relevant setting.
Seems like 8 is preferred once you are comfortable with all the units. I'm still playing 5-vs-bot at the moment because I don't know the units well yet.
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Kirian

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2014, 03:08:15 am »
+2

This kind of dynamic is what makes the game so fresh, since you'll never see the same set of units twice.

As people who frequent a Dominion forum, you don't have to tell us that. ;)

Here's a serious question though (for everybody who's playing) -- I've never been big on RTS games.  Never got into Starcraft.  Right now, most comparisons suggest that Prismata is more like Starcraft than Dominion in terms of gameplay feel.  How big a deterrent should this be for me?  I know I should just try out the demo, but I haven't had/made time yet...

I don't get all of the talk about starcraft. I'd say prismata is 50% magic, 48% dominion, and 2% starcraft. it's a round based card game.

So I think the problem with any comparison is that we're talking about comparisons across five different games, and the important mechanics are spread across multiple axes.  It's not so much "Starcraft without X" or "Magic with Y," but a combination of a set of features.

Thankfully for everyone in the thread, I enjoy overanalyzing things!  Let's consider the five games we're examining--Magic, Chess, Dominion, Starcraft, and Prismata--along a number of game mechanic/design axes.  For the sake of "simplicity" I'm just going to look at the endpoints of the axes.  Then we can consider similarities more in the mode of genetic similarity between species.

Does the Game Have:YesNo
Strategy/TacticsAll
LuckDMCPS
Economic BuildupDPSMC
Time/TwitchSCDMP
Unit-Based CombatCMPSD
Multiple SetupsDMPCS*
Discrete AttacksCDMPS
Tricky MathDMPCS
SymmetryCDPMS
Perfect InformationCPDMS

I'm sure we can all argue for the inclusion of other axes, and that the axes shouldn't be equally weighted, but again for simplicity, let's consider them equally important.  This means that:

GamesSimilarity
D - C40%
D - M70%
D - S30%
D - P60%
P - C60%
P - M50%
P - S50%
C - M50%
C - S50%
M - S40%

So based on these, Prismata is more like Chess or Dominion than it is like Magic or Starcraft, though only by a little bit.  Meanwhile, Dominion is a lot more like Prismata or Magic than it is like Chess or Starcraft.

(Yeah, yeah, I know, 5 slices of bacon are all similar to each other, doesn't mean any given one is 30/50/70% like the other, plus they're all delicious, but they all came from the same pork belly, or some other analogy?  I dunno, it's far too late.)
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2014, 06:22:41 am »
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starcraft... has luck in it. a lot. trust me.

silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2014, 06:40:01 am »
0

I was also coming more talking about "what is the game made of" and less "how does it play out."

The combat mechanics and the way monsters work is extremely similar to magic. You got hp and attack on each, you got the defender deciding how he wants to block. you even got the vigilante and tapping (?) mechanics. And you have different colors of monsters that are differently themed.

The variety theme is very similar to dominion, as explained in the OP.

The economy is kind of like starcraft, though not really because there you just buy workers non stop with 2 of 3 races, making it less of a decision and more of a question of mechanics.

that's why I said it it's basically half dominion half magic and a little bit of SC, in terms of what it's made of.

In terms of how it plays out, I'd argue that it's Chess > Dominion/Magic >> SC. Although that's not really reflected in your analysis.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2014, 10:24:16 am »
0

Going beyond the standard numbers of drones is analogous to taking a fast expo in starcraft.  Drones:Command posts, not Drones:Drones
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Kirian

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2014, 12:38:23 pm »
0

starcraft... has luck in it. a lot. trust me.

With absolutely perfect play, there is no luck in SC.  Every unit can theoretically be microed to inflict maximum damage while taking minimal damage.  Obviously this would only be achievable by an AI that can do 100k APM or more, but it would completely remove all luck.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2014, 12:59:49 pm »
0

starcraft... has luck in it. a lot. trust me.

With absolutely perfect play, there is no luck in SC.  Every unit can theoretically be microed to inflict maximum damage while taking minimal damage.  Obviously this would only be achievable by an AI that can do 100k APM or more, but it would completely remove all luck.

no. if you have, for example, a big map in, say, a terran mirror, there are basically only three viable openings. CC first, A safe expand, and a double proxy rax.

Double proxy rax will win vs CC first. You can argue about perfect micro, but if you're gonna do that then both sides have to have perfect micro, and then it doesn't really change anything. A safe expansion will more or less auto win vs proxy raxes, although you can't immediately attack or anything, you're just miles ahead. And CC will have a significant although not game ending edge over a safe expand. this is slightly simplified, but not much. you can't talk yourself out of the fact that you have a rock paper scissors scenario, and you really get similar things all the time in sc2.

And aside from that, I also don't think you can just assume both people have perfect micro, because they don't. say you play a zerg mirror, your opponent has a crawler in his expansion. You can now try to sneak in 4 banelings in his eco line. If he doesn't look, you more or less won the game. If he does look, you wasted like 300 resources for almost nothing. There is of course a counter argument here: it's not really luck, and you can do similar things in chess, do a dangerous thing and hope your opponent doesn't notice; that's not luck, but it's his skill. But it's different, really, because for most players, looking or not looking at your eco line at a certain moment is really just luck. They maybe check there every 5 seconds, and that either happens to be the right moment or it doesn't.

And an even simpler example are the random spawning positions. Zerg larva spawns from the bottom of the hatchery; if the mineral patches are below the hatch, the distance for newly spawned drones is shorter. Also, if there are multiple spawning options for your opponent, it's also luck where you scout first.

so, tl;dr sc2 has a lot of luck. Broodwar has less, because it's a 10000 times better game, but it doesn't have zero. And broodwar actually does have some other luck elements based on the bugs that were allowed to be and were more or less integrated as strategies in the game. The reaver shots, for example, are bugged, and sometimes take way too long to do damage or just don't do damage if the targeted unit is running away or on a higher platform. And it has broken pathfinding that leads to units going in directions that might not be random in the most theoretical sense, but are totally random for the players.

so, starcraft has luck. that's completely out of question.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2014, 01:13:31 pm »
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It's a matter of semantics that most people don't refer to double blind rock paper scissors interactions as luck.  It is a similar source in variance of outcome it's just not popular to use the word luck to refer to it no matter how similar the impact is to luck.
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2014, 01:28:03 pm »
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Not really relevant, but Broodwar did have a random hit chance thing going on when attacking units on higher ground. SC2 removed that mechanic, and replaced it with ground units having no vision on higher ground.

But yeah the random spawn points for each player is a big source of luck in sc2. It affects how early you scout your opponent. Blizzard deliberately chose to always have 4 player maps used in 2 player ladder to nerf worker proxy strategies.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2014, 03:13:32 pm »
+1

I like the game, but it's super-mathy, which I think is a downside.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #80 on: December 13, 2014, 04:06:06 pm »
0

I like the game, but it's super-mathy, which I think is a downside.

What do you mean by super mathy?  All games are pure mathematics so that's not much of a statement at all.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #81 on: December 13, 2014, 04:11:29 pm »
+1

I like the game, but it's super-mathy, which I think is a downside.

What do you mean by super mathy?  All games are pure mathematics so that's not much of a statement at all.

uhh that's not true. mafia e.g. is not maths. unless you say psychology ⊂ maths

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #82 on: December 13, 2014, 04:51:23 pm »
+2

What's the standard kingdom size for vs.?  Base plus 5, plus 8, or grandmaster? I wanna practice vs. bots using the most relevant setting.

I was curious what grandmaster was and googled it. It's just one specific set, apparently they want to see what happens if they pick one set and let people play that a long. how long will they need to figure it out completely? at least I think that's the reason, it makes a lot of sense.

so, it can only be either +5 or +8. I'm strongly guessing it's +8. I only play that, because it's just more fun.

The top players all seem to play both +5 and +8 competitively. My understanding of the way they play out is that +5 is actually more likely to be won by the most-skilled player, because there is usually a dominant strategy that's not hard to see, and then the stronger player's superior execution matters a lot. In +8, there are more viable strategies, which may have some rock/paper/scissors interactions or whatever, increasing the variance.

I heard a rumor that the grandmaster set was an experiment that failed, in that nobody is playing it at all, and will be removed in a future version.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #83 on: December 13, 2014, 05:12:02 pm »
0

Doesn't fog of war add luck?
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blueblimp

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #84 on: December 13, 2014, 05:54:30 pm »
+1

It's easier to just say that Starcraft mostly doesn't have RNG, that is, random number generation by the computer, with the exceptions of starting positions and Brood War's high ground mechanic. The primary sources of luck come from hidden information, human limitations, and chaos.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 07:24:08 pm by blueblimp »
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2014, 07:19:06 pm »
+1

The loading animation is, by the way, pretty fascinating. It's impossible for me to see it for what it really is all the time, no matter how hard I try to.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2014, 09:20:43 pm »
0

The loading animation is, by the way, pretty fascinating. It's impossible for me to see it for what it really is all the time, no matter how hard I try to.

It actually made the front page of /r/gifs last week, and Elyot gave away the source code for anyone who wants to play with it: http://np.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/2on8si/connecting_to_server_so_mesmerizing/cmow0sz
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2014, 10:10:26 pm »
0

The loading animation is, by the way, pretty fascinating. It's impossible for me to see it for what it really is all the time, no matter how hard I try to.
My experience with optical illusions makes me believe that the animation can be done with particles moving up and down in a very coordinated way.

I like the in-game music a lot actually.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2014, 10:18:13 pm »
0

I have been playing all day, backed it, got the key, and am officially terrible.  Haha.

I guess I was stuck in the 10s for a long time playing Dominion until I got good.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2014, 10:20:15 pm »
0

Turns out I'm pretty terrible too. Played some humans for the first time today, hasn't been going great. Where do people go to learn strategy?
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #90 on: December 13, 2014, 10:21:44 pm »
0

also, username is the-number-e
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Awaclus

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #91 on: December 13, 2014, 10:24:54 pm »
+2

Turns out I'm pretty terrible too. Played some humans for the first time today, hasn't been going great. Where do people go to learn strategy?
Playing more.
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #92 on: December 13, 2014, 10:30:19 pm »
+1

Where do people go to learn strategy?
prismatastrategy.com
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #93 on: December 13, 2014, 10:31:49 pm »
+2

Where do people go to learn strategy?
prismatastrategy.com
Turns out I'm pretty terrible too. Played some humans for the first time today, hasn't been going great. Where do people go to learn strategy?
Playing more.
Do you all realize that it upon us to discover strategies for ourselves? It's like the start of Dominion all over again.

Then again, the leaderboard seems to be full of names I don't recognize. What if there's a secret f.PS where they scoff at us?
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #94 on: December 13, 2014, 10:33:14 pm »
0

Where do people go to learn strategy?
prismatastrategy.com
I totally checked to see if it was a real thing.
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jonts26

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #95 on: December 13, 2014, 10:37:58 pm »
0

Every game feels like rock, paper, scissors and I'm throwing first.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #96 on: December 13, 2014, 11:02:27 pm »
0

Turns out I'm pretty terrible too. Played some humans for the first time today, hasn't been going great. Where do people go to learn strategy?

I'm a proud member of the "has yet to beat a human" club.  But I beat the adept bot pretty consistently, and the master bot sometimes, so that's something.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #97 on: December 13, 2014, 11:37:02 pm »
0

Every game feels like rock, paper, scissors and I'm throwing first.
I feel like the hybrid units that require more than one type of resource allow the players at least some opportunity to conceal their intentions.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 11:38:18 pm by markusin »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #98 on: December 13, 2014, 11:47:27 pm »
0

I'm hearing a lot of new players struggling in here. I'm no expert, but I've been playing for several weeks and winning more than I lose, with a rating in the low 1400s; I'd be happy to help out. Would anyone like a coaching session on Skype, streamed on twitch for anyone else who wants to ask questions or just listen in? If so, PM me your Skype name and we can set up a call. I'm available for the next several hours tonight, at least.
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2014, 01:33:02 am »
+1

I've played maybe 30-40 bot games so far--and beaten the 3s Masterbot a few times. There is definitely a ton to this game though. The devs are very high level players, but from the way they talk, there is still much about their gameplay they think they can improve on. I like games like this though, because there is something to work towards that is not easily achievable.

From the games I've played so far, I feel like getting some early aggro and forcing the opponent into a defensive position normally wins me the game. Most of these are somewhat low-level bot matches, so not sure if this translates as much into fighting a human opponent. It's more expensive to play defensively, and you will eventually run out of seeds and be overrun. I read that they specifically made things this way in order to avoid turtling as a viable strategy, because it's not that interesting. I feel like shifting the game state such that you are the aggressor and your opponent has to spend more of their resources to defend their economy instead of gaining attack power normally leads to a win. Of course, some units change this, but generally, the majority of my games have played out this way.

I've also played games where me (or the bot) plays more defensively while building up a superior economy before focusing on offense. I feel like this is a pretty good strategy if there's no way for your opponent to build up attack power quickly (Tia Thurnax, etc).

I don't know if this stuff is like super obvious to everyone else, but it took me a little to figure this out. I'm probably going to play a lot more matches against the AI before I start ranked play. This is one of those games where it's still very fun to play against bots, so that's a definite benefit. Prismata is so interesting with the similarities it shares with the games they credit (Chess, Dominion, Starcraft). I've never played Magic, but am familiar with the rules. It's very fun how Prismata forces you to think in different ways and consider strategies that are parallel to those in other games.

The Prismata subreddit is fairly active, but I'd rather discuss strategy here with people I know and trust ;). Its still a good resource for strategy though. Especially at this point, when there isn't a ginormous playerbase yet.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 01:34:06 am by Ichimaru Gin »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2014, 05:04:43 am »
+2

I'm probably going to play a lot more matches against the AI before I start ranked play. This is one of those games where it's still very fun to play against bots, so that's a definite benefit.

