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[love]

Hey guys, I wrote a bit about a log from Hiroki vs goko took my $. I can imagine that I missed (or just get wrong) a million tactical, strategical and orthographical issues when I worte this. In fact I did not even finish the whole game because it was too long for me. Also there this post lacks in structure, but this is just the way my brain works- not structured :/ But I already spent so much time writing this so if I do not post it now, I will never post it. But I want to post it because it is fun^^. Do not hesitate to write your thoughts on it even if its just a small part of text you want to comment on. I appreciate your thoughts on it.


Hiroki vs goko took my $:
The log: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20141110/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1415684325226.txt

Code: [Select]

Haven, Great Hall, Bishop, Death Cart, Noble Brigand, Worker's Village, Embassy, Haggler, Ill-Gotten Gains, Hunting Grounds
I see three strategies: Embassy big money (I think is ruled out by the Colonies), IGG rush and engine.

Thoughts to some cards:

Bishop:  Engine: Bishop is weakened by the shelters and improved by Hunting Grounds. However if the opponent goes for an engine approach Bishop can really backfire when played in the Endgame and giving the opponent opportunity to trash Hunting Grounds. And Bishop helps your opponent out thinning his deck. 1-2 Bishops are desirable depending how many IGG your opponent is to buy. When thinking about the number of Bishops you want in your deck you should consider the number of IGG and Hunting Grounds in your opponents deck. While IGG encourages Bishop buys Hunting Ground should discourage them. Probably engine is the strongest approach because it is less commital than an IGG rush, because it can still grab an IGG or two whenever it desires.
IGG rush: In the Endgame I hate Bishop and 4 Coppers in hand, because I can not buy a Duchy :/
Is IGG countered by Bishops?

Death Cart: Death Cart is strictly improved by shelters and Hunting Grounds.

Haggler: Haggler is improved by Colonies and Platins.


Not game related thoughts that just came to mind while studying the log: I think really strong players have a decision process similar to chess professionals looking at „candidate“ buys and then imagining scenarios how the pile splits will end up. I think some questions of Dominion can not be solved by logic. Sometimes extensive simulation from the current state of the game is needed to find out whether a decision was right or wrong.

Hiroki vs goko took my $:

Opening: Something keeps Hiroki from buying a Bishop in the opening, whereas gtm$ buys a Bishop. They have a different assesment when to buy the bishop on this board.

Pre-greening: Turn 3: Buying Workers Village Hiroki reveals his intention to go for an engine and he adresses the fact that Workers Village is the only Village on this board and having a majority (6-4) maybe a big advantage. I think if there was a second Village type of card another Silver would be nice as well, since Embassy and Hunting Grounds are strong drawers and encourage a higher number of treasures for engines.
After that both players get Haggler,  a key card on this board. Is a second or even a third Haggler desirable?

Turn 5 gtm$: 4$: He gets rid of his Hovel. Was Workers Village the stronger purchase?

Turn 6: Hiroki has 5$ and still goes for Workers Village. He really wants a healthy share of the Workers Village pile I guess. Embassy was probably weaker here, because Embassy is not the only way to improve the hand size and gives the opponent Silver which is good for him because the strong drawers encourage a higher number of treasures than usually found in engines.
Turn 6 gtm$: 6$ Hunting Grounds because he has an engines approach and IGG because Hiroki has no Bishop, yet. Understandable choices. Is gtm$ already behind?

Turn 7 Hiroki: Hiroki buys a Platin. (Would he also have bought that Platin when there is no Haggler?) and he gains Hunting Grounds. He already has 2 more Workers Villages than gtm$ so he can afford not grab one here?
Turn 7 gtm$: gtm$ is fighting  Buying Hunting Grounds and gaining IGG from Haggler. I ask myself: Was a Workers Village preferable instead of IGG.

Turn 8 Hiroki: Hiroki buys Platin and gets his Bishop through Haggler. Was the Bishop necessary? Would it be stronger to just go for another Hunting Grounds? If Hiroki remains with no Bishop maybe the accumulation of VP tokens by gtm$ Bishop gets inconvenient.

Turn 8 gtm$: Another Hunting Ground + IGG. I think there is a strategy shift by gtm$ because he gives up on the Workers Village pile entirely. He is looking for an advantage by cursing his opponent and maybe tactical trash some Hunting Grounds later. However Hiroki has this ability as well. Probably Hiroki has already a strong lead.

