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Author Topic: How do you make an effect un-thronable?  (Read 9284 times)

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silverspawn

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How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« on: November 27, 2014, 05:29:47 am »
0

Example: I want to make Ruined Village unthronable (so that, if you play TR or KC on it, you still just get +1 Action). How do you do that?

original:
Quote
+1 Action

clean but tedious version:
Quote
Set this aside. If you do, +1 Action. At the start of Clean-up this turn, discard it.

potentially working but confusing version:
Quote
When you put this into play, +1 Action

version that is restricted to some effects
Quote
While this is in play, you have one more Action

clean version that mostly works but has some unsolvable problems
Quote
If this is the first time you play this card this turn, +1 Action

good version:
---
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 06:41:59 am by silverspawn »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2014, 07:14:32 am »
+5

"If this is the first time you played this this turn..."?

But really, TR and KC are awesome, so everything should be thronable.
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Asper

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2014, 09:09:45 am »
0

"If this is the first time you played this this turn..."?

But really, TR and KC are awesome, so everything should be thronable.

This is good. It builds on the Crossroads wording but talks of the individual card. If you want to be clearer, you could say "this copy of X" or just "this X".
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AJD

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2014, 09:21:18 am »
0

"If this is the first time you played this this turn..."?

But really, TR and KC are awesome, so everything should be thronable.

This is good. It builds on the Crossroads wording but talks of the individual card. If you want to be clearer, you could say "this copy of X" or just "this X".

This could become undeterminable with a bizarre combination of (for example) Procession, Rogue, and Inn, but that edge case is probably not worth worrying about.

Also, why do you want to design a card specifically so it can't be Throned?
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RTT

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2014, 09:23:33 am »
0

I guess he´s desinging a throneroom that cant be throned for 3$  ;)
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silverspawn

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2014, 09:39:19 am »
0

I want it for the card that gets other Action cards back from play back into your hand (here).

Unfortunately, the previously mentioned "if this is the first time you play this" is a bad idea here, because the card takes other Action cards back to your hand. If I do it that way, I need both restrictions.
Quote
If this is the first time you play a Believer this turn, choose an Action card you have in play. If it is not a Believer, put it into your hand
as supposed to
Quote
When you put this into play, choose another Action card you have in play. Put it into your hand

It's not so much that the second version is shorter as it is that it's less confusing.



This could become undeterminable with a bizarre combination of (for example) Procession, Rogue, and Inn, but that edge case is probably not worth worrying about.
that would actually be enough of a reason for me not to do it, but it doesn't matter because the card costs 2$.

Also, why do you want to design a card specifically so it can't be Throned?
Because of the interaction with duration cards. I target a duration, i take it back in my hand, I play it again, I leave Believer outside to remind me of that. Cool, no tracking problems. I throne a Believer, I take two durations back in hand, I play both, and I got tracking problems. Unfortunately, TR does not stay out in that situation.

Well that's not the worst thing, if you TR - TR - Duration - Duration, you also have just one TR that reminds you of two effects, and if you procession - procession - duration - duration, you just have one card period that reminds you of four effects. but still, it would be nice to get rid of tracking problems entirely. Also, if it can't be throned, I don't need the "don't target copies of itself" restriction anymore, just "another card", which is less confusing.

So, I need another way to un-throne it. Any ideas?

AJD

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2014, 10:44:34 am »
0

I want it for the card that gets other Action cards back from play back into your hand (here).

Also, why do you want to design a card specifically so it can't be Throned?
Because of the interaction with duration cards. I target a duration, i take it back in my hand, I play it again, I leave Believer outside to remind me of that. Cool, no tracking problems.

I don't think the Duration rules would have you leave Believer in play past the end of the turn no matter what.
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silverspawn

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2014, 11:54:10 am »
0

I want it for the card that gets other Action cards back from play back into your hand (here).

Also, why do you want to design a card specifically so it can't be Throned?
Because of the interaction with duration cards. I target a duration, i take it back in my hand, I play it again, I leave Believer outside to remind me of that. Cool, no tracking problems.

I don't think the Duration rules would have you leave Believer in play past the end of the turn no matter what.

The ruling that convinces me so is this, but it was definitely a surprise for me too. if you think I misinterpret that ruling, that should probably not go in this thread.

AJD

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2014, 12:16:47 pm »
0

I want it for the card that gets other Action cards back from play back into your hand (here).

Also, why do you want to design a card specifically so it can't be Throned?
Because of the interaction with duration cards. I target a duration, i take it back in my hand, I play it again, I leave Believer outside to remind me of that. Cool, no tracking problems.