I also played games against the bots until I was winning most of the time—one nice thing about the bots is that you haven't got the time pressure.  But the experience of playing against other humans is different, and I lost a lot of games very quickly when I jumped on the ladder.  I'm now bobbing around 1300 on the leaderboard.

Let's have some random strategy thoughts:

The official videos are pretty useful.

A lot of my games go like this: build two Drones a turn until your opponent builds a technology building, then build a Blastforge to drop a Wall next turn if they go on the attack.

The equivalent of Big Money (a baseline that uses only units from the base set) is to buy all the Tarsiers.  I find it helpful to think in terms of whether anything forces me to deviate from this strategy.

The special Drones all have different uses.  Vivid Drone is cheap but you can probably only buy one a turn.  Trinity Drone greatly increases you resilience to breaching and is hardly more expensive than the normal Drones (G instead of 1 gold and an energy).  Doomed Drone is really a cheap or free defender that you have to buy a couple of turns in advance of when you need it.  Wild Drone is a much better opener than it looks—it isn't going to die much earlier than your first Wall would, and it gives you an economy boost. You can also buy it as cheap (but not prompt) defence later—if you're opponent kills it every turn then it's 3HPfor 3 gold, and if they don't then you have an economy boost.  Ossified Drone I've never bought, and it doesn't excite me because you rarely have spare Red and if Drones are being attacked you're in a bad shape anyway.  I'm sure it's useful occasionally though.

3 Engineers are arguably cheaper than a Wall.

Centrifuge, the resource pinata, is really good if you're not in danger of being rushed.

Gauss Cannon is almost too expensive to buy.

One Steelsplitter is nice to have over a Wall if you don't need to defend this turn as it gives you the option of attacking in the future whilst still being available to block (after your cheaper Walls) if necessary.

One big turn is much better than several smaller turns because breaching is so good.  So the bombs (Gauss Charge/Pixie) and synchronised periodic attackers are very useful.  The Red one-time freezers are great too because they disable Walls incredibly cheaply.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 05:17:04 am by qmech »
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #101 on: December 14, 2014, 05:59:15 am »
+3

The equivalent of Big Money (a baseline that uses only units from the base set) is to buy all the Tarsiers.  I find it helpful to think in terms of whether anything forces me to deviate from this strategy.

Seems like a good thing to think about, but even in just base set, you can't "just" build all the Tarsiers: you need Walls or something to defend them.

Quote
Ossified Drone I've never bought, and it doesn't excite me because you rarely have spare Red and if Drones are being attacked you're in a bad shape anyway.  I'm sure it's useful occasionally though.

Ossified is my favorite Drone. Vivid is "exciting" in that it enables other strategies well by accelerating your economy, but it's frankly boring: you just mindlessly open Vivids and then have more money than if you didn't. Ossified, on the other hand, keeps things interesting throughout a lot of the game by letting you juggle your leftover red, and defend efficiently with a giant pile of free red "Forcefields". http://www.reddit.com/r/Prismata/comments/2p1yyn/ossified_drone/ is a semi-recent reddit post asking what the heck Ossified is any good for, with a lot of good answers and a link to a recent Ossified game of my own.

Quote
Centrifuge, the resource pinata, is really good if you're not in danger of being rushed.

I'm not so sure about this. Building a Centrifuge takes a long time, and the amount of Drones+tech you have to cut in order to get it out means you often get the unit you were aiming for *later* than if you just teched and droned normally. It's most often useful if there's one or two big units that you really want, but don't want to commit to the tech for all game. For example, it's nice to Centrifuge into Defense Grid with just one Blastforge, rather than having to get three Blastforges and waste a bunch of blue for the rest of the game. But if there's something you want to use a lot of consistently, eg Drake spam, it's better to skip the Centrifuge even if you're not being rushed.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #102 on: December 14, 2014, 06:42:07 am »
0


Seems like a good thing to think about, but even in just base set, you can't "just" build all the Tarsiers: you need Walls or something to defend them.
Yes.

Quote
Ossified is my favorite Drone. Vivid is "exciting" in that it enables other strategies well by accelerating your economy, but it's frankly boring: you just mindlessly open Vivids and then have more money than if you didn't. Ossified, on the other hand, keeps things interesting throughout a lot of the game by letting you juggle your leftover red, and defend efficiently with a giant pile of free red "Forcefields". http://www.reddit.com/r/Prismata/comments/2p1yyn/ossified_drone/ is a semi-recent reddit post asking what the heck Ossified is any good for, with a lot of good answers and a link to a recent Ossified game of my own.
I'm quite sure that I'm underestimating it.  For example, I see now that you don't need to click it for the gold.  It's still not quite "free", as the upfront cost isn't negligible, but I will try to play it when I can.  Thanks for the link.

Quote
I'm not so sure about this. Building a Centrifuge takes a long time, and the amount of Drones+tech you have to cut in order to get it out means you often get the unit you were aiming for *later* than if you just teched and droned normally. It's most often useful if there's one or two big units that you really want, but don't want to commit to the tech for all game. For example, it's nice to Centrifuge into Defense Grid with just one Blastforge, rather than having to get three Blastforges and waste a bunch of blue for the rest of the game. But if there's something you want to use a lot of consistently, eg Drake spam, it's better to skip the Centrifuge even if you're not being rushed.
Perhaps I mean that if there's nothing outstanding that you want to get then it's nice to get a huge selection of whatever in a few turns time rather than building up whatever slowly, as the first few whatevers are just going to run into walls anyway.  I agree that it's much more useful if you want to spike something very expensive.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #103 on: December 14, 2014, 08:17:18 am »
0

Ossified Drone I've never bought, and it doesn't excite me because you rarely have spare Red and if Drones are being attacked you're in a bad shape anyway.  I'm sure it's useful occasionally though.

What amalloy said. The problem with the ossified drone is to find the right moment to buy it, because you don't want to lose early tempo if you are going red.

Another thing: defending with drones can and will win you the game. You have to know when to do it though.

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3 Engineers are arguably cheaper than a Wall.

Especially since you are somewhat unlikely to run out of Engineers, while running out of Walls is a somewhat common occurrence.

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Centrifuge, the resource pinata, is really good if you're not in danger of being rushed.

Centrifuge is especially good to buy high tech legendaries, like the Centurion. You will get them roughly at the same time as if you had bought all the necessary tech, without actually wasting money on unnecessary blastforges or animus.

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One big turn is much better than several smaller turns because breaching is so good.  So the bombs (Gauss Charge/Pixie) and synchronised periodic attackers are very useful.  The Red one-time freezers are great too because they disable Walls incredibly cheaply.

The other reason one big turn is better than many small turns is because you aren't wasting attack on walls. 0-0-9 attack means 7 attack will actually harm defenders. 3-3-3 means only 3 attack will harm defenders.


Personally, I tend to ignore basic units other than walls, unless I've got spare resources after buying whatever I wanted to buy. It's probably a mistake...
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #104 on: December 14, 2014, 09:08:35 am »
+9

The loading animation is, by the way, pretty fascinating. It's impossible for me to see it for what it really is all the time, no matter how hard I try to.

It is--in my opinion--much more fascinating when done using physical objects:

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #105 on: December 14, 2014, 01:16:58 pm »
0

completely unrelated, I really want a custom avatar. looks like the only way to get it though is to back the kickstarter with 50$ or more. I might just do that...

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #106 on: December 14, 2014, 07:00:38 pm »
0

Am I the only one that thinks Auric impulse and Doomed Drone seem massively underpowered?  Investing gold is important enough that banking gold to gain more gold later doesn't seem worth it.

I guess the clever thing to do with Doomed Drone is to get 2 gold out of it and then block with it the turn before it dies, though.  Hm.  Kinda better than Engineer that way I guess..
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #107 on: December 14, 2014, 07:04:50 pm »
+3

Am I the only one that thinks Auric impulse and Doomed Drone seem massively underpowered?  Investing gold is important enough that banking gold to gain more gold later doesn't seem worth it.

I guess the clever thing to do with Doomed Drone is to get 2 gold out of it and then block with it the turn before it dies, though.  Hm.  Kinda better than Engineer that way I guess..

I think what you mentioned is the primary use of doomed drone. It's a really cheap, delayed 1 defense blocker. Auric impulse is sort of like a drone that costs 5G instead of 3G1E that you can sell back on any turn by just not buying it again.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #108 on: December 14, 2014, 07:09:51 pm »
0

Am I the only one that thinks Auric impulse and Doomed Drone seem massively underpowered?  Investing gold is important enough that banking gold to gain more gold later doesn't seem worth it.

I guess the clever thing to do with Doomed Drone is to get 2 gold out of it and then block with it the turn before it dies, though.  Hm.  Kinda better than Engineer that way I guess..

the way I see it (I could be wrong), auric impulse is never really part of a strategy, unless you define it in a lot of detail, which will mostly not be possible, because you have to react to your opponent. It's just something you do whenever you have 5 gold that you aren't going to spend anyway, which does happen sometimes. But it's not an interesting unit, because it doesn't really change strategy very much.

Doomed drone has 3 uses
-> if you want a really cheap blocker and have time to build it early
-> if you have E2$ left and don't have anything else to buy
-> if you need all of your $ except 1 during your next turn

If you are going for serious income though, it's vastly inferior to a normal drone

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #109 on: December 14, 2014, 09:17:09 pm »
+1

Auric impulse is sort of like a drone that costs 5G instead of 3G1E that you can sell back on any turn by just not buying it again.

That's a really cool way to think of Auric Impulse. I've been thinking of it as more like "a way to avoid committing to building a Drone", because you can buy it, then build a Drone, which has the same effect as just building a Drone to begin with, except that you can change your mind about droning if something else becomes more urgent.

the way I see it (I could be wrong), auric impulse is never really part of a strategy, unless you define it in a lot of detail, which will mostly not be possible, because you have to react to your opponent. It's just something you do whenever you have 5 gold that you aren't going to spend anyway, which does happen sometimes. But it's not an interesting unit, because it doesn't really change strategy very much.

You're mostly right that Auric is not much of a strategic unit, being rather more tactical in that you usually buy it opportunistically to increase short-term flexibility. But there are a couple units that synergize well with Auric Impulse, enough that its presence might sway your overall plan towards them: Antima Comet and Iso Kronus. Both of these units have the unusual property of encouraging you to save up money rather than droning: with Iso, you want as much gold as possible every other turn, so you can grow your Iso stack while keeping it in sync; and with Antima, you want to build as many Engineers as possible next turn, meaning you can afford to float ten or fifteen gold for one turn. In both cases, a Drone would be much worse than an Auric Impulse, because it costs you two gold for the critical turn, and the returns you get back on future turns may not be worth it.

9avQ6-Yds9Q is the most recent game I played, in which I happened to use Auric Impulse effectively against Awaclus: I built two of them on the turn before my Antima hit, effectively gaining a free Engineer (and a free damage) that I couldn't have gotten without Auric Impule. I could even have gotten one more damage out if I'd build another Auric on turn 4 instead of Engineer+Drone. Maybe that's right, I dunno; it gains me an Engineer and a damage, at the expense of a Drone. Seems close, but in real life I didn't even think of it until I was writing up this post.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 10:39:14 pm by amalloy »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #110 on: December 14, 2014, 11:40:03 pm »
0

completely unrelated, I really want a custom avatar. looks like the only way to get it though is to back the kickstarter with 50$ or more. I might just do that...
Just did this myself. I did the $56 pledge, which also comes with the Prismata soundtrack. Yeah, I liked the groove of the Prismata music.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #111 on: December 15, 2014, 08:56:28 am »
0

If anyone is interested I am going live @ twitch.tv/azizqistemron to do a more beginner stream without music so that it can be viewed later. I should be starting in about 5 minutes.

Edit: Done streaming.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 03:27:48 pm by Temron »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #112 on: December 15, 2014, 05:36:56 pm »
0

Temron and I will be doing a stream tonight at 8:00 Pacific time (5 1/2 hours from the time of this post) intended to be accessible to Dominion folks. So if you're interested in the game but haven't tried it, or have played but are having trouble beating the bots or whatever, please stop by http://twitch.tv/amalloy and check it out. We'll be playing a slow-paced game with plenty of explanation and answering viewer questions.

Maybe we'll even commentate on some viewer games and/or coach if you want to join us on Skype? Who knows, sky's the limit! Let us know what you want to see.
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #113 on: December 15, 2014, 11:03:38 pm »
0

Temron and I will be doing a stream tonight at 8:00 Pacific time (5 1/2 hours from the time of this post) intended to be accessible to Dominion folks. So if you're interested in the game but haven't tried it, or have played but are having trouble beating the bots or whatever, please stop by http://twitch.tv/amalloy and check it out. We'll be playing a slow-paced game with plenty of explanation and answering viewer questions.

Maybe we'll even commentate on some viewer games and/or coach if you want to join us on Skype? Who knows, sky's the limit! Let us know what you want to see.

Due to some technical difficulties, we're at http://www.twitch.tv/azizqistemron instead. Starting now!
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #114 on: December 16, 2014, 03:08:16 pm »
0

Gave this a try today, and yeah, it's a little too much fun. I made it to tier II with 3 wins. Though, two of those wins were due to my opponent resigning when it wasn't clear at all to me that I was going to win.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2014, 03:35:54 pm »
0

I just played a super epic game that I somehow managed to win, and I feel so stupidly proud of myself that I am going to share the replay.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2014, 03:40:06 pm »
+1

I just played a super epic game that I somehow managed to win, and I feel so stupidly proud of myself that I am going to share the replay.
Woah, that's a lot of conduits...
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2014, 03:47:24 pm »
+1

I just played a super epic game that I somehow managed to win, and I feel so stupidly proud of myself that I am going to share the replay.
Woah, that's a lot of conduits...

I heard that and loaded up the replay, expecting to say "Well that's a Zemora game for you...". But no, apparently it is a Chieftain/Venge Cannon game? I think this was a few too many Conduits.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2014, 03:53:21 pm »
0

I just played a super epic game that I somehow managed to win, and I feel so stupidly proud of myself that I am going to share the replay.
Woah, that's a lot of conduits...

