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Author Topic: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine  (Read 6558 times)

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Elanchana

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Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« on: November 19, 2014, 06:28:17 pm »
0

I played Snute's custom board on my stream today and apparently a lot of people (Awaclus, who asked me to make this thread, included) had a lot of things to say about it. Problem is, the chat went down, so I didn't get to see any of that. So here are the game logs and timestamps if you want to comment.



Code: [Select]
Cellar, Fishing Village, Bridge, Ironworks, Smithy, Festival, Mine, Adventurer, Expand, King's Court
Game 1 (48:35)
Game 2 (1:48:45)
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2014, 06:30:35 pm »
+7

you have to get the things and the stuff and the draw and the plays and the actions and then KC the bridges and then make BOOOOM and empty the province pile. it's pretty straight forward.

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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2014, 07:18:34 pm »
+1

Haven't really looked at the logs, but here's my initial thoughts

- Whoever gets the first KC-Bridge wins the game almost all the time. Whoever gets the first KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-whatever wins the game 99.9% of the time. So, your goal is to make that happen
- In particular, this makes all of the $5+ costs besides KC a trap. Any actions you want you can get from FV, any buys from Bridge, and Ironworks fills the gap. The only way to trash non-actions into actions is Expand, but by the time you can actually do much with it you should be drawing your deck anyways.

A Smithy-FV opening is worth thinking about for the possibility of getting $7 very early, but this isn't that likely. You either need FV + Smithy + 3 Copper drawing the other 3, or FV from last turn then play Smithy drawing at most 1 Estate, or Smithy + 4 Copper drawing the other 3. These are all pretty unlikely, and I think that although opening IW gives you less early cycling, it'll more than make up for it in gaining you components.

From there it actually is a pretty straightforward engine, but there are some subtleties.
- When in doubt, gain the actions/play the cards that let you cycle more cards of your deck, so you primarily want FV/Smithy early.
- You only need 1 Bridge before your first KC, and after you get KC you can probably get whatever you want because KC-Bridge is crazy. Any more just slows you down, and you only want the 1 Bridge to make sure you can land KC-Bridge the turn after you gain your first KC
- FV is so good for actions that you don't need too many to make your deck start running, so you can get more Smithies than usual. (Especially true after you get KC, then KC-IW can act as +Actions if you really need it.)
- 3 piles are going to come out of nowhere, and remember that you can play actions gained from IW if you have enough draw, so be very careful
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2014, 02:16:39 am »
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It looks like FV-IW is a solid opening. You can IW your bridges and smithys, buy FV, and go. You should have plenty of draw+actions to ignore your starting cards, unless you manage to KC-Expand, but wouldn't you just want more Bridges anyways? It looks like a fast game for sure.
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2014, 05:56:05 am »
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My thoughts:

Smithy is obviously key as much as FV for getting it going. There's no thrashing, so Smithy is the only way to cycle through your deck with those ten late-game malicious opening cards. I don't think bothering for any other cards than these four is worth it, except for a single IW to pick up the important pieces.

Treasures, Mines, Festivals are unnecessary cloggers. I think. Mine is probably the best of those cards still, as it clogs up your deck not so much for the buying power it gives for the KC, but I doubt it's actually worth it if you have two Smithies and a couple of Bridges maybe.

FV - IW looks the best opening to me, IW is obvious over Bridge and more engine components is more important than a lucky KC. Smithy has priority over Bridge as your second 4. Then it's just picking up Bridges, Smithies and FV in the right order (I think 2 Bridges slows you down a little bit, but maybe it can pick up that extra Smithy you need), and KC when you have the chance. The draw is the most important though, without draw you'll never get to KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-X.
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2014, 07:38:32 am »
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FV - IW looks the best opening to me, IW is obvious over Bridge and more engine components is more important than a lucky KC. Smithy has priority over Bridge as your second 4. Then it's just picking up Bridges, Smithies and FV in the right order (I think 2 Bridges slows you down a little bit, but maybe it can pick up that extra Smithy you need), and KC when you have the chance. The draw is the most important though, without draw you'll never get to KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-X.