I don't think the Duration rules would have you leave Believer in play past the end of the turn no matter what.

The ruling that convinces me so is this, but it was definitely a surprise for me too. if you think I misinterpret that ruling, that should probably not go in this thread.

You're not "playing or modifying" the Duration card with Believer. You play the Duration card as normal, and moving it out of play doesn't "modify" it.

That said, the wording of this rule suggests that Golem and Herald should remain in play with Duration cards, and they don't, so perhaps this rule isn't meant to be taken literally.
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liopoil

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2014, 12:26:09 pm »
+2

"While this is in play you have one more action"
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market squire

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2014, 12:50:37 pm »
+1

I don't see a huge issue in throning Believer.
Any other change than what you have suggested would change the effect itself, which could be interesting as well:
You could give it a specified target and use lose track rule, like
Quote
Put the last Action you played this turn that is not a Believer into your hand.
Maybe make it an Activation card?
Quote
+1 Action
When you activate this, put an Action you have in play into your hand.
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silverspawn

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2014, 01:39:01 pm »
0

I want it for the card that gets other Action cards back from play back into your hand (here).

Also, why do you want to design a card specifically so it can't be Throned?
Because of the interaction with duration cards. I target a duration, i take it back in my hand, I play it again, I leave Believer outside to remind me of that. Cool, no tracking problems.

I don't think the Duration rules would have you leave Believer in play past the end of the turn no matter what.

The ruling that convinces me so is this, but it was definitely a surprise for me too. if you think I misinterpret that ruling, that should probably not go in this thread.

You're not "playing or modifying" the Duration card with Believer. You play the Duration card as normal, and moving it out of play doesn't "modify" it.

That said, the wording of this rule suggests that Golem and Herald should remain in play with Duration cards, and they don't, so perhaps this rule isn't meant to be taken literally.

I'd say putting the card into your hand is plenty modifying. The point of this rule is to have stuff out that you need to remember effects. You don't need Herald to remember things, but you do need Believer. Plus I can just define the interaction for this expansion, and that's the "official" ruling. The existing mechanics are not precise enough for that not to work. But again, wrong thread.

"While this is in play you have one more action"

pretty sure that wording doesn't work. one more than what? but even if that's defined, you'd always have actions left, unless it's "one more than you'd usually have" which is pretty terrible.

I don't see a huge issue in throning Believer.
Any other change than what you have suggested would change the effect itself, which could be interesting as well:
You could give it a specified target and use lose track rule, like
Quote
Put the last Action you played this turn that is not a Believer into your hand.
Maybe make it an Activation card?
Quote
+1 Action
When you activate this, put an Action you have in play into your hand.

ahm, no. the card has plenty of testing and is fine as is, I have no reason to fundamentally change it. And I obv. don't make it an activation card, because Activation cards are not part of the expansion. Introducing a new mechanic needs to have a huge payoff in order to be worth it.

liopoil

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2014, 01:45:22 pm »
0

"While this is in play you have one more action"

pretty sure that wording doesn't work. one more than what? but even if that's defined, you'd always have actions left, unless it's "one more than you'd usually have" which is pretty terrible.
One more action that you would otherwise have. If you would otherwise have 0, you have 1. If you would otherwise have -1, you have 0. You do need to let actions theoretically go negative. If you have two in play, they simply stack.
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silverspawn

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2014, 01:48:18 pm »
+1

"While this is in play you have one more action"

pretty sure that wording doesn't work. one more than what? but even if that's defined, you'd always have actions left, unless it's "one more than you'd usually have" which is pretty terrible.
One more action that you would otherwise have. If you would otherwise have 0, you have 1. If you would otherwise have -1, you have 0. You do need to let actions theoretically go negative. If you have two in play, they simply stack.

okay, theoretically, but that's confusing, plus it only works for Actions. Ruined village was just an example, it's more of a general question.

I still kind of like "when you put this into play."

liopoil

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2014, 02:00:36 pm »
+1

"While this is in play you have one more action"

pretty sure that wording doesn't work. one more than what? but even if that's defined, you'd always have actions left, unless it's "one more than you'd usually have" which is pretty terrible.
One more action that you would otherwise have. If you would otherwise have 0, you have 1. If you would otherwise have -1, you have 0. You do need to let actions theoretically go negative. If you have two in play, they simply stack.

okay, theoretically, but that's confusing, plus it only works for Actions. Ruined village was just an example, it's more of a general question.

I still kind of like "when you put this into play."
It's exactly the same thing that highways, goons, and merchant guild use. I'm sure it can be applied to anything.
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silverspawn

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2014, 02:25:27 pm »
0

It's exactly the same thing that highways, goons, and merchant guild use. I'm sure it can be applied to anything.