Probably I overdid it slightly, but two of them were locked buying chieftains, and I wanted to be able to go heavy venge cannon at some point (3 green to buy, 3 green to activate), so I kinda needed lots, and there's just so much time to think what you are doing.

I'm pretty sure I would have lost this if my opponent had gone red instead of green after buying Odin. He spent half the game smashing himself against chieftains that were going to die anyway, had a large economic advantage, and I wasn't pressuring him that much, so he could have swarmed me with bloodragers long before I got to the venge cannons.

But hey, victory is mine!
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #119 on: December 16, 2014, 10:56:33 pm »
0

So I just played a really fun game. First time I won with Zemora, even though I'm sure I played suboptimally. Really close and it came down to some really tricky defensive tactics. Any thoughts on how to improve?

AvgIm-R9O5s
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2014, 11:57:19 pm »
+2

So I just played a really fun game. First time I won with Zemora, even though I'm sure I played suboptimally. Really close and it came down to some really tricky defensive tactics. Any thoughts on how to improve?

AvgIm-R9O5s

The Blastforge into Flame Animus is a little questionable: you will want to build a lot of Tarsiers, and against an opponent who is trying to build this much economy, you'd like to apply pressure quickly, and a real Animus lets you get more Tarsiers sooner. You'd have to cut a drone, though, so the Flame Animus seems okay. The turn after that, though, I don't like building two drones or an Electrovore. I'd cut the drones for an Animus: three Tarsiers per turn is a lot of pressure for just a little money, and your economy is already pretty big; you just need to do short-term things now to help you survive until Zemora arrives, not invest in more gold income.

I'd also switch the Electrovore for a Tarsier: your opponent can get rid of all your Engineers in a big hurry if he wants to, and the Tarsier will deal damage. On the other hand, you did well to just accept this by defending with your Electrovore immediately, so maybe you got a great bargain by building a 4R Rhino.

On turn 9, I don't like the Forcefield. Just build a Barrier, and be prepared to sacrifice a Steelsplitter in the unlikely event your opponent attacks with everything. When you Forcefield, you commit to losing the Drone regardless, while your opponent gets to keep some units back on defense.

On turn 10, the second Animus is very bad: are you really hoping to spend over $20 on red in a single turn? There aren't even five Tarsiers left in the supply. Cut it for a Gauss Cannon or something, and put up a Barrier as well just to increase your defensive flexibility. As it happens, when he attacks for max the Barrier will go unused, but that's not a big deal: you will be wrecking him quite soon, and can afford an insurance policy as cheap as 1G.

On turn 11, you overdefended by one, because he can't possibly keep enough Engineers to fire all his Electrovores, even if he sacs the Wall instead of absorbing. Cut a Forcefield and replace it with Barrier.

None of these mistakes really cost you anything, because your opponent had a very bad plan: you can't just drone up against Zemora, you have to apply pressure to win before Zemora can save the day, or sometimes you can do okay getting your own Zemora. Overall I would say the mistake you made the most often was underutilizing Barrier: you have a giant pile of green available, which means that Barrier's cost is practically just a single gold. Often, you built a Forcefield when a Barrier would do; even two Barriers only costs one more gold than a Forcefield, while saving you a Drone and adding defensive flexibility.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #121 on: December 17, 2014, 04:31:57 am »
0

I guess, it's really worth it to try this game yourself if you're just a little interested.
I've started yesterday, I quite enjoy it.

I played a couple of games against the weakest bots before noticing that after the first five tutorials, there's also a second page of tutorials.
Can anyone help me with this newbie question about "Defense training 3"? (not the advanced one, actually the "normal" third one?)

I'm pretty sure you want to keep those units with the largest hitpoints and you want to kill enemy attackers that deal the most damage compared to their hitpoints when breaching. That said, I'm killing enemy Tarsiers first. The AI attacks with Gauss Cannons and Tarsiers himself. I'm losing my Engineers first, keeping my walls. But in the end, my walls are gone and I can't kill his Gauss Cannons fast enough.

Is that actually winnable, or do I have to think outside the box somehow? I tried to do something different, like trying to save an Engineer early on instead of the second Wall, or to attack the enemy Gauss Cannons earlier, but the only thing I've noticed was that I'm losing faster.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 04:35:45 am by assemble_me »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #122 on: December 17, 2014, 04:41:49 am »
+1

I guess, it's really worth it to try this game yourself if you're just a little interested.
I've started yesterday, I quite enjoy it.

I played a couple of games against the weakest bots before noticing that after the first five tutorials, there's also a second page of tutorials.
Can anyone help me with this newbie question about "Defense training 3"? (not the advanced one, actually the "normal" third one?)

I'm pretty sure you want to keep those units with the largest hitpoints and you want to kill enemy attackers that deal the most damage compared to their hitpoints when breaching. That said, I'm killing enemy Tarsiers first. The AI attacks with Gauss Cannons and Tarsiers himself. I'm losing my Engineers first, keeping my walls. But in the end, my walls are gone and I can't kill his Gauss Cannons fast enough.

Is that actually winnable, or do I have to think outside the box somehow? I tried to do something different, like trying to save an Engineer early on instead of the second Wall, or to attack the enemy Gauss Cannons earlier, but the only thing I've noticed was that I'm losing faster.

Hint: in a given turn, maximizing the amount of damage absorbed is important, but sometimes minimizing the number of units that you lose to an attack can be more important. If your opponent is consistently dealing, say, 3 damage, you are happier with a wall and two engineers than with two walls.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #123 on: December 17, 2014, 04:42:53 am »
+3

I guess, it's really worth it to try this game yourself if you're just a little interested.
I've started yesterday, I quite enjoy it.

I played a couple of games against the weakest bots before noticing that after the first five tutorials, there's also a second page of tutorials.
Can anyone help me with this newbie question about "Defense training 3"? (not the advanced one, actually the "normal" third one?)

I'm pretty sure you want to keep those units with the largest hitpoints and you want to kill enemy attackers that deal the most damage compared to their hitpoints when breaching. So while I'm trying this, I'm killing enemy Tarsiers first. The AI attacks with Gauss Cannons and Tarsiers himself. I'm losing my Engineers first, keeping my walls. But in the end, my walls are gone and I can't kill his Gauss Cannons fast enough.

Is that actually winnable, or do I have to think outside the box somehow? I tried to do something different, like trying to save an Engineer early on instead of the second Wall, or to attack the enemy Gauss Cannons earlier, but the only thing I've noticed was that I'm losing faster.

A general tactic you can apply to these defense puzzles goes like this:

  • First, figure out the right order to attack the enemy units. Here, it's easy: Tarsiers, then Tarsier+Gauss, then Gauss forever. Count up how many turns this will take to kill him. Here that's 9 turns.
  • Next, list how much he is attacking for on those 9 turns. He'll attack for 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1.
  • Finally, figure out how to budget your defense to survive the attacks he'll be making.

I don't want to spoil it with too much detail, but I think if you apply this plan and think about it, you can come up with the answer. And if you have trouble, here's a hint: the only interesting decision happens during your very first turn defending.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #124 on: December 17, 2014, 04:22:24 pm »
0

Lost a game to the "stealth" update. Didn't notice that Deadeye costed more, and didn't notice that now it can attack.

You probably want to check the news for the other changes if you had started getting acquainted with the units.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #125 on: December 17, 2014, 04:29:08 pm »
+1

I finally beat a real person!  (Mostly I've just been playing bots).  We used Deadeye's to eliminate each others drone, but I got through his defense a turn earlier afterwards, and that meant a win for me (using deadeye's attack and a few tarsiers that I picked up).

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #126 on: December 17, 2014, 04:46:50 pm »
+1

I really like defense grid :D
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #127 on: December 17, 2014, 04:47:11 pm »
+1

Lost a game to the "stealth" update. Didn't notice that Deadeye costed more, and didn't notice that now it can attack.

You probably want to check the news for the other changes if you had started getting acquainted with the units.

It's only a stealth update if you don't read the subreddit, though, which I do recommend reading: there's interesting stuff there, from the devs and from everyone, and it's not so high-traffic that following it is a lot of work.
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #128 on: December 17, 2014, 05:02:58 pm »
+1

Pretty proud of this one: http://play.prismata.net/?r=ivZnR-aAkrr
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #129 on: December 17, 2014, 05:16:29 pm »
0

Pretty proud of this one: http://play.prismata.net/?r=ivZnR-aAkrr

Bahahahaha those Cluster Bolts. Well played.

One note, though: you usually don't need/want to build the Engineers on the same turn as your built your Antima: you can just float the gold and buy them next turn. And once you've made that realization, you can cut two of your Engineers for Walls, one on each turn. Wall is $5 to get 3 hit points; if you have to defend with the Engineers it costs you $6 for the same amount of health, without actually adding any damage. The $2 you save there lets you squeak out one extra Engineer compared to your actual play.
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #130 on: December 17, 2014, 08:26:31 pm »
0

Pretty proud of this one: http://play.prismata.net/?r=ivZnR-aAkrr

Bahahahaha those Cluster Bolts. Well played.

One note, though: you usually don't need/want to build the Engineers on the same turn as your built your Antima: you can just float the gold and buy them next turn. And once you've made that realization, you can cut two of your Engineers for Walls, one on each turn. Wall is $5 to get 3 hit points; if you have to defend with the Engineers it costs you $6 for the same amount of health, without actually adding any damage. The $2 you save there lets you squeak out one extra Engineer compared to your actual play.
Yeah I realized I misplayed the engineers when he attacked, I thought I would have enough defense but I didn't.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #131 on: December 17, 2014, 09:56:02 pm »
+3

Alright, I'm hooked on this now...  Played for a few hours then backed it.  I'm still pretty crappy at it, but I'm getting better.  I'm AHoppy over there, feel free to add me. 

My biggest concern is I take a long time to think and I'm not sure how that's going to play out against real opponents...

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #132 on: December 17, 2014, 10:02:26 pm »
0

Alright, I'm hooked on this now...  Played for a few hours then backed it.  I'm still pretty crappy at it, but I'm getting better.  I'm AHoppy over there, feel free to add me. 

My biggest concern is I take a long time to think and I'm not sure how that's going to play out against real opponents...
Well, there's no real chat, so they won't harass you at least... if you're worried about the time control, you can set it to only match on the slowest time control, unless that's still too fast.

I got automatched with e today, had some fun games.

I really enjoyed the puzzles, especially the countdown one. However, I can't figure out how to beat the second boss... I feel like shadow fang has to be the way to go, but I can't find a build order that puts up enough defense while still building quickly.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #133 on: December 17, 2014, 10:50:36 pm »
0

Yeah, I haven't managed to beat the second boss either.

Oh yeah, I go by Markusin on Prismata. Feel free to add me.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #134 on: December 18, 2014, 12:10:16 am »
0

I didn't beat it either.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #135 on: December 18, 2014, 02:35:03 pm »
+3

I managed to get to Tier IX! I'm not going to stay there very long! Who cares! Bragging rights! I cannot stop using exclamation marks, sorry!
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #136 on: December 18, 2014, 02:43:52 pm »
+2

I thought once you hit a tier you cant be demoted?
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #137 on: December 18, 2014, 02:45:47 pm »
0

I managed to get to Tier IX! I'm not going to stay there very long! Who cares! Bragging rights! I cannot stop using exclamation marks, sorry!
I thought you can't go down tiers?

PPE: ninja'd...
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #138 on: December 18, 2014, 03:12:52 pm »
0

Oh, that's weird. Eventually everybody will be in tier X then! So cool... Meet you there! :P
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #139 on: December 18, 2014, 03:15:07 pm »
0

Oh, that's weird. Eventually everybody will be in tier X then! So cool... Meet you there! :P

Well, it's supposed to be pretty hard to progress in tiers unless you are actually improving; you can't just grind out wins like you can on the Hearthstone ladder, for example. It seems a lot easier to lose points than to win them, once you are near the top of a tier, because you are mostly being matched against people ranked lower than you, so you need quite a high win percentage to sustain your tier progress.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #140 on: December 18, 2014, 03:21:09 pm »
0

Oh, that's weird. Eventually everybody will be in tier X then! So cool... Meet you there! :P

Well, it's supposed to be pretty hard to progress in tiers unless you are actually improving; you can't just grind out wins like you can on the Hearthstone ladder, for example. It seems a lot easier to lose points than to win them, once you are near the top of a tier, because you are mostly being matched against people ranked lower than you, so you need quite a high win percentage to sustain your tier progress.