Your third and likely also fourth 4 should probably be Smitties as well. The probability of Bridge becoming a terminal silver in a deck full of stop cards (FV's, Ironworks, 7 Coppers and 3 Estates) is really high. I would not get Bridge until I have a LOT of draw (which means, LOTS of smitties and/or a couple of them + KC). Getting to play IW is better than playing a single Bridge unless the Bridge takes you to KC (and Bridge is really unlikely to do that better than more Smitties, if you have a couple of FVs to back them up).
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2014, 10:49:24 am »
+2

FV/Ironworks is definitely the best opening. Then you want lots of Smithies. I wouldn't get a single Bridge until you have pretty much no hands with no Smithies in them. Mine is horrible in this game, it's hardly any better than a Curse in your deck (well, it's not worth -1 VP but that's literally the only difference, this isn't a joke, not even an exaggeration) and it's a wasted opportunity to buy a Smithy. With KC/Bridge, it's usually the case that you don't have to buy a single green card until you can buy all of the Provinces in a single turn. It's not as much true in 3P games since you might not have enough +buys for 12 Provinces, and three pile endings might make you want to green earlier, but as long as the game isn't about to end, like, before your next turn, don't buy green cards. When you play Cellar, you should generally discard all of the cards that aren't Smithies, King's Courts, Fishing Villages, Bridges or Cellars, and depending on the situation, you might want to discard FVs, Bridges and Cellars too. In general, anything that doesn't help you draw more cards or connect your KCs and Bridges is a bad card and you want to get rid of it, and you should also take into account reshuffles (usually you don't want to discard more cards than there are in your draw pile).

In the 3p game, on turn 9, you buy a Smithy and a Bridge, when you could have bought a KC. It's true that you have way too few Smithies in your deck at this point, but I think the KC is still more important. On turn 11, you KC a Fishing Village right before your shuffle; this is a bad idea because then your KC will miss the reshuffle and you don't really need all of those actions anyway. On turn 12, you Ironworks a Gold which is bad because you don't want junk in your deck, and then you KC a Mine which is also bad because Mine doesn't do anything useful so it's a wasted opportunity to KC a Bridge or an Ironworks instead.

I don't have anything in particular to say about the other game, but the same principles apply.


I spent a small amount of time searching for a good example game of KC/Bridge, and this is the best one I found: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140207/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1391792021068.txt

Here, SCSN buys one Bridge early because he has $4 and it's the only useful card at that price. However, he then focuses on building the engine and doesn't buy any more Bridges until turn 10, when he can already draw most of his deck, and expect to KC the Bridges he bought. It then takes him only one more turn building a bit more, one dead turn and one last turn to end the game in a victory. This is pretty much what a typical KC/Bridge game looks like, you should try to do the same thing in your KC/Bridge games.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 10:51:07 am by Awaclus »
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2014, 11:29:05 pm »
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While I appreciate the feedback, I have two concerns.

1. Mine useless here? Really?? I can see why you'd avoid it when there's stronger trashing, but this board only has Mine and Expand - meaning there's no way to get those ten starter cards out for good. Between the two I always go with Mine, since it gives immediate benefit and is killer when paired with KC or KC/Bridge. Plus, since as I said there's no way to get rid of the starting ten, I'd rather be able to get some good use out of those coppers than leave them lying around.

2. This might be the fear of dead draw talking, but I don't see the point of loading up on Smithies before other things, especially FVs. I might consider it if there were stronger trashing on the board, but once again, no opportunity to ditch the starting ten. So if I go for Smithies, either my opponent will do the same and I'll end up with 5ish, meaning I'll have a really hard time drawing my deck anyway, or I'll get a lot of them and meanwhile my opponent will get a massive lead on the FishVills, setting me up for death by terminal collision. Surely FishVills should be the priority? Also Bridges can provide a useful +Buy that can enable winning the necessary action card splits more quickly...

I dunno, I'd need to see those strategies for this board in action before I stop taking them with a grain of naïve salt. Would anybody be willing to play this board with me on unrated so I can see what it's like on "expert level"?
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2014, 12:05:49 am »
+1

1.  As much as we love trashing and it is THE thing to do on almost every board.  However, on this board, you are best leaving those starting 10 lying around like the dead junk cards they are.  That is why everyone has mentioned smithy - you need the draw to get through all that junk.  Think about it.  KC-smithy draws 9 cards.  You should always be able to have a FV out, so you will never draw a smithy dead. 

