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Author Topic: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card  (Read 8844 times)

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georgeandginnie

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procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« on: November 22, 2014, 10:07:29 pm »
0

i need help from donald x on the rules governing the timing of the action card that accompanies the procession card.
lets say i play a card like a village that gives me +2 actions. my next action is a procession and a death cart. i plan to trash that death cart, but when? if my second extra action is a graverobber then the timing of the trashing of the death cart is important. do i trash the death cart immediately, then have the ability to get it back from the trash with the graverobber? or is the death card trashed at the end of the action phase?
also, if i play the procession and the death cart (as above), if i play that combination and i plan to trash the death cart, if it gets trashed immediately to i get to play it the second time as required by the procession card?
thanks
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liopoil

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2014, 10:10:58 pm »
+7

I'm not Donald X., but I can answer this. Here's what happens:

You play procession on death cart. You don't trash anything, so the death cart goes to the trash pile and you get 5 coins. Then an imaginary death cart gets played again and you get another 5 coins and you have the option to trash an action from your hand (nothing will happen if you don't). Then procession tries to trash the death cart but fails, and you gain a 5-cost action card anyway. Now you can play graverobber if you want and gain the death cart from the trash.
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eHalcyon

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2014, 10:32:05 pm »
+4

I am also not Donald X., but here is a much longer description than liopoil's about what happens, intended to help you understand why these things happen as they do.  If something is confusing here, please ask about it and I or somebody else will try to clarify.

You follow the wording on the card exactly as it is written.  Procession says:

You may play an Action card from your hand twice.  Trash it.  Gain an action card costing exactly $1 more than it.

So after you play Procession, you choose a card to play.  You play it twice.  Only after you've played it twice does Procession trash it.  However, it is possible that the card will cause itself to be trashed.  After Procession tries to trash it, you gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it. 

The timing on all Dominion cards is exactly as written on the cards.  If something happens at a different time, it will say so (e.g. Scheme specifically talks about the start of the clean-up phase).  Just follow the instructions exactly as written on the card.

So with your specific example of Death Cart...

First you play Village.
Then you play Procession.
You choose Death Cart.

First play of Death Cart: You get +$5, then you can choose to trash an Action card from your hand.  If you do not, Death Cart trashes itself.

Second play of Death Cart (note: it gets played a second time even if it already got trashed): You get another +$5, and you can choose to trash an Action card from your hand.  If you do not, Death Cart trashes itself.

Up to this point, the way Procession works is the same as Throne Room.  If you play TR+DC, you'll have to trash two Action cards from your hand or else Death Cart will trash itself.

But now, after you've played it twice, Procession tells you to trash the card you choose.  If Death Cart was already trashed, you can't trash it again.  If you did trash two Action cards from your hand when resolving the two plays of Death Cart, then you still have to trash Death Cart now due to Procession.

After you've trashed it, then you gain an action card costing exactly $1 more than it.    Most of the time this means that you will gain a $5 action card (exceptions: no $5 action card available in the Supply; cost reduction via Highway, Bridge or Quarry changing the cost of Death Cart and other cards on the board).  For example, you might gain a Graverobber.  The gained card goes into your discard pile.  Note that this instruction to gain a card does not say "if you do" at the start, so it happens even if Procession fails to trash the chosen card in the previous step.  Procession maybe did not trash Death Cart (because it already trashed itself earlier) but you still gain an action card from Procession.

Only now are you done resolving Procession.  Since you played a Village, you still have 1 action remaining (the plays of Death Cart were part of resolving Procession and thus did not take up extra actions).  If you have another action card in your hand, you can play it now.  You could play a Graverobber in your hand to retrieve the Death Cart from the trash, putting it into your discard pile on top of your deck and gaining two more Ruins, which go into your discard.  (You could even play, say, a Laboratory, triggering a reshuffle and drawing the Graverobber you had just gained from Procession and then play that Graverobber...)

So to answer your questions directly:

- Procession trashes the chosen card during its resolution -- after the card is played twice, before you gain a card.

- You can use Graverobber after Procession to gain the card back, providing that you have an action to play Graverobber from your hand, and that the Procession'd card is in the trash (which might not be the case with some cards such as Island or Fortress).

