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Author Topic: Twisting options  (Read 5163 times)

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market squire

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Twisting options
« on: November 26, 2014, 10:06:11 am »
+3

Hello, I'd like to share some card ideas with you, this time I try to create especially intriguing options.

Small Village (Action) P
+2 Actions
When you play the next Action this turn, if it costs...
$5 or more: Gain a Copper.
$3 to $4: +1 Card.
$2 or less: Play it again.

I want to try out Ironworky effects with Cost ranges.

Flower Seller (Action) $2
+1 Action
Take a coin token.
Spend any number of coin tokens and draw an equal number of cards.
______________________
When you trash this, take 2 Coin tokens.

An older idea from the German forum; it can trade coins for cards which may come in very handy. The on-trash is just for fun. ;)


Church (Action) $6
Trash a card from your hand.
Choose one: +$3 or take 2 Coin tokens.

I wanted a card with an option between flexibility and just more cash. This for $5 would be nice, but I don't like such cards next to Harvest, so i made it a mix of Altar and Trade Route.


Lance Maker (Action) $4
+$2
You may spend an Action.
If you do, each other player gains a Curse.
Otherwise, he gains a Copper.

Inspiration came from the -1 Action thread, but there it got no resonance. I changed it to "otherwise they gain a Copper" because it fits here.

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Jack Rudd

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2014, 11:13:29 pm »
+1

Small Village-Smithy looks kinda powerful as an engine.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2014, 01:43:28 am »
+1

Small Village-Smithy looks kinda powerful as an engine.

Looks way worse than regular Village / Smithy to me... it's exactly the same, except that SV costs $P instead of $3. This means that you can't get as many of them, and you'll be clogging your deck with at least 1 Potion.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2014, 01:49:27 am »
+1

Small Village-Smithy looks kinda powerful as an engine.

It's worse than Village-Smithy.  Small Village doesn't draw a card, so that extra +1 card only lets it match Village.  Since you don't draw the extra card until after playing the Smithy, it can fail where Village-Smithy wouldn't (that is, where Village can draw a Smithy, Small Village would not).  And it does worse if you don't play another action card after Small Village (or if you play another Small Village).

Small Village is interesting, but I'm not sure if it's any good.  $P is an awkward cost and the auto-throne for $2 cards isn't that great with most $2 cards.  The broad concept of "village with cost-based effects" is cool, so maybe other variations on this could be considered.

Flower Seller and Church are probably fine, but not particularly exciting.  I think I've seen multiple variations of both back during the set design contests.  I think they'd fit in fine as parts of larger sets.

Lance Maker is boring to me, and you still need to be careful about Copper junkers.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 01:50:59 am by eHalcyon »
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popsofctown

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2014, 10:48:13 am »
+1

You should make the 5$ or more effect good or at least neutral
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Witherweaver

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2014, 11:21:17 am »
+1

You should make the 5$ or more effect good or at least neutral

Yeah, otherwise you'd rather have Necropolis there.

Small Village + Courtyard or Crossroads is neat, though.
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market squire

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2014, 07:29:38 am »
0

You should make the 5$ or more effect good or at least neutral

So how about


Small Village (Action) P
+2 Actions
When you play the next Action this turn, if it costs...
$5 or more: Gain a Copper, putting it into your hand [or just +$1?].
$3 to $4: +1 Card.
$2 or less: Play it again.

Lance Maker is boring to me, and you still need to be careful about Copper junkers.
Please explain yourself. Do you mean Copper junkers are too strong because the pile is too big?
I think it is quite interesting to have a Witch which works better in Engines than in BM.
Maybe there should be something else than Copper junking? Or just cancel the "otherwise" part?


Lance Maker (Action) $4
+$2
You may spend an Action.
If you do, each other player gains a Curse.

On the other hand, this would be meh in games without Villages.
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silverspawn

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2014, 08:15:19 am »
+1

So how about

Small Village (Action) P
+2 Actions
When you play the next Action this turn, if it costs...
$5 or more: Gain a Copper, putting it into your hand [or just +$1?].
$3 to $4: +1 Card.
$2 or less: Play it again.

The idea might be cool, but I'd try to go for simplicty. Something like

?? - Action - P$
You may play an Action card from your hand.
If it costs less than 5$, +1 Card, +1 Action
If it costs less than 3$, play it again.

that has already a really similar effect, although with a bigger variety in power, and it's much shorter.

eHalcyon

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2014, 12:05:26 pm »
0

Lance Maker is boring to me, and you still need to be careful about Copper junkers.
Please explain yourself. Do you mean Copper junkers are too strong because the pile is too big?
I think it is quite interesting to have a Witch which works better in Engines than in BM.
Maybe there should be something else than Copper junking? Or just cancel the "otherwise" part?


Lance Maker (Action) $4
+$2
You may spend an Action.
If you do, each other player gains a Curse.

On the other hand, this would be meh in games without Villages.