Key word being eventually :P
When you can only cross a barrier in one direction, even if movement is random and weighted away from the barrier, statistically everyone ends up on the other side of the barrier after a certain amount of time (granted, it might tend to infinity). Especially in this case, since you can't get arbitrarily far away from the barrier.
As long as the rate of promotions is sustained by the arrival of new players, this shouldn't be a problem. But well, it depends on both rates...
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #141 on: December 18, 2014, 03:23:48 pm »
+1

I hope they add more tiers above tier X as tier X gets full. But I'm still in tier IV so that's not a problem for me right now...
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 03:29:07 pm by liopoil »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #142 on: December 18, 2014, 10:46:54 pm »
0

I'm pretty proud of this game, it got pretty scary near the end
http://play.prismata.net/?r=Eo5Z3-pp1EF
I love Zemora Voidbringer

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #143 on: December 19, 2014, 02:44:04 am »
0

if sharing games is a thing...

http://play.prismata.net/?r=RcsQ5-1nttD

though I think I should have bought Tia to hit with the comet

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #145 on: December 19, 2014, 08:59:18 am »
+1

Key word being eventually :P
When you can only cross a barrier in one direction, even if movement is random and weighted away from the barrier, statistically everyone ends up on the other side of the barrier after a certain amount of time (granted, it might tend to infinity). Especially in this case, since you can't get arbitrarily far away from the barrier.
As long as the rate of promotions is sustained by the arrival of new players, this shouldn't be a problem. But well, it depends on both rates...

that's actually not true. if you have 50% or more for a win you will reach it eventually, but if you have less than 50%, there is a real percentage chance that you will reach it, and likewise a chance that you won't.

unless there is a gap on how low you can drop (like 0% progress in this case), then you do have 100% with infinite amount of time.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #146 on: December 19, 2014, 11:14:21 am »
0

Funded!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lunarchstudios/prismata-a-new-hybrid-game-of-pure-strategy
Sweet! I backed it with as much as I can afford at the moment. Those stretch goals look pretty awesome though! I'll bet they'll reach at least 1-2 of them. The Dev's have talked a lot about how many kickstarters tend to explode at the end with additional backing.

edit: grammar
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 11:19:43 am by Ichimaru Gin »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #147 on: December 19, 2014, 11:16:58 am »
+1

Key word being eventually :P
When you can only cross a barrier in one direction, even if movement is random and weighted away from the barrier, statistically everyone ends up on the other side of the barrier after a certain amount of time (granted, it might tend to infinity). Especially in this case, since you can't get arbitrarily far away from the barrier.
As long as the rate of promotions is sustained by the arrival of new players, this shouldn't be a problem. But well, it depends on both rates...

that's actually not true. if you have 50% or more for a win you will reach it eventually, but if you have less than 50%, there is a real percentage chance that you will reach it, and likewise a chance that you won't.

unless there is a gap on how low you can drop (like 0% progress in this case), then you do have 100% with infinite amount of time.
If your odds of winning don't change based on your position (i.e. always 40%) then you are guaranteed to promote in the infinite time limit. This is like the Gambler's ruin only promotion is going "bankrupt". Here's a link about it: http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~james/Markov/s13.pdf (on pg. 3)

This does not require a cap on how low your position can drop (or on how much money the gambler can win). There will still be a sequence of events which you are guaranteed to encounter in the infinite time limit that will lead to promotion (or bankruptcy). edit: I can't read, what I said above is incorrect.

After they talk about the gambler's ruin there's an example where you aren't guaranteed to end up in the absorbing state (which for us is promotion), it requires the probabilities to change based on your position. I didn't look at it closely but I'm pretty sure it will require (at some positions) your odds of winning to decrease the further you go down in position which doesn't seem like a very good model.

My guess is that to escape the absorbing state you need to have accelerating probabilities away from that state. I can't imagine having "stable" regions away from the absorbing state will cut it as infinite time will get you there for sure. I don't really know anything about this stuff though.

edit: I have said some wrong things here so read ahead for me being corrected.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 12:24:47 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #148 on: December 19, 2014, 11:59:53 am »
0

Key word being eventually :P
When you can only cross a barrier in one direction, even if movement is random and weighted away from the barrier, statistically everyone ends up on the other side of the barrier after a certain amount of time (granted, it might tend to infinity). Especially in this case, since you can't get arbitrarily far away from the barrier.
As long as the rate of promotions is sustained by the arrival of new players, this shouldn't be a problem. But well, it depends on both rates...

that's actually not true. if you have 50% or more for a win you will reach it eventually, but if you have less than 50%, there is a real percentage chance that you will reach it, and likewise a chance that you won't.

unless there is a gap on how low you can drop (like 0% progress in this case), then you do have 100% with infinite amount of time.

I was waiting to see how long it would take for someone to correct me... yeah, you are right, I spoke too soon. To prove that it works in this specific case, you would need to modelize the exact win probability and related rating increase. Note that because rating doesn't change by discrete amounts (I mean, technically yes, the precision of their floats), we can't really talk about rating being bounded from below.
But still, given the way ratings seem to work, and that your win chance shouldn't ever be much lower than 0.5, I think this holds.

If your odds of winning don't change based on your position (i.e. always 40%) then you are guaranteed to promote in the infinite time limit. This is like the Gambler's ruin only promotion is going "bankrupt". Here's a link about it: http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~james/Markov/s13.pdf (on pg. 3)

This does not require a cap on how low your position can drop (or on how much money the gambler can win). There will still be a sequence of events which you are guaranteed to encounter in the infinite time limit that will lead to promotion (or bankruptcy).

After they talk about the gambler's ruin there's an example where you aren't guaranteed to end up in the absorbing state (which for us is promotion), it requires the probabilities to change based on your position. I didn't look at it closely but I'm pretty sure it will require (at some positions) your odds of winning to decrease the further you go down in position which doesn't seem like a very good model.

My guess is that to escape the absorbing state you need to have accelerating probabilities away from that state. I can't imagine having "stable" regions away from the absorbing state will cut it as infinite time will get you there for sure. I don't really know anything about this stuff though.

Your link does state that the odds of getting into the absorbing state are less than 1 if your odds of moving away from the absorbing state are strictly higher than 0.5. You don't need "stable" regions away from the absorbing state.

You can think of it this way: you start in some random position x>0. Because the chances of getting away from the absorbing state (+1) are higher than those of approaching it (-1), eventually all paths (ignoring the absorbing state 0 for the time being) will go to +infinity. So now you just have to "count" how many of them pass through zero, and how many don't. So you've got a non-zero chance to pick a path that will never cross zero.
On the other hand, if probabilities were the other way, then all paths would go to -infinity, which means all paths cross zero at some point.
If you've got a 50/50 chance to win (+1), it's a bit harder to conceptualize the maths...

Maybe blueblimp wants to start a new thread where he works through the maths of ELOs and tiers? :P
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 12:25:56 pm by pacovf »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #149 on: December 19, 2014, 12:06:44 pm »
0

Your link does state that the odds of getting into the absorbing state are less than 1 if your odds of moving away from the absorbing state are strictly higher than 0.5. You don't need "stable" regions away from the absorbing state.
Where does it say that?
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #150 on: December 19, 2014, 12:13:25 pm »
0

if you lose every match with a >50% chance, then your odds of promoting do decrease with every step. if, for example, you have 1% chance to win each individual match, start with 0 points, need 1 point to promote, and each win/loss equals +/-1 point, then you have 1% chance to promote instantly, but with each loss that chance decreases. after the first loss your chance for instant promotion is 0,01%. overall, you roughly get a chance of 1% + 0,01% + 0,0001% ... = 1,01010101...%. that's slightly simplified, because if you do get a win the chance does increase again, but that doesn't weigh in heavily, and it's useful to understand why your chance does stay low.

so much for my logical approach. if I read your article correctly, it just states that you lose eventually with a neutral or negative winrate (which is what pacofv just said)

Quote
thus, even if you find a fair casino, you're certain to end up broke

it does not state that you don't go broke with a positive winrate, but the fact that it also doesn't state that you do seems like a strong indication that you don't.

this is actually something I randomly started thinking about about a year ago, without ever having heard of gambler's ruin. I concluded that you always lose with <50% and =50%, and have a chance to lose with >50% for each individual match. I even came up with a formal proof that you always lose with exactly 50%.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 12:19:20 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #151 on: December 19, 2014, 12:18:48 pm »
0

Your link does state that the odds of getting into the absorbing state are less than 1 if your odds of moving away from the absorbing state are strictly higher than 0.5. You don't need "stable" regions away from the absorbing state.
Where does it say that?

Can't copy text from a pdf...

P:4 "
If p>q, then since h0 = 1 we get a family of solutions hi = (q/p)^i + A*(1-(q/p)^i); for a non-negative solution we must have A>=0, so the minimal non-negative solution is hi = (q/p)^i
"

Ergo, hi < 1, so there's a chance you don't ever get into the absorbing state.

I also edited my previous post BTW.

EDIT: actually, if A = 1, hi = 1. Hrm let me see if they say anything else.

EDIT2: oh ok, they actually prove before that that the solution has to be minimal, so yeah.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 12:38:14 pm by pacovf »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #152 on: December 19, 2014, 12:21:54 pm »
+1

Sorry all, I need to work on my reading skills.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #153 on: December 19, 2014, 10:29:05 pm »
0

So, uhh, that hard boss. I've managed to breach and kill the gunbots, but it's not enough! I run out of drones :(
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #154 on: December 20, 2014, 12:28:40 am »
0

So, uhh, that hard boss. I've managed to breach and kill the gunbots, but it's not enough! I run out of drones :(

I've seen a video where a guy from the staff talked about this one. he said it was designed to be crazy difficult, and that a lot of players tried it for hours without making it. but it is possible to do it, and you can even do it without building engineers.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #155 on: December 20, 2014, 07:03:03 am »
+1

http://play.prismata.net/?r=xZVj7-nfWXK

My current project is to defend without Walls when possible.  This game had Wild Drone, Chieftain, and Feral Warden, so it was a perfect opportunity.  It also had (new-style) Apollo, which ruled out Feral Warden and most of the attackers.  So I buy one Chieftain a turn when I can, and take Gauss Cannons for attack.  My opponent defends with Walls, which I snipe with Apollo after dealing with their foray into Hellhounds, and when the Walls run out they burn all their drones into Forcefields.  A breach takes out their Auride Cores, and then it's a case of making sure I don't defend stupidly.

I did make at least a couple of stupid mistakes in this game.  I buy an Animus that I never use (everything Red is vulnerable to Apollo), but at least it soaks up an Apollo snipe.  I also buy a Blastforge after my last one is destroyed when I already have two Synthesizers and a large stockpile of Green.

I'm not sure how important it is here, but I'm a fan of Wild Drone in general.  It's either cheap defence or cheap economy, both of which are great.  The main problem with it defensively is that your opponent can just ignore it if they want to, so you need to have something else too.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #156 on: December 20, 2014, 07:13:02 am »
0

So, I'm enjoying the game, but three times now while playing I've had Windows Blue Screen with an SQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL error, or something very similar to that at least. Has this happened to anyone else? It's kinda hard to play the game when any longer game ends up crashing like this :(.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #157 on: December 20, 2014, 07:31:52 am »
0

I'm having no problem in Chromium on Ubuntu.  It takes a while to load occasionally, but I'm prepared to put that down to server load.  It's better than Goko at any rate.  I tried to play Dominion this morning and every time it crashed after showing the loading screen for about 5 minutes.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #158 on: December 20, 2014, 07:44:14 am »
+1

http://play.prismata.net/?r=xZVj7-nfWXK

My current project is to defend without Walls when possible.  This game had Wild Drone, Chieftain, and Feral Warden, so it was a perfect opportunity.  It also had (new-style) Apollo, which ruled out Feral Warden and most of the attackers.  So I buy one Chieftain a turn when I can, and take Gauss Cannons for attack.  My opponent defends with Walls, which I snipe with Apollo after dealing with their foray into Hellhounds, and when the Walls run out they burn all their drones into Forcefields.  A breach takes out their Auride Cores, and then it's a case of making sure I don't defend stupidly.

I did make at least a couple of stupid mistakes in this game.  I buy an Animus that I never use (everything Red is vulnerable to Apollo), but at least it soaks up an Apollo snipe.  I also buy a Blastforge after my last one is destroyed when I already have two Synthesizers and a large stockpile of Green.

I'm not sure how important it is here, but I'm a fan of Wild Drone in general.  It's either cheap defence or cheap economy, both of which are great.  The main problem with it defensively is that your opponent can just ignore it if they want to, so you need to have something else too.

you are way overestimating how good apollo is. don't build gauss canons over tarsiers just because he's there. the only reason why that didn't cost you the game was that both of you did it.

i think :)

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #159 on: December 20, 2014, 08:02:52 am »
0

Thanks!  I had forgotten that Apollo is now legendary when I started, so I was a bit worried about losing Tarsiers under a flood of Apollos.  Is sniping of Animus not going to be a problem if I go heavy on Red?
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #160 on: December 20, 2014, 08:20:09 am »
0

Apollo is going to be a problem, but skipping Tarsiers doesn't really make him that much less of a problem. If a finished tarsier is worth 6$, he's worth just as much as an Animus. Even if you skip red completely, he's worth just 1$ more than a blastforge (plus the production facilities are often better targets for Apollo anyway, because you can screw with your opponent's resource balance).

So, you probably do get a small advantage out of having Gauss Canons instead of Tarsiers, but I'm pretty sure it's not enough to justify the difference in cost. Gauss canon is just so weak.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 08:21:10 am by silverspawn »
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pingpongsam

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #161 on: December 20, 2014, 02:23:42 pm »
+6

With 4 hours left I got myself a Christmas present and backed for $50.

I hope I don't hate myself since I am pretty terrible at it so far.
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qmech

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #162 on: December 20, 2014, 05:12:17 pm »
0

http://play.prismata.net/?r=BW3ZB-qfvaK

So here's a game in which I do ignore Apollo and lose.  Is it because the game went on so long (30 turns, although I'd lost by 20ish) that Apollo was very efficient damage?
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #163 on: December 20, 2014, 05:51:52 pm »
0

So, uhh, that hard boss. I've managed to breach and kill the gunbots, but it's not enough! I run out of drones :(

I've seen a video where a guy from the staff talked about this one. he said it was designed to be crazy difficult, and that a lot of players tried it for hours without making it. but it is possible to do it, and you can even do it without building engineers.
I saw that video too. Have you beaten it? Here's the best I've been able to do:

DD/DD/DAA/Fang+Rhino/FangEE (leave drone back)/FangE(leave drone back)/Fang(leave 4 drones back)/Breach for 4/Breach for 5 and lose.
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qmech

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #164 on: December 20, 2014, 06:41:25 pm »
0

Funded with $140 000 on the nose! 

(People were switching to Paypal.)
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #165 on: December 20, 2014, 11:38:38 pm »
0

Have you beaten it?
no, I gave up after like 5 tries

GeoLib

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #166 on: December 21, 2014, 12:39:41 am »
0

What determines whether things with one health have red or blue health? There's no difference, right? I just don't think it really makes sense for non-blocking 1-health things to have blue health. Thinking of Gauss charge in particular here.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #167 on: December 21, 2014, 12:44:12 am »
+2

http://play.prismata.net/?r=BW3ZB-qfvaK

So here's a game in which I do ignore Apollo and lose.  Is it because the game went on so long (30 turns, although I'd lost by 20ish) that Apollo was very efficient damage?