O...kay then how do you use that for +cards?

Showdown35

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2014, 02:35:47 pm »
+1

It's exactly the same thing that highways, goons, and merchant guild use. I'm sure it can be applied to anything.

I'd have to disagree with that. All three of those cards apply a continuous effect (two of them being triggered effects that will trigger whenever their condition is met). Silverspawn is trying to apply the unthronability to a card that has a single, non constant effect.  The "while this is in play" mechanic doesn't work for a single instruction that is not continuous (like drawing a card). How could you apply it to something as simple as drawing a card?
Quote
While this is in play, draw a card.
???

So, the question remains. How do you stop a card from producing it's effect when you play it a second time with Throne Room, but still have it produce it's effect if you play a second copy of it?

Keep it simple, use this card:

Quote
Ruined Library
Action - $0
+1 Card

I think it will be easier to figure out with this rather than Ruined Village, just because messing with Actions is more complicated than just drawing a card.

Edit: I was writing this before that last comment by silverspawn!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 02:37:08 pm by Showdown35 »
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liopoil

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2014, 03:19:56 pm »
+1

It's exactly the same thing that highways, goons, and merchant guild use. I'm sure it can be applied to anything.

O...kay then how do you use that for +cards?
It's exactly the same thing that highways, goons, and merchant guild use. I'm sure it can be applied to anything.

I'd have to disagree with that. All three of those cards apply a continuous effect. The "while this is in play" mechanic doesn't work for a single instruction that is not continuous (like drawing a card). How could you apply it to something as simple as drawing a card?
Quote
While this is in play, draw a card.
???
...okay good point
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Asper

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2014, 03:43:48 pm »
+1

"When you put this in play" is a good and sufficient wording.

I don't see why you would want to make the card un-thronable, though. The only reason you have is a rather obscure interaction that doesn't even break the rules or introduce new problems to Dominion. For example, that allready happens when you procession a Procession processioning Durations - and there you only need Procession+Duration on the board. Here you need Believer+Duration+TR variant.

If you really want to avoid the duration/TR "problem", maybe consider to just exclude "fresh" durations:

Quote
Believer
Types: Action
Cost: 2$
When you buy this or play it, choose an Action card you have in play and that is allready resolved. If it is not a Believer, put it into your hand or on top of your deck, your choice.

Or, if you don't mind it targeting other copies of Believer:

Quote
Believer
Types: Action
Cost: 2$
When you buy this or play it, choose an Action card you have in play and that is allready resolved. Put it into your hand or on top of your deck, your choice.

The second has the advantage that players wondering what the "allready resolved" is for don't need to know durations to get an answer. The card itself is not "allready resolved" when you play it.

Generally, i'm more in favour of just keeping Believer as is, though.
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silverspawn

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2014, 04:14:11 pm »
0

the reason why you shouldn't be able to target other believers is that a KC - KC - Believer - Woodcutter combination instantly produces infinite coins and buys. If the card is unthronable, that combination doesn't work anymore, so I don't need this restriction either. That's another reason for making it unthronable.

When you buy this or play it, choose an Action card you have in play and that is allready resolved. If it is not a Believer, put it into your hand or on top of your deck, your choice.
Changing the wording in a way like this is what I originally tried, but I decided against it. "that is already resolved" is one of the better wordings (I also considered various variations of "that would be discarded in the next Clean-up phase") but it's still not good. For example, highway doesn't really resolve entirely until the buy phase. I've more or less given up on finding a wording that disallows you to take durations in hand.

"When you put this in play" is a good and sufficient wording.

I don't see why you would want to make the card un-thronable, though.
I'm not quite sure if I made it clear that "when you put this into play" is supposed to make it unthronable? because you only put the physical card into play once, even if you play it twice. I think.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 04:15:15 pm by silverspawn »
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jaketheyak

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2014, 05:16:58 pm »
0

I've more or less given up on finding a wording that disallows you to take durations in hand.

I don't understand why it's difficult to find a wording for that.
"Duration" is a specific card type and there are plenty of existing cards that reference specific card types.
Jack of All Trades in particular has the wording "You may trash a card from your hand that is not a Treasure".

What's wrong with the wording "You may take in hand any card currently in play that is not a Duration"?

I'm not quite sure if I made it clear that "when you put this into play" is supposed to make it unthronable? because you only put the physical card into play once, even if you play it twice. I think.

It hurts my brain to think about whether or not this actually works to make it unthronable.
So, whether or not it technically does the job it's generally a bad idea including wording on a card that is guaranteed to confuse players.