Yes, it is near unlimited junking. The only official Copper junker is Mountebank, and that has a built in Most to stop it. Adding similar mitigation to Lance would be best. It's tricky though.
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popsofctown

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2014, 02:45:38 pm »
0

Lance Maker is boring to me, and you still need to be careful about Copper junkers.
Please explain yourself. Do you mean Copper junkers are too strong because the pile is too big?
I think it is quite interesting to have a Witch which works better in Engines than in BM.
Maybe there should be something else than Copper junking? Or just cancel the "otherwise" part?


Lance Maker (Action) $4
+$2
You may spend an Action.
If you do, each other player gains a Curse.

On the other hand, this would be meh in games without Villages.

Yes, it is near unlimited junking. The only official Copper junker is Mountebank, and that has a built in Most to stop it. Adding similar mitigation to Lance would be best. It's tricky though.
I really doubt that the availability of more than 10 coppers makes copper junking auto broken with incredibly frequency no matter how you cost the copper junker.  If the overall strength and pricing of the copper junker didn't matter and it was an inherently broken mechanic like cantrip+VP or something, then Jester would take on a much more defining role in a lot more games since it consistently hands out Copper, except for when it randomly does something even better than handing out Copper.  It had no need for a Mountebank style mitigater.

Saboteur is actually better than Jester for decks designed based on "man there's no limit on the number of times I can attack and degrade my opponent's deck quality", and Saboteur isn't even that good.

Copper just isn't as bad as a card as Curse is.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 02:47:44 pm by popsofctown »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2014, 02:58:44 pm »
+1

There aren't any official attacks that just hand out Copper freely. Why not?

I think this was discussed at some point in a secret history.

Edit:

Found a quote:

You can hand out stuff besides Curses. Estates are pretty bad. Copper isn't so hot. But handing out that kind of thing has issues. The Copper pile doesn't have a definite size, and varies with the number of players in a poor way. There are not very many Estates. You can do a few Witches that use cards like this, but most Witches cannot.

There are only a few Copper junkers.  Mountebank is one, and it hands out banes against itself.  Noble Brigand is another, but it's very unreliable.  Jester is similarly unreliable.  Also note that the "randomly does something even better" is incorrect.  Sometimes you hit mediocre cards that you don't want for yourself but don't hurt the opponent nearly as much.  Sometimes you hit cards that are actually bad for you but good for your opponent (often the case in non-mirrors).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 03:20:44 pm by eHalcyon »
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popsofctown

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2014, 04:27:56 pm »
0

There aren't any official attacks that just hand out Copper freely. Why not?

I think this was discussed at some point in a secret history.

Edit:

Found a quote:

You can hand out stuff besides Curses. Estates are pretty bad. Copper isn't so hot. But handing out that kind of thing has issues. The Copper pile doesn't have a definite size, and varies with the number of players in a poor way. There are not very many Estates. You can do a few Witches that use cards like this, but most Witches cannot.

There are only a few Copper junkers.  Mountebank is one, and it hands out banes against itself.  Noble Brigand is another, but it's very unreliable.  Jester is similarly unreliable.  Also note that the "randomly does something even better" is incorrect.  Sometimes you hit mediocre cards that you don't want for yourself but don't hurt the opponent nearly as much.  Sometimes you hit cards that are actually bad for you but good for your opponent (often the case in non-mirrors).
There's a pretty broad subset of games where there aren't any cards in that gray area, but still Jester never becomes a brutal attack players become addicted to spamming like Torturer or Saboteur. 

The DXV quote you pulled doesn't back up your argument at all.  It's the uncertain nature of the size of the copper pile that's the problem, not the brutality of handing out coppers endlessly.  It's that it's awkward for you to run out of Coppers at Johnny's house in a copperwitch mirror because Johnny only has Base, and then at Sally's house your strategy is wrong because Sally has both Base and Intrigue.  It seems pretty clear that if Donald could put 600 Copper in the base dominion box without logistical issue he would be fine with straight copper junking, based on my interpretation of his post.

For the purpose of a fan card it's up to you to know whether or not you mainly play 1v1 or have Base, Intrigue, and Dominion: Treasures and can play with an unlimited copper junker without issue.  For an official expansion you would have to design the card and have the expectation that it feels good both in 4 player base + 1 expansion dominion and 2 player base+intrigue+expansion dominion, which is impossible, especially with the 3 pile rule
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 04:30:43 pm by popsofctown »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2014, 05:22:24 pm »
0

"It varies with the number of players in a poor way".  It's not just that the size of the Copper pile varies depending on which sets you have, it's that the Copper pile doesn't scale with number of players the way Curses do.

And Jester is not primarily a Copper junker.  I don't know why you keep referring to it as such.  If Jester always gave the other players a Copper, it would probably be much stronger.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 05:28:47 pm by eHalcyon »
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popsofctown

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2014, 06:06:46 pm »
0

"It varies with the number of players in a poor way".  It's not just that the size of the Copper pile varies depending on which sets you have, it's that the Copper pile doesn't scale with number of players the way Curses do.

And Jester is not primarily a Copper junker.  I don't know why you keep referring to it as such.  If Jester always gave the other players a Copper, it would probably be much stronger.
Yeah, I talked about scaling to the number of players.  If you own enough coppers that it's infinite, the scaling is consistent (bottomless, Duchy rush happens before coppers possibly run out).