I think you did two big mistakes this game.

The most important one was to buy multiple Xeno Guardians. Xeno is a good unit because he has vigilante. He can attack and block at the same time (and has 4 health). That's super good, and it's often a reason to get him as fast as possible, but you almost never want to buy multiple copies of him. Each one after the first one is just an overly expensive Tarsier. Think about it, aside from the first one, what does he do to make him more valuable than a Tarsier? If you block with more than one, you lose them, which you don't want to happen anyway. After the first one, buying multiple copies is actually even worse than buying Gauss Canons, as they cost 9$ and are basically equally strong.

The second mistake was not to get Apollo. Man, I never said not to get Apollo. What I said was, Apollo is not a reason for you to get Gauss Canons, because getting Gauss Canons doesn't protect you from him. Get Tarsiers over Gauss Canons, but then buy him anyway (if the game goes that long). Your opponent did have good targets, he had two Steelsplitters, which cost 7$.

Of course, in this game you do have to find a secondary damage source eventually, simply because there are just 10 Tarsiers in the supply. What I would have done is, get one Xeno ASAP and then look for the most efficient source of damage. Tarsier is one damage for 5$, that's the best. Get all 10 of them before you buy any other damage units. After that, the second best is one damage for $7 from either Steelsplitter or Gauss Canon, so start getting those. And add Apollo at some point during that.

By the way, if anyone disagrees with anything I say, please comment on it.

What determines whether things with one health have red or blue health? There's no difference, right? I just don't think it really makes sense for non-blocking 1-health things to have blue health. Thinking of Gauss charge in particular here.

I think blue is considered "normal", so for one health units, where it makes no difference, they just went with that.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #168 on: December 21, 2014, 12:50:06 am »
+1

What determines whether things with one health have red or blue health? There's no difference, right? I just don't think it really makes sense for non-blocking 1-health things to have blue health. Thinking of Gauss charge in particular here.
They could introduce effects in the future that modify the health of units and then it will matter whether the thing is fragile or not.
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Awaclus

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #169 on: December 21, 2014, 03:01:53 am »
+1

What determines whether things with one health have red or blue health? There's no difference, right? I just don't think it really makes sense for non-blocking 1-health things to have blue health. Thinking of Gauss charge in particular here.

It needs to be specifically fragile in order to have red health, so blue health is simpler.
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #170 on: December 21, 2014, 06:30:39 am »
+1

http://play.prismata.net/?r=BW3ZB-qfvaK

So here's a game in which I do ignore Apollo and lose.  Is it because the game went on so long (30 turns, although I'd lost by 20ish) that Apollo was very efficient damage?

I think you did two big mistakes this game.

The most important one was to buy multiple Xeno Guardians. Xeno is a good unit because he has vigilante. He can attack and block at the same time (and has 4 health). That's super good, and it's often a reason to get him as fast as possible, but you almost never want to buy multiple copies of him. Each one after the first one is just an overly expensive Tarsier. Think about it, aside from the first one, what does he do to make him more valuable than a Tarsier? If you block with more than one, you lose them, which you don't want to happen anyway. After the first one, buying multiple copies is actually even worse than buying Gauss Canons, as they cost 9$ and are basically equally strong.

The second mistake was not to get Apollo. Man, I never said not to get Apollo. What I said was, Apollo is not a reason for you to get Gauss Canons, because getting Gauss Canons doesn't protect you from him. Get Tarsiers over Gauss Canons, but then buy him anyway (if the game goes that long). Your opponent did have good targets, he had two Steelsplitters, which cost 7$.

Of course, in this game you do have to find a secondary damage source eventually, simply because there are just 10 Tarsiers in the supply. What I would have done is, get one Xeno ASAP and then look for the most efficient source of damage. Tarsier is one damage for 5$, that's the best. Get all 10 of them before you buy any other damage units. After that, the second best is one damage for $7 from either Steelsplitter or Gauss Canon, so start getting those. And add Apollo at some point during that.

By the way, if anyone disagrees with anything I say, please comment on it.

Your cost conversion is confusing me... You are converting every special resource into one coin. I think that is very misleading. One coin is not equal to any other resource. Heck, resources are very much not equal to each other. One spark, one green, one blue or one red are wildly different in "cost".

Anyway, Apollo is quite possibly the unit I understand the least (I think I've lost most games that involved him), so disclaimer.

I am still unsure whether tarsiers are a good target for Apollo, because they are cheap, and they make your opponent fear breaches. You can snipe your opponent tarsiers, sure, but he can flood you with them faster than you can take them out. And taking them all out actually removes a weakness from his strategy. I guess it depends on how long you think the game is going to be, and what your short term breaching perspectives look like.
That's a problem with all heavy-blue strategies though: if your opponent sees that you are going that way and goes heavy red, you are already heavily disadvantaged anyway. I think.

I disagree with your opinion that gauss cannons don't counter Apollo. The objective of going heavy green is to reduce possible Apollo targets to drones or conduits, while you keep hammering him with reliable attack. Even if he breaches, you don't really care that much, because green units have a lot of health (just don't let him destroy all your drones). Whether this strategy works depends on what else is in the board, of course. For example here, I think Xenoguardians are good. While they are expensive, costing 7 coins and extra blue (!), they are still immune to Apollo, and they defend you. It's hard to find something to defend yourself against Apollo, since they chew through most defenses (walls, rhinos, what have you) quite quickly.
You are right that gauss cannons are slow though, so if that's the only thing you can buy with green, it's probably better to go for Apollo yourself.

About Xenoguardians: you want to compare them to steelsplitters, not to tarsiers. If you want a tarsier, buy a tarsier. If you want a steelsplitter, see if you can buy a xenoguardian instead.

I don't know if it is that clear cut here whether you want to go Apollo or not. The Apollo player can use his extra blue for grenade mech and pixies (and xenoguardians). The green player can get xenoguardians to defend himself and keep the attack going... well that may be too slow now that I think about it. Meh. Ok yeah maybe you want to go Apollo here anyway.

One last thing, I notice that your opponent doesn't rush his Apollo, but instead builds up some Apollo-resistant attack first, which obviously delays his Apollo by 5 turns. It works out for him because qmech doesn't build any good Apollo target (walls, steelsplitters) until later. That's actually quite well done, I have to try to remember to do that.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 06:34:59 am by pacovf »
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qmech

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #171 on: December 21, 2014, 07:17:28 am »
+1

I think the comparison between Xeno Guardians and Steelsplitters is a good one, but you can spin the conclusion the other way: how often do you want to buy multiple Steelsplitters?  silvespawn is suggesting viewing it as a mini Colossus, which makes some sense to me.  There still seems to be some attraction to massing Xeno Guardians though, as they allow you to attack whilst building up defence for the future.  But maybe they're so expensive that that's rarely a good idea.

http://play.prismata.net/?r=m8OEn-ocTSR

Here's a slightly less embarrassing Xeno Guardians game.  Here I do buy a couple for defence as my opponent has two Frost Brooders.  Is that a reasonable play?  There are undoubtedly other problems with this game (I have far too much red, having some idea of buying Lucina Spinos, but deciding that it's far too breach vulnerable, although I do get a nice Tarsier burst on one turn), and I think I mostly won due to errors by my opponent (they allowed me to breach and kill 6 Tarsiers, and spent their Chill what felt to me like too soon).

I'm also not completely sold on projecting costs down to a single axis.  It's a useful starting point, and something I do when comparing various units, but I don't think you want to take it too seriously.
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qmech

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #172 on: December 21, 2014, 07:50:49 am »
+1

http://play.prismata.net/?r=65RlR-I7Bsu

First time I've bought Blood Pact.  I'm spinning my wheels with Zemora Voidbringer and have burnt through most of the Walls and Ferals when, under heavy time pressure, my opponent lets me kill his Centurion.  I have to go all in with my Steelsplitters, so Blood Pact steps in to prevent a return breach.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #173 on: December 21, 2014, 08:59:59 am »
+2

Your cost conversion is confusing me... You are converting every special resource into one coin. I think that is very misleading. One coin is not equal to any other resource. Heck, resources are very much not equal to each other. One spark, one green, one blue or one red are wildly different in "cost".
It is of course not correct, but it's a good enough metric for the point I was trying to make. a slightly better metric would be red = 1$, green = 4/3$, blue = 5/3$, but really, that doesn't hurt my point at all, because it just makes tarsier even cheaper.

I disagree with your opinion that gauss cannons don't counter Apollo. The objective of going heavy green is to reduce possible Apollo targets to drones or conduits, while you keep hammering him with reliable attack.
I wasn't saying that it does nothing to defend, I was saying that it is not worth it, because the disadvantage of buying Gauss Canons over Tarsiers is way too big.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #174 on: December 21, 2014, 01:09:06 pm »
0

How do you play Antima Comet?

http://play.prismata.net/?r=MfdGM-VNbzf

The game might is mostly just something to hang the question off.  I've learnt through experience that playing Antima half a turn after your opponent is a losing move as all your Engineers die to their comet and then your comet does nothing at all.  So here I decided to just hold off the comet any way I could and then fire my own off later.  Is this the right sort of approach?  I could also probably have been first to the comet if I'd wanted to (skipping the Frost Brooder).  How fast do you want the comet in general?
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #175 on: December 21, 2014, 04:54:09 pm »
+2

How do you play Antima Comet?

Before the latest patch, Comet was a pretty strong rush card for P2, with DD DDC DDB Comet WEEEEEEEEEE being at least halfway viable on almost any board. Now that it costs 3RGB, it's more of a tactical mid-game unit, because the investment to rush it is much larger, so you're usually right to put it off.  And indeed, as you say, countering Comet with Comet is pretty dreadful.

The thing about Comet is it's a big tempo play: you buy yourself a turn or two to work on whatever is important while your opponent defends. Maybe that's droning, or maybe it's getting out four Tarsiers and an Amporilla behind your big pile of Engineers. But you rarely break your opponent with a Comet, just slow him down, so you need a follow-up plan. In your game, it looks like that plan was an Asteri, which seems fine.

The counter-play to Comet is often to defend efficiently, with Walls or other blue super-walls, while not getting too far behind in economy. Building attack is usually not a huge priority, because your opponent can defend it comfortably for a long time. Once you've gotten your economy established, and whittled down your opponent's Engineers, then you can consider a counter-Comet, to let you catch up on whatever it is you need tempo for.
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #176 on: December 21, 2014, 05:55:20 pm »
+1

If we are talking specific units, there's some that still confuse me:

-Odin: what are you supposed to do with this guy? I used to click on it all the time, but after some games that slowly turned sour for me, I am starting to think that it might be better to defend with it, especially if it is the highest health unit in the set. Thoughts?

-Cauterizer: he's freakishly expensive for two attack (the similarly priced Cynestra has three attack). When is it good? I am "translating" the cumbersome way it works as "At the beginning of your turn, gain 2 attack. You can sacrifice this for 7 health. While this is in play, engineers gain prompt.", which basically makes this a very defensive attacker. It seems kind of awkward to place in your build queue.

-Hannibull: cheaper than Cauterizers but more expensive than Iceblade Golems. There's only 4 of them, and has the huge disadvantage of being frontline. I have absolutely no idea what to do with them. They are very strong on paper, but when my opponent knows what she's doing, they always fizzle for me.

-Hellhound: anyone ever bought one?
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #177 on: December 21, 2014, 06:32:08 pm »
0

The first three I rarely get, they seem weak to me. However, I get hellhound quite commonly.

I've been losing a lot of games by miscounting things in some way or another. I've had 7 green for Zemora way to many times...

Meanwhile, if anyone has any advice on the hard boss puzzle I'd appreciate it. It's really bugging me.
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qmech

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #178 on: December 21, 2014, 06:47:50 pm »
+1

But you rarely break your opponent with a Comet, just slow him down, so you need a follow-up plan. In your game, it looks like that plan was an Asteri, which seems fine.

Yes ... plan ...

-Odin
-Cauterizer
-Hannibull
-Hellhound

Odin I think is a big fat wall with the option of burst damage that can force your opponent to overdefend.  Cauterizer I've no idea.  I thought Hannibull should be for rushing, but by the time you have enough of them to kill things they tend to die on the front line.  Hellhound is a faster Tarsier with a nice bonus.
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Rabid

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #179 on: December 21, 2014, 06:50:08 pm »
+1

Meanwhile, if anyone has any advice on the hard boss puzzle I'd appreciate it. It's really bugging me.

Hint: Fast Aggression.
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #180 on: December 21, 2014, 06:53:37 pm »
+2

Meanwhile, if anyone has any advice on the hard boss puzzle I'd appreciate it. It's really bugging me.

Hint: Fast Aggression.
Yep, that's what I've been doing. I even managed to breach and kill the gunbots, but I get breached afterwards because I run out of drones. And I feel I have optimized the build order/engineers.

Here's the best I've been able to do:

DD/DD/DAA/Fang+Rhino/FangEE (leave drone back)/FangE(leave drone back)/Fang(leave 4 drones back)/Breach for 4/Breach for 5 and lose.

EDIT: I did it! Thanks for the help Rabid! (He sent me a PM with another hint)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 07:42:59 pm by liopoil »
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #181 on: December 21, 2014, 06:57:19 pm »
0

Cauterizer sorta combo's with Antima comet for an extra 2 attack when the comet hits. It comes with engineer defenders, but then it can't attech when the engineers are go so meh.

Hellhound does the extra engineers for utility thing better. I don't understand the effect thematically though. Are they saying engineers are devilish?
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amalloy

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #182 on: December 21, 2014, 07:57:09 pm »
+2

-Odin: what are you supposed to do with this guy? I used to click on it all the time, but after some games that slowly turned sour for me, I am starting to think that it might be better to defend with it, especially if it is the highest health unit in the set. Thoughts?