- If the Procession'd card gets removes itself on the first play (e.g. Death Cart trashing itself, Island islanding itself), you still get to play it the second time.

Edit: correcting Graverobber stuff, as per AJD's post below.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 12:56:32 am by eHalcyon »
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AJD

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2014, 11:38:54 pm »
+5

You could play a Graverobber in your hand to retrieve the Death Cart from the trash, putting it into your discard pile.

…Putting it on your deck, I think.

(Also, don't forget to gain two Ruins when you do this! Gaining Death Cart triggers that even when the Death Cart is gained from the trash.)
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eHalcyon

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2014, 12:55:07 am »
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You could play a Graverobber in your hand to retrieve the Death Cart from the trash, putting it into your discard pile.

…Putting it on your deck, I think.

(Also, don't forget to gain two Ruins when you do this! Gaining Death Cart triggers that even when the Death Cart is gained from the trash.)

Whoops!  Good catch.
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faust

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2014, 08:06:43 am »
+4

I am also not Donald X!

(Except everyone in this forum is WanderingWinder, and Donald X and me are in this forum, so maybe...)
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liopoil

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2014, 04:04:37 pm »
+4

Donald upvoted my post, so I pretty much am Donald X. actually.
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pacovf

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2014, 04:18:27 pm »
+5

Donald upvoted my post, so I pretty much am Donald X. actually.

You can not upvote your own postsI tried. Donald X. upvoted your post... Ergo, you are not Donald X.

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silverspawn

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2014, 04:19:44 pm »
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you also can't downvote your own posts. I didn't downvote your post, therefore I'm pacovf

liopoil

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2014, 06:28:56 pm »
+1

Donald upvoted my post, so I pretty much am Donald X. actually.

You can not upvote your own postsI tried. Donald X. upvoted your post... Ergo, you are not Donald X.


You should have tried harder; just make an alt like I did.
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pacovf

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2014, 06:33:53 pm »
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You should have tried harder; just make an alt like I did.

You get a


I'll call him fvocap. I'm sure nobody will make the connection.



Also:

« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 06:35:36 pm by pacovf »
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silverspawn

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2014, 06:36:30 pm »
+1

I'll call him fvocap. I'm sure nobody will make the connection.
fvocap is your username spelled backwards. But the connection is so obvious that everyone will make it instantly, that's why it's funny to express confidence that no-one will get it.

You also just lost The Game.

pacovf

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2014, 06:39:25 pm »
0

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2014, 07:30:30 pm »
+1



Why oh why is that image flipped horizontally? It makes me sad.
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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2014, 08:53:09 pm »
+3

you also can't downvote your own posts. I didn't downvote your post, therefore I'm pacovf

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Asper

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2014, 07:01:59 am »
+2

If i play Band of Misfits by Procession, how does it work? Do i play a Band of Misfits twice or the card i play the first time? Donald says Throne variants log onto the played card, and even if BoM trashes itself during the first play, becoming BoM again, i still play the faked card. So did i never play a Band of Misfits? If yes, didn't i (under normal circumstances) play and trash a card costing at most 4$ and should gain a card according to that? Donald said Procession looks in the trash to determine the cost of the card it considers, but i think the wording makes it look like you should look either at the card you play or trash (depending on how you interpret it). If i look at the played card and if i look at the card i trash, both usually cost 4$ or less. Assuming that the card i trash and the trashed card are not tnecessarily the same thing, i think it would be much clearer if it said "than the trashed card". The way it's worded, i can't possibly read it this way, though.

What would happen if it said "than the trashed card": I chose a card to play. If that card is BoM, i never actually play BoM, but Feast, for example. I resolve it twice, than trash it. The "trashed" card is the card that's allready in the trash, not the card i trash. For some reason, BoM is not lost track of - maybe because it physically stays the same card. I look at the trashed card's price and resolve the gaining according to it. Kinda makes sense now. I assume that's what the "it" in the last sentence is supposed to mean, though from the wording it can't.

Hmm... Or, Throne variants "logging on" to the card they play means you are actually playing two BoM  and just incapable of changing what they do. Seems incredibly counter intuitive to me though, as Throne never else dictates how to resolve its card.

I guess reading the last sentence the way i said really makes the most sense... Opinions?