Turn 9: gtm$ is commited to IGG and Hiroki to his engine approach.

Turn 10 gtm$: Is grabing a Workers Village. Considering his emphasis on IGG does Workers Village still fit into his strategy?

This is the end. I am running out of time :/ And I know that I will not have the discipline to complete this iteratively. My apologies to you

[Awaclus]

For hiroki, buying a lot of Worker's Villages early has also a lot to do with the fact that if he doesn't draw one with his Hunting Grounds, then he will draw a lot of dead Actions. But if he has it, then he can potentially play a Haggler after the Hunting Grounds which is super good, and when he has lots of villages in his deck, he can get Hunting Grounds whenever he has the money without having to worry about too many terminals in his deck. IGG over WV wouldn't have been super useful, because it junks both you and your opponent, and in this game, the IGG isn't that much more useful than the Curse and you have to spend a buy or a gain getting it. Haggler over WV would've beaten the purpose because then you would have drawn dead Hagglers with Hunting Grounds. Silver over WV would have been pretty bad too, because you don't really need the $ from the Silver when you already have one and a Haggler.

I think that Goko Took my $ already lost when he didn't open Great Hall. Then he lost some more when he went for IGG. Those are the major mistakes he did, and they are what resulted in his deck being slow in the early game compared to hiroki's, and eventually losing the Worker's Village split very badly.

[love]

Because I have to distract me at the moment
I finished the commentary on the log.
Maybe one day it can become an annoted game.
I once dreamed about a future
where Dominion Clubs were as usual as
Chess Clubs and every year
there is World Dominion Championship match
just like in chess. I heard Magnus Carlsen
studied  a games collection of the former
world chess champion Wladimir Kramnik in
his youth.
Maybe one day there will be a games collection
of a strong Dominion player with more than just
plain log, but some explanation about his or her
decisions, just like in chess books.
The only problem I can think of is that unlike a Dominion game
played online, a live Dominion
game played with ordinary cards is difficult to log^^



I want to change my statement  for gtm$ for turn 10.
WV is a good choiche for the Haggler gain but it is
just too late.
After hirokis 11th turn the WV split is 7-2 in his favour.
Gtm$ can hardly play WV+Hunting Grounds.
(I ask myself, whether on this board you can play an IGG rush with
2-3 Bishops. Because after the IGG+Curse piles are gone buying
Duchies and trashing IGGs with Bishop sets the opponent under
pressure. Probably the (engine) opponent has to get additional Bishops
himself and has to trash some of his valuable cards like Hunting Grounds.
But the fact that he get Duchies when trashing Hunting Grounds
creates doubts inside of me.
I change my mind. IGG rush is not the way to go here^^)
On turn 12 hiroki has another strong turn buying lots of engine
components and an additional Bishop probably adapting to
gtm$ numerous IGG buys.
Gtm$ continues to buy IGG and gain Bishops. This is similar to
what I wrote above and probably can not prevent him from losing,
but what card purchases at this stage of the game can? So it is
difficult to give good advice to gtm$ because of his difficult
position (lost WV split 2-8 with WV being the only village,
can not play his Hunting Grounds efficiently).
Greening: On turn 13 hiroki and gtm$ both grab their first Colony.
But on turn 14 only hiroki is to repeat to buy a Colony.
On turn 15 another 2 Colonies and a Province for hiroki and 2
Great Halls for gtm$. I am sure both players were aware of the
outcome of the game several turns before and just play it to an end.
Last turn: Turn 17
Final Score: 75(hiroki) - 35(gtm$)

[luser]

Here I think that IGG rush is best strategy. Of course one must open silver/silver or silver/great hall, bishop is terrible in igg rush. I am not sure about winning procentage, perhaps one could try solo games. A engine/igg game will be decided early if engine player could get early platinum or not. Without that it would be too slow, as it needs to buy 5+ components with lot of curses in deck and vp lead before igg and worker villages run out, which is early as one could get igg+ww with haggler.

I am not sure about haggler and igg timing, as cursing needs to be done early to be effective, perhaps one igg, then haggler, then igg?

[dondon151]

If this is a Colony game, IGG rush is probably not the best strategy.