Clicking Odin is something you should generally do only if you're desperate, or you get a great opportunity. It gains you 4 attack this turn, and costs you 1 attack every turn for the rest of the game; it's kinda the inverse of Blood Pact, in a weird way. Odin is usually best treated as a 3/5 with extra breach pressure, where you never click on him but do click his Steelsplitters. In 9avQ6-Yds9Q I had probably won the game already after my Antima Comet hit, but Odin was able to lock things down by soaking 4 damage per turn, with his extra 4-damage breach threat forcing Awaclus to defend for more than I could sustainably attack for.

Quote
-Cauterizer: he's freakishly expensive for two attack (the similarly priced Cynestra has three attack). When is it good? I am "translating" the cumbersome way it works as "At the beginning of your turn, gain 2 attack. You can sacrifice this for 7 health. While this is in play, engineers gain prompt.", which basically makes this a very defensive attacker. It seems kind of awkward to place in your build queue.
$11 for 7 health is a pretty decent defensive deal already, and you get to deal 2 damage for a turn or two as well. In 8wCZu-d9ews, my opponent manages his Engineers very carefully to keep his Cauterizers firing as long as possible, and uses the giant HP buffer to get up a ton of Tarsiers that I can't really threaten to breach even with a Frost Brooder.

Quote
-Hannibull: cheaper than Cauterizers but more expensive than Iceblade Golems. There's only 4 of them, and has the huge disadvantage of being frontline. I have absolutely no idea what to do with them. They are very strong on paper, but when my opponent knows what she's doing, they always fizzle for me.
I have trouble playing with Hannibulls too. They are a decent rusher, if you can put enough pressure on to stop your opponent ever getting 6 attack, but if you can't manage that you are in a lot of trouble. As a frontline unit, it combos well with other frontline units, for example Wild Drone. If you can rely on your beefy frontline units to be hard to kill, you can completely ignore building defense. Hannibull can also be decent in the mid- to late-game where your opponent is getting close to breaching you: he either lets you get away with 2 attack fairly cheaply, or he spends 6 precious damage killing just $9 worth of stuff, which can give your defense a break. In c9aId-zELyn, I get the dream combo of Wild Drone + Hannibull, and just let him chew through my regular Drones, ignoring his Wild Drones to bull-rush (har har) his defenders, preventing him getting any attack up.

Quote
-Hellhound: anyone ever bought one?

Hellhounds are amazing. They only cost a tiny bit more than Tarsiers, and don't have to wait a turn to attack. The extra Engineer is also a huge help in defending these breach-vulnerable units. Really, $5 is the cheapest you can get a unit that attacks for 1 every turn without some disadvantage (eg, Tarsiers don't attack next turn, Rhinos only attack twice, Shredders are frontline...). Hellhounds even come with an advantage! As long as R/B isn't a bad tech choice in the set, Hellhound is a great way to make use of your tech investment when there's nothing else urgent to do. In 9gmQa-sHeFl, for example, I get a second Blastforge early so I can double-Hellhound instead of double-Tarsier; the initial investment of $5 is a bit steep, but pays for itself with the attack efficiency, and helps out later when I need to start getting a lot of Walls.
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markusin

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #183 on: December 22, 2014, 01:44:42 pm »
0

Meanwhile, if anyone has any advice on the hard boss puzzle I'd appreciate it. It's really bugging me.

Hint: Fast Aggression.
Yep, that's what I've been doing. I even managed to breach and kill the gunbots, but I get breached afterwards because I run out of drones. And I feel I have optimized the build order/engineers.

Here's the best I've been able to do:

DD/DD/DAA/Fang+Rhino/FangEE (leave drone back)/FangE(leave drone back)/Fang(leave 4 drones back)/Breach for 4/Breach for 5 and lose.

EDIT: I did it! Thanks for the help Rabid! (He sent me a PM with another hint)
Thanks for the hint guys. I managed to beat it too. I don't quite remember what I did, but I'm sure I think I started with DD/DD/DAA/Fang+Rhino.

I won while preventing the boss from ever building an Eviscerator
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 02:28:11 pm by markusin »
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liopoil

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #184 on: December 22, 2014, 06:50:57 pm »
0

Rabid's hint was actually to start differently - I'm impressed you managed to do it that way, I couldn't stop him from building eviscerator that way.
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pacovf

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #185 on: December 22, 2014, 07:04:29 pm »
+1

$11 for 7 health is a pretty decent defensive deal already, and you get to deal 2 damage for a turn or two as well.

You realize that you are describing chieftains, right? And that chieftains cost $7? Sure, cauterizers are more flexible (don't have lifespan, etc.), but still...

Quote
Hellhounds are amazing. They only cost a tiny bit more than Tarsiers, and don't have to wait a turn to attack. The extra Engineer is also a huge help in defending these breach-vulnerable units. Really, $5 is the cheapest you can get a unit that attacks for 1 every turn without some disadvantage (eg, Tarsiers don't attack next turn, Rhinos only attack twice, Shredders are frontline...). Hellhounds even come with an advantage! As long as R/B isn't a bad tech choice in the set, Hellhound is a great way to make use of your tech investment when there's nothing else urgent to do. In 9gmQa-sHeFl, for example, I get a second Blastforge early so I can double-Hellhound instead of double-Tarsier; the initial investment of $5 is a bit steep, but pays for itself with the attack efficiency, and helps out later when I need to start getting a lot of Walls.

I am not arguing about the coin cost, which is awesome. I am arguing about the tech cost. Early in the game, if you are buying both an animus and a blastforge, it better be for a very good reason, and hellhounds just don't cut it IMHO. Later in the game, no way you are spending your blue resources into non-prompt two health units. That doesn't leave that many occasions to buy hellhounds.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #186 on: December 22, 2014, 07:15:29 pm »
+1

$11 for 7 health is a pretty decent defensive deal already, and you get to deal 2 damage for a turn or two as well.

You realize that you are describing chieftains, right? And that chieftains cost $7? Sure, cauterizers are more flexible (don't have lifespan, etc.), but still...

Cauterizers are a lot easier to defend with, because they're not a single 7-health unit. If your opponent attacks for 3, you can lose one Engineer into your Wall, while still attacking with your Cauterizer. But a Chieftain you have to hold back in order to defend with, and then you have to either lose it or not get any absorb at all. Plus if you buy a Chieftain you lose that green you've been storing up, whereas the resources for Cauterizer were disappearing anyway.

Quote
Quote
Hellhounds are amazing. They only cost a tiny bit more than Tarsiers, and don't have to wait a turn to attack. The extra Engineer is also a huge help in defending these breach-vulnerable units. Really, $5 is the cheapest you can get a unit that attacks for 1 every turn without some disadvantage (eg, Tarsiers don't attack next turn, Rhinos only attack twice, Shredders are frontline...). Hellhounds even come with an advantage! As long as R/B isn't a bad tech choice in the set, Hellhound is a great way to make use of your tech investment when there's nothing else urgent to do. In 9gmQa-sHeFl, for example, I get a second Blastforge early so I can double-Hellhound instead of double-Tarsier; the initial investment of $5 is a bit steep, but pays for itself with the attack efficiency, and helps out later when I need to start getting a lot of Walls.

I am not arguing about the coin cost, which is awesome. I am arguing about the tech cost. Early in the game, if you are buying both an animus and a blastforge, it better be for a very good reason, and hellhounds just don't cut it IMHO. Later in the game, no way you are spending your blue resources into non-prompt two health units. That doesn't leave that many occasions to buy hellhounds.

I dunno, red+blue is a pretty reasonable tech choice anyway a lot of the time. Tarsiers behind Walls is like the most standard thing there is.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #187 on: December 22, 2014, 07:39:59 pm »
0

Rabid's hint was actually to start differently - I'm impressed you managed to do it that way, I couldn't stop him from building eviscerator that way.
Yeah I haven't been able to recreate what I did. I might have started a bit different, but not by much. Still went heavy Shadowfangs at the start or something, but transitioned to walls somehow.

I ended up finding solution online afterwards. It actually had a very different start. like, Animus opening into Tarsiers.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #188 on: December 22, 2014, 07:44:38 pm »
+1

Cauterizers are a lot easier to defend with, because they're not a single 7-health unit. If your opponent attacks for 3, you can lose one Engineer into your Wall, while still attacking with your Cauterizer. But a Chieftain you have to hold back in order to defend with, and then you have to either lose it or not get any absorb at all. Plus if you buy a Chieftain you lose that green you've been storing up, whereas the resources for Cauterizer were disappearing anyway.

Yeah, I kinda got that, I think we are mostly agreeing. Basically, Cauterizers are defensive units disguised as offensive ones (sorta). Still, the problem remains that they are very hard to place in your build queue... I guess I'll have to think about this one harder.

Quote
I dunno, red+blue is a pretty reasonable tech choice anyway a lot of the time. Tarsiers behind Walls is like the most standard thing there is.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly. Say you are going red+blue, then you need to spend all your blue on defensive units (read: walls), because red units tend to be mmm "fragile". Hellhound doesn't help with that. Sure, if your opponent randomly gives you a turn where you don't need to build defenses, then go ahead and buy yourself a Hellhound and be happy, but how often does that happen?

As an aside, from personal experience, building more than one blastforge with the plan to buy more than one wall per turn is a recipe for disaster. It's expensive, and you better win right there somehow despite spending $10 on defense per turn, or else you'll have a very bad surprise when you run out of walls (which will happen in 5 turns tops).

PS: in case my somewhat argumentative tone would hide it, I really appreciate your pieces of wisdom!
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #189 on: December 22, 2014, 07:53:03 pm »
+2

Cauterizers are a lot easier to defend with, because they're not a single 7-health unit. If your opponent attacks for 3, you can lose one Engineer into your Wall, while still attacking with your Cauterizer. But a Chieftain you have to hold back in order to defend with, and then you have to either lose it or not get any absorb at all. Plus if you buy a Chieftain you lose that green you've been storing up, whereas the resources for Cauterizer were disappearing anyway.

Yeah, I kinda got that, I think we are mostly agreeing. Basically, Cauterizers are defensive units disguised as offensive ones (sorta). Still, the problem remains that they are very hard to place in your build queue... I guess I'll have to think about this one harder.

Quote
I dunno, red+blue is a pretty reasonable tech choice anyway a lot of the time. Tarsiers behind Walls is like the most standard thing there is.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly. Say you are going red+blue, then you need to spend all your blue on defensive units (read: walls), because red units tend to be mmm "fragile". Hellhound doesn't help with that. Sure, if your opponent randomly gives you a turn where you don't need to build defenses, then go ahead and buy yourself a Hellhound and be happy, but how often does that happen?

As an aside, from personal experience, building more than one blastforge with the plan to buy more than one wall per turn is a recipe for disaster. It's expensive, and you better win right there somehow despite spending $10 on defense per turn, or else you'll have a very bad surprise when you run out of walls (which will happen in 5 turns tops).

PS: in case my somewhat argumentative tone would hide it, I really appreciate your pieces of wisdom!

I have a lot of trouble using Cauterizers effectively myself too; I'm describing mostly how I see better players use them. re: Hellhounds being tough because you can't afford to spend the tech on them, I feel like you often get a turn to breathe after building the first Wall, and don't need a second right away. Hellhound can make this effect snowball, by giving you an Engineer and increasing your own attack quickly. Then you'll need to defend a little bit less next turn, because of the Engineer, and can maybe sneak out another Hellhound, et cetera. And I think being able to build two Walls per turn is pretty valuable, as long as you don't have to actually do it right away, because in the endgame you'll actually want to do so. Maybe I'm wrong, though: the $5 for a second Blastforge just to get more efficient Tarsiers might not be worth it early on in most games.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #190 on: December 22, 2014, 08:43:25 pm »
0

Rabid's hint was actually to start differently - I'm impressed you managed to do it that way, I couldn't stop him from building eviscerator that way.
Yeah I haven't been able to recreate what I did. I might have started a bit different, but not by much. Still went heavy Shadowfangs at the start or something, but transitioned to walls somehow.

I ended up finding solution online afterwards. It actually had a very different start. like, Animus opening into Tarsiers.
Interesting, Rabid's hint was to open animus, but I did not get tarsiers - just rhino and shadowfang
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #191 on: December 22, 2014, 08:44:42 pm »
0

Rabid's hint was actually to start differently - I'm impressed you managed to do it that way, I couldn't stop him from building eviscerator that way.
Yeah I haven't been able to recreate what I did. I might have started a bit different, but not by much. Still went heavy Shadowfangs at the start or something, but transitioned to walls somehow.

I ended up finding solution online afterwards. It actually had a very different start. like, Animus opening into Tarsiers.
Okay, I beat it again with same strategy, and wrote down the log of the first 12 or so turns. It actually was a slightly different opening then what you described first.

Instead of DD/DD/DAA/Fang+Rhino, I used DD/AD/A+Rhino/Fang/Rhino+Fang. I follow up with Fang/Blastforge+Eng/Wall, and I keep the wall alive for the rest of the fight.

Edit: Oh and Rhino's are always clicked early on clicked whenever they'd destroy an additional wall, the ones alive before Turn 12 at least. Even if the extra attack just destroys a light wall, you need as few walls standing as possible to have max breach on the critical turn right before Eviscerator would pop up.

Edit 2: Fixed error/inaccuracy in the edit spoiler.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 09:34:33 pm by markusin »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #192 on: December 22, 2014, 09:11:39 pm »
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I couldn't get your strategy to work markusin.  I never had the time to buy blastforge.  But I managed to stabilize at 5 drones, buying a rhino a turn, doing 10 damage and slowly destroying Vel'kar's forces.  Never bought anything except drones, fangs (4), and rhinos

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #193 on: December 22, 2014, 09:52:09 pm »
0

I couldn't get your strategy to work markusin.  I never had the time to buy blastforge.  But I managed to stabilize at 5 drones, buying a rhino a turn, doing 10 damage and slowly destroying Vel'kar's forces.  Never bought anything except drones, fangs (4), and rhinos
Okay, so I had bought the blastforge on turn 7 , and with 6 drones. I tried it again and it turns out not to be optimal. You can just buy a Shadowfang on turn 7 instead and defend with a single depleted Rhino. So, you'd be buying blastforge instead of a Shadowfang, but buying the Shadowfang lets you win faster. I just beat it in 15 turns instead of over 20 with the blastforge. At some point you can buy an engineer to produce a 7th drone and build Shadowfang every turn.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #194 on: December 23, 2014, 09:47:37 pm »
0

So I beat the hard boss, and I think I used a different strategy than has been mentioned.

