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[ehunt]

Suppose I am uncreative and only play Dominion to win, late at night, when there isn't an ounce of soul left in my body but only the bleeding tiredness and the dryness, the Dominion because it is there, because it is something in a universe of nothing.

Um, anyway, how do I play rebuild when Duke is on the board? I keep getting really confused. I think there's some math involved.

[AHoppy]

Take all my advice with copious salt since I'm not great at Dominion and this is all off the top of my head, but my gut tells me you should just ignore it.  You're going to be rebuilding the duchies into provinces so ideally you are going to end with maybe 2 or 3 duchies, making the dukes not worth much.  If the duchies are gone, pick up dukes with 5, but otherwise I'd just go straight for provinces.  Filling your deck with more estates to rebuild into dukes doesn't feel worth it unless you massively won the duchy split, in which case you've already won.

But I'm terrible at rebuild w/o duke...

[Titandrake]

I think you play it the same way, with a few differences:

-Your goal is to get the most Duchies. This is usually your goal, but now it's even more true.
-Estates are no longer dead because they can turn into Duke, so you can buy Estates on $2/$3 turns more often. I think Silver > Estate if you already have some though.
- When Rebuilding, name Duchy, turn Estate->Duchy/Duke, Duke->Province, Province->Province

If you lost the Duchy split, odds are you just lose, since I don't think you can afford to trash Duchies->Province when your opponent has the option of either Duke or Province for VP. Think of it this way: whenever you Rebuild Duchy->Province you get +3 VP. If you have 4 Duchies, then Estate->Duke is also 3 VP, and buying some extra Estates to Rebuild along the way is a lot easier, while leaving you the option of Rebuilding to Provinces to force a game end.

[ehunt]

I think you play it the same way, with a few differences:

-Your goal is to get the most Duchies. This is usually your goal, but now it's even more true.
-Estates are no longer dead because they can turn into Duke, so you can buy Estates on $2/$3 turns more often. I think Silver > Estate if you already have some though.
- When Rebuilding, name Duchy, turn Estate->Duchy/Duke, Duke->Province, Province->Province

If you lost the Duchy split, odds are you just lose, since I don't think you can afford to trash Duchies->Province when your opponent has the option of either Duke or Province for VP. Think of it this way: whenever you Rebuild Duchy->Province you get +3 VP. If you have 4 Duchies, then Estate->Duke is also 3 VP, and buying some extra Estates to Rebuild along the way is a lot easier, while leaving you the option of Rebuilding to Provinces to force a game end.

thanks ! I think "in general, protect duchy, even if it means turning province into province occasionally" was the insight I was missing. the point is that (unlike in usual rebuild) you can't protect all your point sources, but duchies are the most precious by far.

do you think graverobber/rogue become better with dukes lying in the trash? that seems awfully tempting, as a card you can play for 4 is worth even more than a rebuild

[ehunt]

Take all my advice with copious salt since I'm not great at Dominion and this is all off the top of my head, but my gut tells me you should just ignore it.  You're going to be rebuilding the duchies into provinces so ideally you are going to end with maybe 2 or 3 duchies, making the dukes not worth much.  If the duchies are gone, pick up dukes with 5, but otherwise I'd just go straight for provinces.  Filling your deck with more estates to rebuild into dukes doesn't feel worth it unless you massively won the duchy split, in which case you've already won.

But I'm terrible at rebuild w/o duke...

thanks! one thing to consider is that you can rebuild the dukes into provinces, so it may indeed be worth filling with estates in order to get the dukes (imagine duke is a 5-cost victory card that literally does nothing -- you would definitely want to get a few in a rebuild game! now the fact that duke DOES do something, and that this something interacts with the duchy war, is what I find confusing).

[qdread]

I feel like the key difference is that in a typical Rebuild game, you have to stop building your deck (buying Rebuilds, Silvers and the like) sooner so that you can try to empty the Duchy pile when you get $5. Preferably you empty the Duchy pile while sticking the opponent with Estates in their deck. Since running out of $5 cards to Rebuild into is no longer an issue with Duke on the board, you can build longer, buy more money and Rebuilds, before making an assault on the Duchies/Dukes. Are there simulation results on this>

[Titandrake]

I feel like the key difference is that in a typical Rebuild game, you have to stop building your deck (buying Rebuilds, Silvers and the like) sooner so that you can try to empty the Duchy pile when you get $5. Preferably you empty the Duchy pile while sticking the opponent with Estates in their deck. Since running out of $5 cards to Rebuild into is no longer an issue with Duke on the board, you can build longer, buy more money and Rebuilds, before making an assault on the Duchies/Dukes. Are there simulation results on this>

It's true that the game is going to go longer, but I don't think that means you can delay the Duchy gaining. The VP from Dukes is too much to ignore just through Provinces. (Note that 5 Duchies + 3 Dukes > 3 Duchies + 5 Dukes. Even if you let it be 5 Duchies + 2 Dukes vs 3 Duchies + 6 Dukes, it's only 2 VP less with 2 fewer victory cards.)

I'd be interested in simulation results too though, you may be able to get enough Provinces to make losing the Duchy split okay, and rebuilding to Provinces isn't as helpful for the player with more Duchies.

[ThaddeusB]

I think you play it the same way, with a few differences:

-Your goal is to get the most Duchies. This is usually your goal, but now it's even more true.
-Estates are no longer dead because they can turn into Duke, so you can buy Estates on $2/$3 turns more often. I think Silver > Estate if you already have some though.
- When Rebuilding, name Duchy, turn Estate->Duchy/Duke, Duke->Province, Province->Province

If you lost the Duchy split, odds are you just lose, since I don't think you can afford to trash Duchies->Province when your opponent has the option of either Duke or Province for VP. Think of it this way: whenever you Rebuild Duchy->Province you get +3 VP. If you have 4 Duchies, then Estate->Duke is also 3 VP, and buying some extra Estates to Rebuild along the way is a lot easier, while leaving you the option of Rebuilding to Provinces to force a game end.

thanks ! I think "in general, protect duchy, even if it means turning province into province occasionally" was the insight I was missing. the point is that (unlike in usual rebuild) you can't protect all your point sources, but duchies are the most precious by far.

do you think graverobber/rogue become better with dukes lying in the trash? that seems awfully tempting, as a card you can play for  is worth even more than a rebuild

Graverobber/Rogue are crucial in any Rebuild game, not just with Duke.

[WanderingWinder]

As per basically always, it depends on whether you're mirrored. In the mirror, cutting out 5-cost VPs is now not a thing. In the non-mirror, you can load up on duchy/duke points pretty well?