2.  Which is why IW is the best opening here.  So on T3/T4 when you draw ironworks in your hand (hopefully), you can gain smithy and buy FV (assuming one estate).  Or if you get unlucky you can always gain smithy/buy cellar.  FV is not a priority as much because once you get KC-KC-X your actions stack on top of each other and you actually don't need a ton of +actions to play all the cards you want to.

if you come to outpost in the next 10-15 minutes I will play a game or two of this with you. 
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2014, 12:07:22 am »
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1. Mine doesn't get rid of anything though. It just turns the unwanted coppers into other unwanted cards. Even just bridge would be enough for economy, let alone king's court and bridge.

2. KC also gives you actions, plenty of them. No split really matters here, you just need to connect two KC's and three bridges and the game is over. You should just plan your deck with that in mind. It's a race to getting to that point.

Are you available now? I can play this with you.

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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2014, 12:13:30 am »
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I dunno, I'd need to see those strategies for this board in action before I stop taking them with a grain of naïve salt. Would anybody be willing to play this board with me on unrated so I can see what it's like on "expert level"?

I tried it once against Villager Bot. Here is the log where I empty the (remaining 7) provinces on turn 10. http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20141120/log.516ce511e4b082c74d7a526a.1416546583315.txt

I only get 3 of the Fishing Villages, but it doesn't matter because King's Court is a good replacement for Fishing Villages. In addition, I gain my first Bridge with Ironworks on the same turn that I buy my first KC. Admittedly, I had great draws, but this shows the speed of a draw-focused strategy on this board.
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2014, 12:34:30 am »
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Oooookay, I think I'm getting this. I was stuck on the how-the-heck-would-I-get-a-KC-if-all-I-have-are-seven-coppers factor and I also missed the Ironworks-Province trick thing. Although I do really want to know how it would play out with mirror matching.

I'm in Outpost if anyone's still available. Someone else's gotta make the game though because I still don't have all the sets.
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2014, 04:12:15 pm »
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While I appreciate the feedback, I have two concerns.

1. Mine useless here? Really?? I can see why you'd avoid it when there's stronger trashing, but this board only has Mine and Expand - meaning there's no way to get those ten starter cards out for good. Between the two I always go with Mine, since it gives immediate benefit and is killer when paired with KC or KC/Bridge. Plus, since as I said there's no way to get rid of the starting ten, I'd rather be able to get some good use out of those coppers than leave them lying around.

2. This might be the fear of dead draw talking, but I don't see the point of loading up on Smithies before other things, especially FVs. I might consider it if there were stronger trashing on the board, but once again, no opportunity to ditch the starting ten. So if I go for Smithies, either my opponent will do the same and I'll end up with 5ish, meaning I'll have a really hard time drawing my deck anyway, or I'll get a lot of them and meanwhile my opponent will get a massive lead on the FishVills, setting me up for death by terminal collision. Surely FishVills should be the priority? Also Bridges can provide a useful +Buy that can enable winning the necessary action card splits more quickly...

I dunno, I'd need to see those strategies for this board in action before I stop taking them with a grain of naïve salt. Would anybody be willing to play this board with me on unrated so I can see what it's like on "expert level"?

The "Mine is useless here" => "Mine is useless here?!" surprise should be much much much more in the form "Mine is useful here" => "Mine is USEFUL?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!"
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2014, 11:17:47 pm »
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Mine does not behave like a trasher.  It turns your treasures into better treasures, so it's more like a gainer than a trasher.

Every time you play Mine, you're increasing the value of the treasure by $1, so if you can play it very often, it adds up.  If you're drawing your deck every turn and playing Mine, you're increasing your buying power every turn.  For this reason, the best use for mine is in engines (engines using treasure for payload), which means Mine actually gets better when there's good trashing (because trashing makes it easier to draw your deck and make use of the Mine). 