I used vivid drones to get to 12$/turn and 2 animusses so I could buy Rhino/Shadowfang every turn. I've now repeated it three times in 15 turns, so I think it's pretty robust.

1st 3 turns:E/D,V/A,V/A and then Fang/Rhino from there on out. Kill shards just to keep it under 6. There's always one turn where I can't quite defend and lose a fang. I think if the AI took out a vivid drone it would actually be worse, since I'd have to switch to rhino/rhino or get rhino/engi/engi and then build back drones or something. Bad news
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GeoLib

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #195 on: December 24, 2014, 02:32:15 am »
0

Ok, could someone point me in the right direction for the advanced defense tactics 5 puzzle? Here are my thoughts so far:

First general premises I'm working with:
1. Other than your big absorber, everything else can just be treated as some number of health to be burned through
2. Therefore, for every defense, I want to use units to get the attack down to 4 and then absorb on a matrix
3. When just losing a unit, it is always better to lose one big unit than two smaller units whose health add up to the same (this does not include the big absorber). So losing a wall is better than losing forcefield/engi


So if one of those is incorrect, that's probably the issue.

For this puzzle in particular:
I just don't see how to do it. I've tried various combinations of defenses. Tried popping or not popping the gauss charges before he can use them. Tried going after some number of venge cannons before finishing of the gauss. I even built a partial decision tree of options that all seem to end in my losing.


Help! What am I missing.


On another note:
Also, I've now gotten to the point that I can beat the 7s master AI with 60s time control, so I'm interested in playing some humans now. If f.ds people want to add me, I'm GeoLib. Would love to play matches against people I know first.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 05:20:16 am by GeoLib »
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Titandrake

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #196 on: December 24, 2014, 05:00:45 am »
0

I started recently, name is Titandrake

I did all the campaign puzzles except for the hard boss, I haven't tried anything else yet. For the defense puzzles in particular, I feel like I got through them by guess-and-checking a lot of it, rather than actually learning how to defend optimally. Ah well...
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #197 on: December 24, 2014, 05:05:55 am »
+1

I started recently, name is Titandrake

I did all the campaign puzzles except for the hard boss, I haven't tried anything else yet. For the defense puzzles in particular, I feel like I got through them by guess-and-checking a lot of it, rather than actually learning how to defend optimally. Ah well...

I haven't done the campaign.  "Practical" defense is normally pretty easy: just absorb as much damage as you can.  You're unlikely to get into any complicated endgames where defence is tricky for a long time—most games are decided by a decisive and unavoidable breach at some point that kills a bunch of Tarsiers or something.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #198 on: December 24, 2014, 06:57:16 am »
+2

How can I beat Scorchilla games? It looks like whoever gets 2 of them first just basically wins the game because there rarely is a way to absorb 6, and somehow it's always my opponent.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #199 on: December 24, 2014, 08:13:35 am »
0

How can I beat Scorchilla games? It looks like whoever gets 2 of them first just basically wins the game because there rarely is a way to absorb 6, and somehow it's always my opponent.

I'm no expert, but 6 attack only kills engineer and wall, if you have 2 walls. And then you have 2 turns off before they hit again (for 9 probably).
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #200 on: December 24, 2014, 08:15:51 am »
+1

How can I beat Scorchilla games? It looks like whoever gets 2 of them first just basically wins the game because there rarely is a way to absorb 6, and somehow it's always my opponent.

I'm no expert, but 6 attack only kills engineer and wall, if you have 2 walls. And then you have 2 turns off before they hit again (for 9 probably).
Yeah, and I need those 2 Walls while my opponent doesn't need any defenses and can build more Scorchillas because I was busy building Walls instead of Scorchillas.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 08:18:14 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #201 on: December 24, 2014, 08:27:50 am »
+2

Well, surely you built something while he was building scorchzillas. :p
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #202 on: December 24, 2014, 09:31:09 am »
+1

Ok, could someone point me in the right direction for the advanced defense tactics 5 puzzle? Here are my thoughts so far:

First general premises I'm working with:
1. Other than your big absorber, everything else can just be treated as some number of health to be burned through
2. Therefore, for every defense, I want to use units to get the attack down to 4 and then absorb on a matrix
3. When just losing a unit, it is always better to lose one big unit than two smaller units whose health add up to the same (this does not include the big absorber). So losing a wall is better than losing forcefield/engi


So if one of those is incorrect, that's probably the issue.

Not quite true. The future value of EE can occasionally be greater than W.
If you are attacked for 3 then 3 over two turns, WW is a fail, WEE is OK
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #203 on: December 24, 2014, 04:18:16 pm »
0

Ok, could someone point me in the right direction for the advanced defense tactics 5 puzzle? Here are my thoughts so far:

First general premises I'm working with:
1. Other than your big absorber, everything else can just be treated as some number of health to be burned through
2. Therefore, for every defense, I want to use units to get the attack down to 4 and then absorb on a matrix
3. When just losing a unit, it is always better to lose one big unit than two smaller units whose health add up to the same (this does not include the big absorber). So losing a wall is better than losing forcefield/engi


So if one of those is incorrect, that's probably the issue.

Not quite true. The future value of EE can occasionally be greater than W.
If you are attacked for 3 then 3 over two turns, WW is a fail, WEE is OK


I don't think that was one of my assumptions, but thanks for the hint!
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #204 on: December 24, 2014, 04:23:05 pm »
0

For this puzzle in particular:
I just don't see how to do it. I've tried various combinations of defenses. Tried popping or not popping the gauss charges before he can use them. Tried going after some number of venge cannons before finishing of the gauss. I even built a partial decision tree of options that all seem to end in my losing.


You absolutely must absorb the maximum amount of damage each turn to win. As for the Gauss Charges, you should leave them. In the final solution you should just be able to get everything under control in time, in that the math accounts for you breaching attackers the turn before you wouldn't have been able to hold on.

PPE: As for Rabid's point, if EE can be better than W later, then EEE can also be better than W later, and so can Forcefield + Eng since both of those are strictly better than EE

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #205 on: December 24, 2014, 04:28:21 pm »
0

For this puzzle in particular:
I just don't see how to do it. I've tried various combinations of defenses. Tried popping or not popping the gauss charges before he can use them. Tried going after some number of venge cannons before finishing of the gauss. I even built a partial decision tree of options that all seem to end in my losing.


You absolutely must absorb the maximum amount of damage each turn to win. As for the Gauss Charges, you should leave them. In the final solution you should just be able to get everything under control in time, in that the math accounts for you breaching attackers the turn before you wouldn't have been able to hold on.

PPE: As for Rabid's point, if EE can be better than W later, then EEE can also be better than W later, and so can Forcefield + Eng since both of those are strictly better than EE

Thanks!

The second point is what I was trying to say in my general premise 3

Edit: Got it!
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 04:30:43 pm by GeoLib »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #206 on: December 24, 2014, 04:29:28 pm »
0

For this puzzle in particular:
I just don't see how to do it. I've tried various combinations of defenses. Tried popping or not popping the gauss charges before he can use them. Tried going after some number of venge cannons before finishing of the gauss. I even built a partial decision tree of options that all seem to end in my losing.


You absolutely must absorb the maximum amount of damage each turn to win. As for the Gauss Charges, you should leave them. In the final solution you should just be able to get everything under control in time, in that the math accounts for you breaching attackers the turn before you wouldn't have been able to hold on.

PPE: As for Rabid's point, if EE can be better than W later, then EEE can also be better than W later, and so can Forcefield + Eng since both of those are strictly better than EE
Gauss charges? Isn't that defense puzzle 6?
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #207 on: December 24, 2014, 04:32:02 pm »
0

For this puzzle in particular:
I just don't see how to do it. I've tried various combinations of defenses. Tried popping or not popping the gauss charges before he can use them. Tried going after some number of venge cannons before finishing of the gauss. I even built a partial decision tree of options that all seem to end in my losing.


You absolutely must absorb the maximum amount of damage each turn to win. As for the Gauss Charges, you should leave them. In the final solution you should just be able to get everything under control in time, in that the math accounts for you breaching attackers the turn before you wouldn't have been able to hold on.

PPE: As for Rabid's point, if EE can be better than W later, then EEE can also be better than W later, and so can Forcefield + Eng since both of those are strictly better than EE
Gauss charges? Isn't that defense puzzle 6?

It's both. I actually found 6 much easier. I got that one first try. The critical hint was to leave the gauss charges. I'd tried it before but obviously not hard enough before concluding it wasn't as good.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #208 on: December 24, 2014, 04:38:25 pm »
0

For this puzzle in particular:
I just don't see how to do it. I've tried various combinations of defenses. Tried popping or not popping the gauss charges before he can use them. Tried going after some number of venge cannons before finishing of the gauss. I even built a partial decision tree of options that all seem to end in my losing.


You absolutely must absorb the maximum amount of damage each turn to win. As for the Gauss Charges, you should leave them. In the final solution you should just be able to get everything under control in time, in that the math accounts for you breaching attackers the turn before you wouldn't have been able to hold on.

PPE: As for Rabid's point, if EE can be better than W later, then EEE can also be better than W later, and so can Forcefield + Eng since both of those are strictly better than EE
Gauss charges? Isn't that defense puzzle 6?

It's both. I actually found 6 much easier. I got that one first try. The critical hint was to leave the gauss charges. I'd tried it before but obviously not hard enough before concluding it wasn't as good.
Yeah the puzzles were set up in a way that the key defending concept in one puzzle doesn't necessarily work in the later ones. Like, in puzzle 6 you kill some of the gauss charges to absorb the incoming damage with the best efficiency.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #209 on: December 24, 2014, 06:31:31 pm »
0

Stock up on defense between the big hits. Don't wait until the turn before.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #210 on: December 24, 2014, 08:03:06 pm »
0

So I beat the hard boss, and I think I used a different strategy than has been mentioned.

I used vivid drones to get to 12$/turn and 2 animusses so I could buy Rhino/Shadowfang every turn. I've now repeated it three times in 15 turns, so I think it's pretty robust.

1st 3 turns:E/D,V/A,V/A and then Fang/Rhino from there on out. Kill shards just to keep it under 6. There's always one turn where I can't quite defend and lose a fang. I think if the AI took out a vivid drone it would actually be worse, since I'd have to switch to rhino/rhino or get rhino/engi/engi and then build back drones or something. Bad news

Ok, so I improved it to win in 14 turns. Buy R/R/E instead of S/R on the turn where I would otherwise lose a fang (because obviously that's better) and then target things based on how much health they produce per turn (while still keeping damage potential down). So hit the endo and exostructures sooner. Get the barrier forges before the gunbot forges since both produce 1 health/turn but the former have less health.

Has anyone got a faster solution?
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #211 on: December 25, 2014, 11:00:05 am »
+1

How can I beat Scorchilla games? It looks like whoever gets 2 of them first just basically wins the game because there rarely is a way to absorb 6, and somehow it's always my opponent.

If you are player 2 (black), then you are the player doing the scorchilla rush.

If you are player 1 (white), then you are in for a rough time. I don't know if it is possible to beat a scorchilla rush with the base units, so you have to look into the advanced units for a way out of this.

Things to remember are that the scorchilla rush is trying to breach you hard and early. So either you use cheap high health units, or you follow a strategy that is breach-resistant (i.e., avoid tarsiers). You don't need prompt units for defense, because you know exactly when your opponent is going to attack; just build your defenses one turn earlier, non-prompt units are usually more cost efficient. High absorb is also less important than in a normal game, because your opponent is only attacking one turn out of three (so your total absorb is divided by three).
Another thing to remember is that the scorchilla player is doing a rush. She will probably stay at 12 drones for most of the game. Build some relatively early aggression so that she needs to devote money to defense, and her attack will never increase too much. Scorchillas are dangerous, but they are still quite expensive in the long run, costing 7RG for one attack per turn. Build more efficient attackers and she will fall.

EDIT: if you are looking into ways of defending from the initial 6 attack, an initial idea would be to open T1:DD T2:DD, and if your opponent buys a conduit on her second turn, go T3:DDBlastforge T4:DDSteelsplitter T5:DWallAnimus or T5:DDWallConduit, depending on what is available. If better defenders are available, use your better judgement. This leaves you with a slightly better economic position than your opponent, that you can hopefully transform into a win.

You could also try scaring the second player out of the scorchilla rush by overrushing, but I doubt that is a good idea. T1:DD T2:Conduit T3:Animus T4: Scorchilla*2 is technically possible, but it leaves you with only 8 drones. You can follow this until your opponent abandons the scorchilla rush, and then you switch to something less suicidal.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 06:36:38 pm by pacovf »
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #212 on: December 26, 2014, 02:38:19 am »
+1

Played my first game against a human and won! Sure I misplayed horribly. Time pressure really got to me and I kept overdefending, forgetting that I need to account for the fact that they'll lose some attacker/defenders before their turn.

I went green/red with gauss cannons, gauss fabricator, feral warden, rhino. I ended up buying a blastforge late though because it seemed like I really needed walls. In general, how do you avoid blastforges? It seems like the high absorb on walls is not really replaceable with anything else.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #213 on: December 26, 2014, 07:02:44 am »
+1

Played my first game against a human and won! Sure I misplayed horribly. Time pressure really got to me and I kept overdefending, forgetting that I need to account for the fact that they'll lose some attacker/defenders before their turn.