Edited for clarity.

Edit 2: And before anyone wonders, BoM is in play while being trashed, so that's no way of wiggling out of this, either. It's why a BoM faking a Fortress returns to your hand when Processed.

Edit 3: Then again, i can gain Poor House after playing Madman... Aaaargh.

Edit 4: Maybe it's just trivially, sequentially "looking at the card, wherever it is now". So Procession has "never lose track" powers? That's not better, either.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 03:18:38 pm by Asper »
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markusin

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2014, 12:27:37 pm »
0

Like Throne Room, Procession can totally lose track of a card...except when it's time to gain an action based on the cost of the trashed card. That's my interpretation anyway.

From a coding perspective, it's like Procession imports and uses the functionality of Throne Room after you choose to play an action. The Procession itself cannot lose track of the card, but the "borrowed" Throne Rom part of it can. Once we resolve the play-twice Throne Room part, the Procession flexes its no-lose-track powers on the card in the trash, now a BOM.

I am aware that this most likely only adds to the confusion.

Edit: And it can't lose track of cards returned to the supply either, it seems.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 12:29:28 pm by markusin »
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pacovf

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2014, 12:54:53 pm »
+1

Lose Track Rule only applies when moving cards. Procession (etc.) can't forget your choices. The card you gain costs 1$ more than the card from your hand you played. It doesn't matter where that card is right now, Procession remembers. When it is time to move the card to the trash, Procession needs to know where the card is, and it only knows if it is in play, because that's where Procession left it.

Procession-BoM is a hard-coded interaction. It does what it does because the Rulebook says so. IIRC (can't find the quote), Donald recognized that the way they should work, based on the wording of both cards, was too unintuitive, so he decided on this specific ruling, and that's how it is.


EDIT: to people confused about Lose Track Rule, maybe you can think about it as code? "move" is a function that requires three arguments: the id of the card to be moved, a starting position, and a target position. This is what processsion does:

Code: [Select]
Procession():

  card = player_choose_from_hand( condition = "type == action"")
  card_effect = read(card)

  do(card_effect)
  do(card_effect)

  move(card, from = play_area, to = trash)

  card_cost = get_cost(card)
  gain(from = supply, to = discard, condition = "cost == card_cost+1 & type == action")

  end

So, if by the time "move(card, from = play_area, to = trash)" is executed, "card" is not in "play_area" anymore, Procession sends a warning and keeps going.
However, the function "get_cost" only has the card id as argument, so no problem there if your card moves about.

Not sure if this makes it clearer or not...
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 12:58:53 pm by pacovf »
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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2014, 01:10:44 pm »
+5

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Asper

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2014, 03:14:14 pm »
0

The card you gain costs 1$ more than the card from your hand you played. It doesn't matter where that card is right now, Procession remembers.

Not true. Procession waits until after the trashing to look at the card's price, meaning it would have to lose track of Madman. If it would look at the price when playing it, i could use Procession to play a Bridge and gain a card costing 5$ afterwards. I can't.
Edit: Or can i? I'm pretty sure i can't.

Procession-BoM is a hard-coded interaction. It does what it does because the Rulebook says so. IIRC (can't find the quote), Donald recognized that the way they should work, based on the wording of both cards, was too unintuitive, so he decided on this specific ruling, and that's how it is.

He really said that? Oh my, no wonder the "official" rule is so strange to me. Does anyone else know where he said that, maybe?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 03:15:53 pm by Asper »
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pacovf

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 03:32:03 pm »
+1

The card you gain costs 1$ more than the card from your hand you played. It doesn't matter where that card is right now, Procession remembers.

Not true. Procession waits until after the trashing to look at the card's price, meaning it would have to lose track of Madman. If it would look at the price when playing it, i could use Procession to play a Bridge and gain a card costing 5$ afterwards. I can't.
Edit: Or can i? I'm pretty sure i can't.

So, here's procession.

Quote
You may play an action card from your hand twice. Trash it. Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it.

"it" here refers to "the action card originally in your hand you played twice".

"Trash" means "move the card from where I think it is (in play) to the trash pile". If the card isn't in play, Procession can't move it. A card needs to know where the card it is trying to move is, otherwise it fails to do so. That's the Lose Track Rule.

"Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it" checks the cost of "the action card originally in your hand you played twice", independently of where it is now. Procession isn't trying to move the card anymore, so it doesn't need to know where the card is. So this can't fail, short of retconning the past into a universe where you never played the card in the first place, which is not something a card can do in Dominion (although that might change next year).

When you play a Procession on Bridge, afterwards you gain a card whose printed cost is $5: both the cost of that card and the cost of Bridge will be reduced by $2 (yes, there are edge cases).

Hopefully I didn't say anything wrong here.
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Asper

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2014, 03:59:30 pm »
0

"Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it" checks the cost of "the action card originally in your hand you played twice", independently of where it is now. Procession isn't trying to move the card anymore, so it doesn't need to know where the card is. So this can't fail, short of retconning the past into a universe where you never played the card in the first place, which is not something a card can do in Dominion (although that might change next year).

So you are implying "lose track" only means that it can't move a card. I don't have any official ruling on this, but i would find it weird should it be able to find out the price of a card of which it doesn't even know the whereabouts. After all, "lose track" is a name that kind of implies that you lose, you know, track. Talking program wise, it's a lot like being unable to reference a removed object. Why should the reference be available for one thing but not for the other?

I'm not even saying you are wrong. Probably you are right. I just find the ruling a bit arbitrary if it's the case.
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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2014, 04:17:16 pm »
+2

The Lose Track Rule exists because there is a very real possibility of the player not having access to the card, because the card has been discarded and then covered by another card, or put on top of your deck then your deck got shuffled... or else a card being set aside and then brought back to the game in such a way that it breaks stuff. So the Lose Track Rule makes a blanket ruling on all these situations and says, "don't move the card again, it's fine wherever it is". That way future cards don't need to be careful about inn doing weird stuff or prince setting itself aside.

This can't happen with information relative to the kind of card it is. The player can remember, say, the price of Feast, because there's likely another copy of it somewhere in view of everybody. So cards don't "lose track" of other cards when they are only interested in their "static" info.

So that's why it works in one case but not in the other. At least, that's my understanding of it.
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Donald X.

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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2014, 06:57:50 pm »
+1

So you are implying "lose track" only means that it can't move a card. I don't have any official ruling on this, but i would find it weird should it be able to find out the price of a card of which it doesn't even know the whereabouts. After all, "lose track" is a name that kind of implies that you lose, you know, track. Talking program wise, it's a lot like being unable to reference a removed object. Why should the reference be available for one thing but not for the other?
The "lose track" rule made it into the Dark Ages rulebook. It only applies to moving cards. The rule exists because you might actually have lost track of a card and thus be unable to move it (though for cases covered by the rule, you may personally know where the card is). It only applies to moving cards because that's the only issue; we can't move a lost card, but we can still know information about it.

Quote
In rare circumstances an effect may try to move a card that isn't where that effect expects the card to be. In those cases the card does not move - the effect has "lost track" of the card. Losing track of a card prevents it from being moved, but doesn't stop anything else from happening. For example, if you Procession a Madman, Procession first puts Madman in play; then you resolve Madman, getting +2 Actions and drawing cards and returning Madman to the Madman pile; then Procession fails to put Madman into play again, because Procession expects to find Madman in play, but it isn't there, it's in the Madman pile; then you resolve Madman again, only getting +2 Actions this time, since it says "if you do" before the card-drawing, and you did not actually return it to the Madman pile this time; then Procession fails to trash Madman since Procession again expects to find Madman in play and it isn't there; and then you gain an Action costing $1 if you can. Cards don't lose track of cards that they move, only cards that other cards move. For example when Procession puts Madman into play, that does not cause Procession to lose track of Madman; it's Madman moving itself that causes Procession to lose track of it. Things lose track of a card if something moves it, if it's the top card of a deck and gets covered up, or if it's the top card of a discard pile and gets covered up.
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Re: procession card and the timing of trashing the action card
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2014, 06:59:38 pm »
0

This can't happen with information relative to the kind of card it is. The player can remember, say, the price of Feast, because there's likely another copy of it somewhere in view of everybody.
In most cases, there's the randomizer card to refer to. As always there are Exceptions.
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