I feel like "The first time you play this copy of Believer..." is more straightforward, but even then I kind of feel like the goal of making a card unthroneable is not really a good one.
I think it's better to identify the problem you are trying to eliminate and write the card around that.

Am I right in thinking the problem that it becomes a self-sustaining loop?
Why don't you just make it that it can't pick up copies of itself?

"You may take in hand any card currently in play that is not a Duration or a Believer".
Job done.

Throning it makes it more powerful, sure, but that's kind of what throning does.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 05:24:34 pm by jaketheyak »
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Asper

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2014, 07:01:05 pm »
0

the reason why you shouldn't be able to target other believers is that a KC - KC - Believer - Woodcutter combination instantly produces infinite coins and buys. If the card is unthronable, that combination doesn't work anymore, so I don't need this restriction either. That's another reason for making it unthronable.

Hmm, that is indeed an ugly thing to have.

"When you put this in play" is a good and sufficient wording.
I don't see why you would want to make the card un-thronable, though.
I'm not quite sure if I made it clear that "when you put this into play" is supposed to make it unthronable? because you only put the physical card into play once, even if you play it twice. I think.

I'm as sure as it gets that the wording works. Did i seem to disagree? Considering the KC-thing, it's probably the best way to fix the card. The only alternative is to keep the anti-other-Believer thing and prohibit (fresh) Durations.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 07:02:46 pm by Asper »
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enfynet

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2014, 11:49:56 pm »
0

What if you discard it instead of setting it aside?

"Discard this, if you do..."

Has the same feeling as trash activation, with a weird twist that may allow you to get it back the same turn.
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market squire

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2014, 03:20:16 am »
0

What if you discard it instead of setting it aside?

"Discard this, if you do..."

Has the same feeling as trash activation, with a weird twist that may allow you to get it back the same turn.
Then, with an empty deck, you could just play any Village infinitely with Believer.

When you buy this or play it, choose an Action card you have in play and that is allready resolved. If it is not a Believer, put it into your hand or on top of your deck, your choice.
Changing the wording in a way like this is what I originally tried, but I decided against it. "that is already resolved" is one of the better wordings (I also considered various variations of "that would be discarded in the next Clean-up phase") but it's still not good. For example, highway doesn't really resolve entirely until the buy phase. I've more or less given up on finding a wording that disallows you to take durations in hand.
It would work, but it is very confusing. Highway's Action does resolve directly when you played it, the problem would be Bridge. For Bridge I'd say, it's a one time thing that effects the whole turn. I.e. Bridge would be better to believer than Highway. Also, you would not be able to put a Scheme into hand then (which also causes less confusion i think).

"When you put this in play" is a good and sufficient wording.

I don't see why you would want to make the card un-thronable, though.
I'm not quite sure if I made it clear that "when you put this into play" is supposed to make it unthronable? because you only put the physical card into play once, even if you play it twice. I think.
This should be the same reasoning as for Throne Room/ Mining Village.
When you put a card from the trash into the trash, you did not really trash it.
When you play a card that is already in play, you did not really put it into play.
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silverspawn

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Re: How do you make an effect un-thronable?
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2014, 06:38:23 am »
0

What's wrong with the wording "You may take in hand any card currently in play that is not a Duration"?
two things

1) you now can't target durations from last turn either. that's one of the coolest uses though, and I don't want to give it up.
2) referencing a card type is no problem, but referencing a card type that is not either in its own expansion or a base treasure/victory/curse card is. No official card does it, none of my current cards does it, and I would like not to do it.

So, whether or not it technically does the job it's generally a bad idea including wording on a card that is guaranteed to confuse players.
agreed. Which is why I'm still searching for another solution

Why don't you just make it that it can't pick up copies of itself?
that's what the current version does (I know it's not what the current image does, sorry about that, but that's uuh a mistake. the current version can't pick up copies of itself). This does prevent the original loop of KC - KC - Believer - Woodcutter, but it does not solve the tracking problems that come from throning a believer and using it on duration cards.

"I'm as sure as it gets that the wording works. Did i seem to disagree? Considering the KC-thing, it's probably the best way to fix the card. The only alternative is to keep the anti-other-Believer thing and prohibit (fresh) Durations.
you didn't, I just wasn't sure.

What if you discard it instead of setting it aside?

"Discard this, if you do..."

Has the same feeling as trash activation, with a weird twist that may allow you to get it back the same turn.
Then, with an empty deck, you could just play any Village infinitely with Believer.
it sounded a like a good solution for a moment. but you're right. and unfortunately, bazaar is also a village, so you have another way to produce infinite coins.
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