I went green/red with gauss cannons, gauss fabricator, feral warden, rhino. I ended up buying a blastforge late though because it seemed like I really needed walls. In general, how do you avoid blastforges? It seems like the high absorb on walls is not really replaceable with anything else.

I'm not the best player ever, but I think you can ignore Blastforges when there are very aggressive green and/or red kingdom cards and you're the player who gets them first. Sometimes, your opponent will have to defend against your attacks, and then he doesn't have enough resources to build a lot of attack himself and you can get away with just Rhinos and Engineers and possibly some kingdom cards for defense. It's not very common, but it happens. Also if your opponent is heavily committing to a blue strategy that isn't very aggressive (Deadeye Operative or something like that), it's more likely that ignoring Blastforge will work because then you can almost count on not needing lots of absorb, at least not in the early game.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #214 on: December 26, 2014, 07:23:15 am »
0

My advise concerning bastforge: get it. There are times where you don't, but in most cases you really want to have it. Defending with Rhinos is a losing strategy, you should only do it if it's absolutely necessary.

More importantly though, don't buy Gauss Canons. Gauss Canon is the Scout of Prismata (which also means that there are exceptions, but start with not buying them).

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #215 on: December 26, 2014, 09:25:56 am »
+1

Defending with Rhinos is a losing strategy, you should only do it if it's absolutely necessary.
Not if it means that your opponent is under so much pressure that he has to chump block with Walls more than you have to chump block with Rhinos.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #216 on: December 26, 2014, 12:52:54 pm »
+2

Tier VI!
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #217 on: December 26, 2014, 01:03:12 pm »
+2

My advise concerning bastforge: get it. There are times where you don't, but in most cases you really want to have it. Defending with Rhinos is a losing strategy, you should only do it if it's absolutely necessary.

More importantly though, don't buy Gauss Canons. Gauss Canon is the Scout of Prismata (which also means that there are exceptions, but start with not buying them).
To expand a bit on the Gauss Cannon statement, getting lots of Gauss Cannons is not really a viable strategy in itself. They are just too expensive, and unlike Steelsplitters they can't function as a non-prompt defender that puts pressure or anything. In theory they could be part of some counterbuilds, but the randomized "kingdom" makes those situations unlikely. This is my understanding of the cannons.

They can be good if you have the spare resources for them and you want to increase the power of your big burst next turn, say with Zemora Voidbringer or just lots of Gauss Charges or Frostbites.

If you want to slowly build up a solid attack army, Tarsiers are the way to go, but you'll probably need blue tech to defend them.

Now Forcefields, those are useful and are a reason to want a spare Conduit at some point.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #218 on: December 26, 2014, 02:42:03 pm »
0

I kinda dislike that Gauss cannon is so weak.  Green is more dependent on something being provided by the +5 or +8 than any other color
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #219 on: December 26, 2014, 02:49:53 pm »
0

I kinda dislike that Gauss cannon is so weak.  Green is more dependent on something being provided by the +5 or +8 than any other color

I think it's fine, considering how strong the green resource is (the building is the cheapest and the resource works like coin tokens).
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #220 on: December 26, 2014, 02:55:27 pm »
0

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #221 on: December 26, 2014, 04:19:19 pm »
0

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that green is underpowered? That's not really true. The base units are certainly less useful than the blue and red ones, but there are plenty of strong green units that aren't in the base set.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #222 on: December 26, 2014, 04:53:21 pm »
0

My advise concerning bastforge: get it. There are times where you don't, but in most cases you really want to have it. Defending with Rhinos is a losing strategy, you should only do it if it's absolutely necessary.

More importantly though, don't buy Gauss Canons. Gauss Canon is the Scout of Prismata (which also means that there are exceptions, but start with not buying them).

Yeah, that's kind of the conclusion I've been coming to. It just seemed like you should be able to skip it sometimes.

Re: Gauss Canons. I usually skip them entirely because they're expensive and it seems like getting breached just sucks regardless of how much health they have. I went for them this set because there was gauss fabricator and I decided to try out these "breach resistant" builds I'd heard about and skip Blastforge. I'm not too impressed. It does seem like Gauss Canon is just way worse than steelsplitter and rhino.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #223 on: December 26, 2014, 08:30:30 pm »
0

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that green is underpowered? That's not really true. The base units are certainly less useful than the blue and red ones, but there are plenty of strong green units that aren't in the base set.

Green isn't underpowered, it's just more kingdom reliant than the other two.  I think it'd make the game more skill intensive if all three colors had similar amounts of kingdom dependency.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #224 on: December 26, 2014, 08:49:12 pm »
0

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that green is underpowered? That's not really true. The base units are certainly less useful than the blue and red ones, but there are plenty of strong green units that aren't in the base set.

Green isn't underpowered, it's just more kingdom reliant than the other two.  I think it'd make the game more skill intensive if all three colors had similar amounts of kingdom dependency.

I think I agree here. I'll probably wait until I've played some more and am more confident in my skill, but it might make sense to suggest buffing Gauss Cannon in the "balancing suggestion" place. Would it be overpowered if it could block? Probably. Cheaper? I actually just think making Iso Kronus the green base unit would work... It's basically a cheaper, better Gauss Cannon already.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #225 on: December 26, 2014, 09:37:08 pm »
0

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that green is underpowered? That's not really true. The base units are certainly less useful than the blue and red ones, but there are plenty of strong green units that aren't in the base set.

Green isn't underpowered, it's just more kingdom reliant than the other two.  I think it'd make the game more skill intensive if all three colors had similar amounts of kingdom dependency.

I think I agree here. I'll probably wait until I've played some more and am more confident in my skill, but it might make sense to suggest buffing Gauss Cannon in the "balancing suggestion" place. Would it be overpowered if it could block? Probably. Cheaper? I actually just think making Iso Kronus the green base unit would work... It's basically a cheaper, better Gauss Cannon already.
I feel like Iso Cronus is already too close to Tarsier though.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #226 on: December 27, 2014, 08:16:17 am »
+2

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that green is underpowered? That's not really true. The base units are certainly less useful than the blue and red ones, but there are plenty of strong green units that aren't in the base set.

Green isn't underpowered, it's just more kingdom reliant than the other two.  I think it'd make the game more skill intensive if all three colors had similar amounts of kingdom dependency.

I think I agree here. I'll probably wait until I've played some more and am more confident in my skill, but it might make sense to suggest buffing Gauss Cannon in the "balancing suggestion" place. Would it be overpowered if it could block? Probably. Cheaper? I actually just think making Iso Kronus the green base unit would work... It's basically a cheaper, better Gauss Cannon already.

well, Gauss Canon could afford to be 1$ cheaper without breaking the game (which is something that's absolutely not true of most cheap units). I'm not sure that Gauss Canon hurts the game as is though. It seems kind of neat that Tarsier is the only okay damage source in the base set.

I don't like making Kronos a base unit, because Kronos is really, really strong. It shouldn't be available all the time.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #227 on: December 27, 2014, 08:39:24 am »
+8

Gauss Cannon could be just renamed "Goko Kronus" — more expensive and still worse than Iso Kronus #isowasbetter #gokoisworse
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #228 on: December 27, 2014, 02:29:41 pm »
0

Just solved the hard boss puzzle, without looking at any spoilers. Looking at them now, I think I got a new solution

get shadowfang as fast as humanly possible, D/AA/S/S, then defend with rhinos. no blue or engineers, and only buy one drone the entire game

It wasn't very fast though, but it works

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #229 on: December 27, 2014, 04:26:41 pm »
0

It's 1 gold cheaper than blastforge and 1 gold more expensive than animus compared to how much juice it pumps out. 

Storing isn't that useful.  It's cool but doesn't make up for it at all.

I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that green is underpowered? That's not really true. The base units are certainly less useful than the blue and red ones, but there are plenty of strong green units that aren't in the base set.

Green isn't underpowered, it's just more kingdom reliant than the other two.  I think it'd make the game more skill intensive if all three colors had similar amounts of kingdom dependency.

I think I agree here. I'll probably wait until I've played some more and am more confident in my skill, but it might make sense to suggest buffing Gauss Cannon in the "balancing suggestion" place. Would it be overpowered if it could block? Probably. Cheaper? I actually just think making Iso Kronus the green base unit would work... It's basically a cheaper, better Gauss Cannon already.

well, Gauss Canon could afford to be 1$ cheaper without breaking the game (which is something that's absolutely not true of most cheap units). I'm not sure that Gauss Canon hurts the game as is though. It seems kind of neat that Tarsier is the only okay damage source in the base set.

I don't like making Kronos a base unit, because Kronos is really, really strong. It shouldn't be available all the time.
I see a little of the appeal to Tarsier being that way.  Maybe they could add a green base unit that adds some value to green that's not primarily an attacker
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #230 on: December 28, 2014, 08:51:30 am »
0

Is there ever any reason to not sync your Iso Kronuses? I just lost against someone who didn't, and I'm wondering if I lost because of that, or despite that.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #231 on: December 28, 2014, 09:16:01 am »
0

Is there ever any reason to not sync your Iso Kronuses? I just lost against someone who didn't, and I'm wondering if I lost because of that, or despite that.

if you don't sync even a single one, you lose the whole advantage of only attacking every second turn. it's usually an awful idea.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #232 on: December 28, 2014, 11:07:11 am »
+3

If you have enough attack from non-iso sources that they are getting their maximum absorb every turn anyway, I don't see any reason to synch them, so building some on off turns is good because they come into play a turn earlier. But usually you should avoid getting attack from other sources.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #233 on: January 02, 2015, 05:48:03 pm »
0

Is it just me or is there some pretty serious first player advantage going on?  Seems worse than chess.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #234 on: January 02, 2015, 05:56:49 pm »
0

Is it just me or is there some pretty serious first player advantage going on?  Seems worse than chess.

I think it definitely makes a difference which player you are, but which player has the advantage depends on the units available (the Scorchilla rush is only available to P2, for example).  The last statistics I saw had P2 with a slight advantage overall (something like 53% win rate).
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #235 on: January 02, 2015, 06:44:16 pm »
0

Is it just me or is there some pretty serious first player advantage going on?  Seems worse than chess.

It's just you. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the extra Drone p2 gets is a pretty strong compensation for going second. Currently p2 wins 52% of all games, according to the developers.
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #236 on: January 02, 2015, 07:36:45 pm »
+1

Yeah, there is player advantage. Generally, green openings are good for P2, blue openings are good for P1. Red depends. Vivid drone is super good for P2. Wild drone is pretty good for P2. The red unit that makes green stuff is very good for P2. Odin is extremely good for P1 (if you want him right away).

Overall, my feeling says that P2 is a fair bit better on average (which seems to be backed up by stats, although I hadn't heard of them before).

Somewhat unrelated, I think the "first" and "second" terms are confusing. You could just as well make the first player have second turn but let him start with 8 drones. It's not that one goes first and the other one second, it's just that you play... offset?

Generally, you should have the better position at the board whenever you finished a turn, and the worse position whenever you start a turn. P1, you start with 6 vs 7 drones, you end with 8 vs 7. The farther the game goes, the bigger this gap gets. If, say, your opponent has an even position with you at the end of his turn, that means you're pretty far ahead.

By the way, Doomed Drone makes everything better. If I could decide, I'd make it a base unit.

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #237 on: January 02, 2015, 08:46:49 pm »
0

Yeah, there is player advantage. Generally, green openings are good for P2, blue openings are good for P1. Red depends. Vivid drone is super good for P2. Wild drone is pretty good for P2. The red unit that makes green stuff is very good for P2. Odin is extremely good for P1 (if you want him right away).

Overall, my feeling says that P2 is a fair bit better on average (which seems to be backed up by stats, although I hadn't heard of them before).

Somewhat unrelated, I think the "first" and "second" terms are confusing. You could just as well make the first player have second turn but let him start with 8 drones. It's not that one goes first and the other one second, it's just that you play... offset?

Generally, you should have the better position at the board whenever you finished a turn, and the worse position whenever you start a turn. P1, you start with 6 vs 7 drones, you end with 8 vs 7. The farther the game goes, the bigger this gap gets. If, say, your opponent has an even position with you at the end of his turn, that means you're pretty far ahead.

By the way, Doomed Drone makes everything better. If I could decide, I'd make it a base unit.
But the player with 6 drones has the option to have an extra drone with 8 drones and 10 drones, but not 7 and 9.  I haven't played enough to know specific build orders, but I imagine turn order has subtle differences depending on the specific build order. You mentioned Scorchilla rush as viable for P2 for example.

Doomed Drone sounds good on paper, but again I haven't played enough to know what kind of builds benefit the most from the extra early income (and the extra defender since you can sack doomed drone instead of say an engineer on its last turn).
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #238 on: January 02, 2015, 09:04:02 pm »
+1

Doomed Drone is really skill intensive
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Re: Prismata
« Reply #239 on: January 02, 2015, 09:11:02 pm »
+1

But the player with 6 drones has the option to have an extra drone with 8 drones and 10 drones, but not 7 and 9
I... don't understand what you mean.

Doomed Drone sounds good on paper, but again I haven't played enough to know what kind of builds benefit the most from the extra early income (and the extra defender since you can sack doomed drone instead of say an engineer on its last turn).
I think the blocking is pretty unrelated. What I like about it is just that it makes the unfair scenarios less unfair. For example, if you want to open blue as P2 without it, you either have to wait until turn 3, or just buy drone/bastforge on T2 with 2$ left, which is horrible. With doomed drone, you can build drone/DD/blastforge, which is still not great because doomed drone is far inferior to the normal drone as a source of income, but it's still better. Seems like a really elegant way to reduce this problem.

And it's a cool unit anyway.

popsofctown

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Re: Prismata
« Reply #240 on: January 02, 2015, 09:11:54 pm »
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I'm not sure a 52% winrate means that everything is ok.  I feel like specific units swing strong p1 or p2 advantage so that games are a little bit deterministic.  It'd be like renaming white black and renaming black to white in half your games to show that chess has no p1 issue at all.
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Also you probably are an expert if you buy two bureaucrats early.

markusin

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