I'm incredibly skeptical that Copper only Jester would be stronger than Jester
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dondon151

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2014, 06:12:42 pm »
0

"It varies with the number of players in a poor way".  It's not just that the size of the Copper pile varies depending on which sets you have, it's that the Copper pile doesn't scale with number of players the way Curses do.

Yet that doesn't preclude the existence of unconditional Silver junkers...
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eHalcyon

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2014, 07:25:17 pm »
+1

"It varies with the number of players in a poor way".  It's not just that the size of the Copper pile varies depending on which sets you have, it's that the Copper pile doesn't scale with number of players the way Curses do.

And Jester is not primarily a Copper junker.  I don't know why you keep referring to it as such.  If Jester always gave the other players a Copper, it would probably be much stronger.
Yeah, I talked about scaling to the number of players.  If you own enough coppers that it's infinite, the scaling is consistent (bottomless, Duchy rush happens before coppers possibly run out).

I'm incredibly skeptical that Copper only Jester would be stronger than Jester

Jester is a weak attack because it so unreliable as an attack.  You hit mediocre cards and it doesn't really help you or hurt your opponent much at all.  When Jester is strong, it is almost never as an attack; rather, it is as a gainer of engine components.  Jester's attack is only strong in conjunction with Spy-type attacks (most notably Scrying Pool) when you can consistently hit VP to distribute Curses.  Though even then, it may be preferable to spy for a good card that Jester can then gain.

If Jester were instead a Copper-junking attack, the attack portion would be consistent and reliable, and it would actually hurt most of the time.  You would lose the gaining power of the official Jester, but it would become a better buy on more boards overall.

A while back, Donald wrote about ways to beat attacks.  One of the main ways is that you can "fight fire with fire".  Every Curse I give you is a Curse you can't give me.  Another way is to simply "set your sights lower".  Curses will run out, so you can go for Duchies and then you only need to empty a third pile.  But neither of these options are really feasible with Copper junking.  The pile is big enough that "fighting fire with fire" just makes every players' deck miserable, and emptying Duchies still leaves you far from a 3-pile ending.  Coppers might drain eventually, but not any time soon.  And then there's still that third pile.

So no, I don't think Copper junking is suddenly problem-free if you somehow have an unlimited pile of Copper.  The scaling may be consistent, but it's still terrible.  Can a Copper-junking attack work?  Sure.  But as I said earlier, you have to be careful about it.

And as always, if the fan card designer enjoys a certain mechanism and wants to play with it, that's absolutely cool.  They can knock themselves out.  But when they post it here looking for feedback, the assumption is that they are asking about how the card works in the context of official Dominion, so "it would work with a hypothetical unlimited pile of Copper" is not a consideration.  If people want to make political attacks or reactions that hurt the attacker, they are certainly free to do so, and I have no doubt that some people would really enjoy that.  But if they post it here, people can and should point out that such things are problematic.
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silverspawn

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2014, 07:27:55 pm »
0

I doubt that +2$; each other player gains a copper would be stronger than jester, but aside from that, I agree with everything you said.

eHalcyon

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2014, 07:32:33 pm »
0

I doubt that +2$; each other player gains a copper would be stronger than jester, but aside from that, I agree with everything you said.

I think the copper junker would be stronger more often, while Jester would be much stronger in a few situations, primarily for its card gaining ability.  In the context of comparing the attack strength, I think "Copper every time" is better than Jester's "sometimes Copper, sometimes Curse, sometimes [mediocre card], sometimes nothing".
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popsofctown

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2014, 08:22:11 pm »
0

Owning Intrigue, Base, and Dominion: Treasures is a way to have unlimited copper that is still official Dominion.  Fan cards can have a certain group of expansions as a requirement for a fan card, Donald can't, that's a real difference.  I don't think I've seen anyone say a card wasn't appropriate for this forum because it had a potion requirement and would require Alchemy to be owned, but at the same time Donald can't put a potion cost card in Guilds. 

I think maybe we disagree less than you think, because you do have to be careful with the cost and usability of the copper junker, even once you have an unlimited copper stack to make sure it behaves consistently.  And 4$ might be too cheap, it could need testing.  My point was that it's not a cardinal sin on a fan card, and I don't think the carefulness has to be as extreme as it is on Mountebank. E.G., I think a fan card that's a 5$ terminal silver copper junker won't have any issues besides being underpowered.

You can pile out Copper Junked games on Duchies, Estates, and an arbitrary 3$ card, it just takes longer, for the record.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Twisting options
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2014, 08:58:27 pm »
0

I never said it was a cardinal sin.  I said that it is problematic, and you have to be careful about it.  Owning base Dominion, Intrigue and Base Cards gives you a very large Copper stack, but it is still not unlimited.  In any case, my bigger point was that even if you could make it scale consistently, it still has issues.

A card that just hands out Copper every time is probably not interesting or fun enough to be worthwhile.  Yeah you could pile out Duchies, Estates and something else, but then you're looking at like 30+ turns because the 20-30 Copper in your deck makes it such a ridiculous slog.
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