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Author Topic: Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply  (Read 3598 times)

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TheOthin

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Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply
« on: November 20, 2014, 10:14:34 pm »
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Before Guilds, there was some talk about what you could do on Turn 3 with Zaps in a solitaire game. At the time, it wasn't much. (Or maybe everyone just didn't like Zaps and didn't feel like testing the limits.)

Now we've got some (relatively) new tricks available. And with them in mind, I believe the question is not whether or not a Zap-armed deck is able to empty the supply on Turn 3, but what's the minimum number of Zaps it takes to do it in single-player? And how much VP is available under those conditions?

I have a pretty basic solution to the point where known strategies can take over but I'm really curious to see if the Zap count can be cut down.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2014, 10:20:34 pm »
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This sounds like a pretty good one.  I may or may not have time to make an attempt.  A couple of questions/suggestions come to mind.

Posting exactly what the zaps do would probably be helpful, because I think I know what they do, but I never really used them, so I'm not certain.  (Turn Coppers into Silvers or Golds?)

Is this a choose your own shuffle luck, or must work in all cases question?

liopoil

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Re: Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2014, 10:23:19 pm »
+1

Zap one copper into silver, the usual suspects in the kingdom.

T1: 6 coins, get stonemason, procession, fortress
T2: 3 coins, get watchtower
T3: Get everything else

It's not quite this easy. There might be a better opening than this, but with this opening you start by playing necro then stonemasoning fortress into black market and watchtower on the deck, then do procession fortress to draw and get actions and gain a haggler, then do the BM and watchtower thing to gain and draw cards you like, and eventually you'll be able to get 2 processions in hand with a fortress and watchtower. That's all you need, after all. I'm not going to work out the details, but I am certain it can be done with one zap. Even without a zap you can come really close to going off, even ending the game on turn 3.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 10:24:51 pm by liopoil »
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TheOthin

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Re: Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2014, 10:42:52 pm »
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This sounds like a pretty good one.  I may or may not have time to make an attempt.  A couple of questions/suggestions come to mind.

Posting exactly what the zaps do would probably be helpful, because I think I know what they do, but I never really used them, so I'm not certain.  (Turn Coppers into Silvers or Golds?)

Is this a choose your own shuffle luck, or must work in all cases question?
Good catches. Zaps turn Coppers into Silvers and Estates/Shelters into Duchies. My thinking was complete shuffle control; as fun as perfectly reliable strategies are they don't seem to get along well with super-fast endgame stuff.

Zap one copper into silver, the usual suspects in the kingdom.

T1: 6 coins, get stonemason, procession, fortress
T2: 3 coins, get watchtower
T3: Get everything else

It's not quite this easy. There might be a better opening than this, but with this opening you start by playing necro then stonemasoning fortress into black market and watchtower on the deck, then do procession fortress to draw and get actions and gain a haggler, then do the BM and watchtower thing to gain and draw cards you like, and eventually you'll be able to get 2 processions in hand with a fortress and watchtower. That's all you need, after all. I'm not going to work out the details, but I am certain it can be done with one zap. Even without a zap you can come really close to going off, even ending the game on turn 3.
Holy shit. I used five zaps, bought Stonemason with Fortress and Nomad Camp Turn 1, with the Nomad Camp allowing a second Stonemason with two Processions, plus a Watchtower, on Turn 2. That went straight to the Procession-Procession-Fortress-Watchtower setup. But if Stonemason lets you skip the second Procession buy and use just one zap... wow.

Turn 3 strats with Stonemason are fascinating. I played around with them a bit, but didn't manage to figure out how to get it to stay alive until I saw your take on it. Unfortunate that it seems like the limit for a no-zap strategy right now, but if it really is that close, I wonder what'll be possible with the next set?

I'm definitely gonna have to play around with this a bit to understand how it works out.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 10:45:12 pm by TheOthin »
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TheOthin

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Re: Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2014, 11:37:38 pm »
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So let's see if I can fully follow this.

You start Turn 3 with N, Sm, Ft, Pr, Wt in hand. Play N, play Sm on Ft, you've got one Action left and Bm and Wt on deck. Pr on Ft, you go up to four Actions, your hand is Ft, Bm, Wt, Wt and you've got Hg on deck.

You play Wt to pick up Hg, plus a Silver and a Copper. Play Hg and Bm, you're going into the Bm deck with $7 available and one Action on standby. And... I don't quite understand what you pick up from Bm to keep going. Did you have a particular buy in mind? It seems like whatever you buy you have to use up enough resources getting it into your hand that you won't have much left to do once it's there.

I mean, you could play Black Market first, so that Watchtower will pick up the thing you get, but then you're locked to $2 and you have no Hagglers out to expand the buy. Squire can get somewhere but only so far.

I'm confused.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 11:43:39 pm by TheOthin »
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Zappie

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Re: Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2014, 04:36:32 am »
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liopoil

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Re: Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2014, 07:29:06 am »
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Yeah I didn't think it all the way through. There are a few other options though, I might actually work out the details later and edit them into this post
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TheOthin

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Re: Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2014, 09:08:09 am »
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The fact that you were able to get so close with no zaps really makes it feel like there'll be something from even just a small adjustment from being able to substitute out the Turn 1 Nc buy.