However, Mine is really weak, and I think most beginning players would do well to just avoid it entirely.  I mean, yeah, platinum makes Mine better as going from gold to platinum is huge, but certainly here Mine is just 100000 times worse than smithy or bridge.
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 12:49:37 am »
+4

(Wall of text alert)

1. Mine useless here? Really?? I can see why you'd avoid it when there's stronger trashing, but this board only has Mine and Expand - meaning there's no way to get those ten starter cards out for good. Between the two I always go with Mine, since it gives immediate benefit and is killer when paired with KC or KC/Bridge. Plus, since as I said there's no way to get rid of the starting ten, I'd rather be able to get some good use out of those coppers than leave them lying around.
One of the organizing concepts of Dominion strategy is payload.  Payload is the thing that gets you points.  In a typical smithy/money deck, treasure is the payload, and smithy helps you get your payload cards in hand.  The reason this concept is so useful is that it helps you pick which cards you want in your deck.  Here, your payload is KC/bridge.  Your only goal should be to put KC and bridge together.  Mine doesn't really help you with that.

Your 10 starting cards are junk, and anything you can do to get rid of them is great, and Mine is kinda-sorta doing that, but why are you getting rid of them?  What's your goal?  Here, your goal should be to connect KC and Bridge, and for that purpose, platinum is hardly better than copper.  Mine doesn't thin, it improves treasures, but you don't care about treasure, so Mine is irrelevant.

So you have to keep the payload in mind when you're evaluating what cards you want in your deck.  Here's how I'd evaluate this board.

Adam's rubrick is pretty good.  Look for attacks.  no attacks.  Trashing?  no trashing (Mine doesn't count!).  Village?  Yes, you've got FV and KC (which counts as a village).  Draw? yes, smithy.  Buys and gains?  Bridge and IW.  So there's definitely an engine here. 

Given plenty of buys and gains, plenty of +actions, plenty of draw, there's enough for an engine, although it might not be fast enough to beat money without a good payload.  Well, colonies kind of rule out BM as an option, but still, there's the question of payload.

Platinum is good, and Mine helps you get there.  But, hoo boy, KC-Bridge.  If you can put KC/KC/Br/Br/Br together, you're pretty much assured of winning, and probably you can end the game with a win on the turn where you make that connection (end-game control is another organizing concept).  KC/Mine into platinum can be strong, but KC-Bridge just blows it out of the water.

So you know where you want your deck to go (connecting KC and bridge).  Now you want to see how best to get there.  Putting key cards together means thinning and/or drawing so that you're holding most of your deck together all at once.  There's no thinning here (Mine is not a trasher!), so getting your draw up is really important.  But drawing isn't the only thing you need.  I mean, you need KC, and that's expensive, so you need some source of economy.  However, Smithy puts copper in your hand, and FV by itself produces nearly as much coin as silver, so you shouldn't have too much trouble getting to $7.

So, you want to get your draw up, what gets you there the fastest?  To obtain multiple cheap components, typically you want money and buys.  If you play one bridge and buy two cards, the bridge is effectively a terminal gold with a buy.  Ironworks, however, is effectively non-terminal $4 with a buy, so that's way better, although multiple bridge plays change that calculus considerably.  You might even want two IW.

So the basic progression is IW/FV opener, aiming for Smithies and a few FV, then KC's and bridges (probably don't get bridges until after you've got a KC). 

Let's consider Mine how mine would fit in.  Your payload is KC-bridge, and Mine does improve your economy, which helps you get your components.  But IW gets you those components directly.  I talked above about how Mine's effect is cumulative, but, yno, it's a deck builder, so all gainers are cumulative.  The smithies and stuff you gain from IW will have a much more dramatic cumulative effect than the slow increase in treasure value Mine provides.

Mine improves your treasures, but that never helps you.  Your early economy and late economy will never rely on treasure, so Mine is right out.

To get you thinking about payload, here are some other examples: in the "First Game" engine ( http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/07/30/building-the-first-game-engine/ ), treasure is the payload with remodel providing a supplemental payload (remodeling gold).  You can also build a deck around Horn of Plenty as a payload (aiming for one explosive turn where you draw all/most of your deck, play many horns, gaining provinces).  Bishop is a non-standard payload because you gain points by means other than gaining victory cards.  Usually, your payload will also help you build your deck up before greening, with Bishop being an exception.

Quote
2. This might be the fear of dead draw talking, but I don't see the point of loading up on Smithies before other things, especially FVs. I might consider it if there were stronger trashing on the board, but once again, no opportunity to ditch the starting ten.

FV is just amazing in helping your terminal draw.  You really don't need that many in order to get your draw up and running early, and later, KC provides +action.  The FV split can be important in many games, especially terminal draw engines with poor trashing, but when there are multiple sources of +action, the village split becomes less important, and you should start to think of KC as a source of +action.

One of the observations about throne room is that it hides a +action in there.  It serves not only as a copy of the doubled card, but it provides the action to play the copy.  I mean, TR+smithy is a lot like village+smithy+smithy.  By the same token KC effectively provides +2 actions.

So you need villages early, before you've got KC's, but if you have one FV held over from last turn, KC+Smithy in your starting hand pretty much guarantees you won't run out of actions.

Smithy is super important to this deck, way more than the FV because KC provides the functionality of +action later on. 
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2014, 02:21:33 am »
0

Okay, so, all of this pretty much makes sense. I'm still irrationally hesitant about terminal draws but... yeah.

I did try taking this advice in a game against Snute today (which I streamed at 42:15 - please don't watch the other game because it contains a case of me being extremely stupid). I'm pretty happy with it, although I didn't get to piledrive like I wanted to.
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2014, 06:18:32 am »
0

Okay, so, all of this pretty much makes sense. I'm still irrationally hesitant about terminal draws but... yeah.

I did try taking this advice in a game against Snute today (which I streamed at 42:15 - please don't watch the other game because it contains a case of me being extremely stupid). I'm pretty happy with it, although I didn't get to piledrive like I wanted to.

While it's true that you should gain a lot of Smithies early, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't also gain Fishing Villages. On turns 3 and 4, you pretty much want to gain a Smithy whenever you can and a Fishing Village when you can't, but after that, you should sometimes gain Fishing Villages even if you could gain a Smithy, so that you will usually have enough Actions to play your Smithies. I think getting a third Fishing Village before your third Smithy is good, and getting the fourth Fishing Village before your fifth Smithy, but this might not be optimal, it's just a feeling I have.

And pay more attention to the order you play your cards in. If you've played a card, you can't unplay it, so don't play cards that you could play later — play one Fishing Village before a Smithy if you don't have +actions, but don't play two Fishing Villages before a Smithy because you don't need the +action yet, and the information you get from the drawn cards might make you want to not play the Fishing Village (for example, if you have 3 cards left in your deck and no Smithy in hand, you don't want to play a Fishing Village unless it's your 7th coin, because then it doesn't miss the reshuffle). If you have 92384659800 actions remaining, then it's good to play Smithies before KC/Smithies, because the cards you draw might make you want to KC something else instead, but if you have only 2 actions remaining, it's good to play KC/Smithies before Smithies, because that gives you a higher chance of finding more KCs and Fishing Villages, which you will need to keep your engine running.
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2014, 01:21:54 pm »
+1

While it's true that you should gain a lot of Smithies early, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't also gain Fishing Villages. On turns 3 and 4, you pretty much want to gain a Smithy whenever you can and a Fishing Village when you can't, but after that, you should sometimes gain Fishing Villages even if you could gain a Smithy, so that you will usually have enough Actions to play your Smithies. I think getting a third Fishing Village before your third Smithy is good, and getting the fourth Fishing Village before your fifth Smithy, but this might not be optimal, it's just a feeling I have.

I disagree here. You will eventually have KC as a splitter along with FV, so FVs are not THAT good, because you want to KC Smitty for draw and Bridge for "money", not FV. I would buy no more than three FVs, and probably no more after I have two KCs. However, having a Smitty in hand in every turn is really important later, and once you start getting KCs and Bridges, it will not be easy to do, so the Smitty split may very well be the most important part of this game (together with the Bridge split, but I see it likely that Bridges will run out closely or simultaneously to the game ending).
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2014, 02:10:52 am »
0

Okay, so, all of this pretty much makes sense. I'm still irrationally hesitant about terminal draws but... yeah.

I did try taking this advice in a game against Snute today (which I streamed at 42:15 - please don't watch the other game because it contains a case of me being extremely stupid). I'm pretty happy with it, although I didn't get to piledrive like I wanted to.

your play seems more or less correct except i'd probably get a third FV before a fourth smithy.
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Re: Dominion Juniors play KC/Bridge/engine
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2014, 10:12:50 pm »
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I've been mentoring a friend in Dominion whenever we can play for a few months and I used this kingdom tonight to teach him some principles. He found it to be an excellent learning kingdom.
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