Maybe working in that same direction somehow, with N, then Pr on Sm on Ft? Make two Cu, topdeck one, trash the other to draw the first, then hit that one with the second Sm. This is the same situation as your no-zap strategy but with an extra Ft in hand... would that be enough of a change to get somewhere? Topdeck a Pr or two? Unfortunately we've got so much Cu drawing that using Wt to get to those topdecked cards doesn't look possible...

There's also the matter of kingdom space. Compared to CC's strategy, it seems like this can skip Nc, Hm, and Pd for Sm, Sq, and Cu, but then there's no room to add Dv, unless it's possible to skip something else.
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TheOthin

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Re: Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2014, 04:05:05 pm »
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Did some playing around with the middle numbers to work my way down.


4 Zaps

Turn 1, SSCC gets you a standard Stonemason, Procession, and Nomad Camp. Turn 2, NcSSC plus the Coin token gets Watchtower and Catacombs. Turn 3, play Necropolis, then Stonemason on the Catacombs to pick up a Fortress and two more Processions. Watchtower puts the Fortress in your hand and the two Processions on your deck, then use your first Procession on the Fortress to draw the second and third and then get a Catacombs which you turn into the fourth. Now you've got a hand of Procession, Procession, Fortress, Watchtower with a Procession on your deck and you're ready to go boom.


3 Zaps

Turn 1, SSSCC picks up a Stonemason, two Border Villages, Catacombs, and Procession. Turn 2, CC plus the Coin token gets a Watchtower. Turn 3, draw any five of the six gained cards and use one Border Village to draw the sixth. Stonemason on Catacombs for Fortress and two more Processions, then play the other Border Village to draw one of the Processions. Back at the setup for the Procession explosion.


2 Zaps

Turn 1, SSCCC and the Coin token picks up Stonemason, two Border Villages, Catacombs, and Watchtower. Turn 2, CC gets Hamlet. Turn 3, draw five, play Border Village, draw sixth. Play Stonemason on Catacombs for Fortress and two Processions. Draw them with Hamlet and the other Border Village. No Procession on deck yet but that gets fixed quickly with the first Procession wave.


So it's possible with two Zaps, but any less and you can't get make it to $8 to double-buy Border Villages with Stonemason. This removes a lot of price flexibility.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 04:06:46 pm by TheOthin »
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ghostofmars

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Re: Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2014, 08:22:50 pm »
+2

I had this idea to go down to 2 turns, but I cannot get it to work. The idea is to gain a Stonemason, two Border Villages, ? (probably Watchtower), and an Inn.
This puts all turn 1 gains on top of the deck and should enable a nice start that will definitely work in 3 turns.
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TheOthin

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Re: Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2014, 08:59:48 pm »
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I had this idea to go down to 2 turns, but I cannot get it to work. The idea is to gain a Stonemason, two Border Villages, ? (probably Watchtower), and an Inn.
This puts all turn 1 gains on top of the deck and should enable a nice start that will definitely work in 3 turns.

Inn? Huh, I hadn't considered that at all. Stonemason + Border Village would still require at least two Zaps, and you'd definitely need Watchtower. From there, you'd have to start with Inn on Turn 2 to get Actions to work with, draw+discard a pair of starting cards, and then Stonemason to trash a Border Village into things. You could get a Fortress and a Procession, then use the other Border Village to draw the Procession, but then all you've got is a single Procession with Fortress and Watchtower. I don't think you can get anywhere from there, and I don't think it's possible to do any better on Turn 2.

However, applying Inn to a one-Zap, three-turn strategy... hmm. You'd pick up Stonemason and overpay by $5 to get Inn and Catacombs, then stick them on top. (Goko seems to agree that Inn works that way rather than resolving before the Stonemason buy.) Drawing all three Turn 2 means there are only three cards from your original deck still there, so you draw and discard two with Inn. Then you can use Stonemason to crack open Catacombs for three cards. Then Turn 3 you draw Necropolis, then reshuffle and get Stonemason, and three out of Inn + the three cards you picked. So what might work?

Let's say you picked up Watchtower and two Processions, and you draw Inn, Watchtower, and one of the Processions alongside Necropolis and Stonemason. You use Necropolis, then Stonemason on Inn to take Fortress and a third Procession. You put the Fortress in your hand and the third Procession on your deck with the second, then play your first Procession on Fortress to draw the other two... I think it works for one-zap Turn 3!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 11:26:23 am by TheOthin »
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liopoil

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Re: Zaps vs. Turn 3 Empty Supply
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2014, 09:01:04 pm »
+2

I had this idea to go down to 2 turns, but I cannot get it to work. The idea is to gain a Stonemason, two Border Villages, ? (probably Watchtower), and an Inn.
This puts all turn 1 gains on top of the deck and should enable a nice start that will definitely work in 3 turns.
Great idea!

2 Zaps. Starting deck:

SSCCC, NOEHCC

T1: use coin token, stonemason gaining 2 BV gaining watchtower, inn. Shuffle all into deck.
T2: Hand: Sm, W, 2BV, N. Deck: inn, OE, HCC

N, Sm on BV gaining Ft in hand (trash a Ca), Develop on deck. Play BV drawing develop. Hand: W, Ft, Develop, 2 actions. Develop the fortress into develop on the deck, Ca-->Ft in hand. Play Fortress, repeat. This will empty the Fortress, Develop, and Catacombs piles. So you can end the game in 2 turns with 2 zaps, at least.
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