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Author Topic: Playing cards from discard pile ?  (Read 3349 times)

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simval

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Playing cards from discard pile ?
« on: November 15, 2014, 03:42:47 pm »
+3

Hi !

It's been a while since I posted in this forum : I had presented myself and posted a bit but only lurked for a couple of months after. However, me and my dad started playing Dominion like crazy this month and it got me back to designing fan cards. I had this idea for a card, but I'm not sure if it would be balanced :

Quote
Forest Village
4$ - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Play a card from your discard pile.

I'm making this fan extension and one of the theme is going to be ''interactions with your piles'', either the deck or the discard pile. I think this form of Village is extremely interesting, since it's like a normal Village but you came aim to play certain actions.

However, it might be too good if you manage to have something like torturer in your discard pile every turn. What do you think ? Should it be nerfed ?
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silverspawn

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2014, 03:50:32 pm »
0

I have this card in my collection post:

Quote
c4 - Action - ?
+1 Action
Choose one: +1 Card; or look through your discard pile, and put a card from it into your hand.

if no Action cards are in your discard pile, they are identical; if there is one, your card has +1 card, +1 action more and is otherwise identical

so, yea I think it's too powerful. But there are two more problems. one, it's not clear if you are allowed to look through your discard pile, two, it's not clear if you are allowed to play treasure/victory cards with this.
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simval

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2014, 04:08:41 pm »
0

[...] So, yea I think it's too powerful. But there are two more problems. one, it's not clear if you are allowed to look through your discard pile, two, it's not clear if you are allowed to play treasure/victory cards with this.

You are right concerning the two problems, but that is easy to fix, it's just that I forgot to clarify it. My main goal here is really to create a Village that has an interaction with your discard pile ; a village which works better if you know manage to play it when you know there is something good in your discard pile. Should it be a 5$-cost ?

Something like...

Quote
Forest Village
5$ - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look trough your discar pile, you may immediately play an action card from it.

Is that interesting ? At 5$ it competes with strong terminals like Witch or Torturer, so maybe that would keep it in check ?

PS : I feel like your card is not really good. It's pretty much a cantrip that can, sometimes, draw exactly what you want. That's more a 3$ in my book (it's like a better version of Wishing Well, which isn't that strong), but I'm not sure.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 04:10:20 pm by simval »
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Asper

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2014, 04:32:54 pm »
+1

I think the card needs a lot of testing and balancing, and you might arrive at something alltogether new in the end, but i believe it's an interesting design space not even covered by existing cards :-)

Awaclus

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2014, 04:35:49 pm »
0

PS : I feel like your card is not really good. It's pretty much a cantrip that can, sometimes, draw exactly what you want. That's more a 3$ in my book (it's like a better version of Wishing Well, which isn't that strong), but I'm not sure.
Wishing Well is strong and completely different, it's a lab which sometimes is just a cantrip. c4 never increases your hand size, but it lets you play the strong cards in your deck more often per shuffle, which means it's comparable to Scheme, Throne Room, Scavenger and arguably Sage. It needs to cost $4 because you don't want to enable a Sea Hag*/c4 opening, which would be very strong when it works out and not very impressive when it doesn't, and pretty often the correct play.

*or Marauder, Young Witch, Jack of all Trades etc
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silverspawn

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2014, 04:37:51 pm »
+1

well, I have an issue with cards that interact with the discard pile, and your card is no exception: you often don't have a discard pile. likewise, you often can't influence whether or not you have one. It just depends on the state of your current deck. Also, if you have an engine that draws your whole deck, you never have cards in your discard pile, unless there are sifters. that's why my version gives a consolation +card if it can't find anything -> less swingy.

that said, your card is definitely better priced at 5$ than at 3/4$. You could try it. It's probably fine power wise, although rather weak, but that's okay. I just can't help thinking that it'll be like "hey, I have Forest village... uh, my discard pile is empty. Okay, so I have a cantrip."

Herald is actually similar to this version, because they're both either +1 card, +1 action or +2 cards, +2 actions. but herald is cheaper which makes it less swingy, and more importantly, you can improve the chance that it hits, by increasing the action density in your deck. playing for having a discard pile though... doesn't really work. I guess if you have a really big deck, but then that contradicts with the idea of an engine card.

so yea, these are my problems with the concept, and that's why I never ended up doing anything like that. But you can still try it.
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silverspawn

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2014, 04:40:35 pm »
0

I think the card needs a lot of testing and balancing, and you might arrive at something alltogether new in the end, but i believe it's an interesting design space not even covered by existing cards :-)

it is covered though. counting house looks through your discard pile and takes coppers. and what do you want for counting house to be strong? a huge deck. the key here is that counting house isn't an engine card, that's why it works.

of course, Counting house has its own flaws in being too weak, but you get the idea.
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simval

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2014, 04:50:00 pm »
0

Thanks for all your replies. This is all very helpful information !

@Awaclus : Thanks for the analysis. It is a very different card you are right.

@Silverspwan : True, that's another problem. Maybe giving Forest Village the ability to discard something might help this ? I still think it could be really strong. Consider the following :

T5 I play Torturer
T6 Forest Village, which plays my Torturer from the discard, then plays another Torturer.
T7 Forest Village, which plays Forest Village from my discard, which plays a Torturer from my discard. (Re-shuffle, draw a Torturer). With the 2 actions I have, I play 2 other Torturers.

Isn't that extremely strong ? But making it a 5$ action might help.... Hm. Ok, let's try :

Quote
Forest Village
5$ - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card. Look trough your discard pile, you may immediately play an action card from it.

That might work... I should playtest it. Do you see any big problem ? If not I'll try it like this.
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Awaclus

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2014, 04:57:25 pm »
+1

the key here is that counting house isn't an engine card
Counting House is an engine card.

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pacovf

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2014, 04:58:22 pm »
+1

Thanks for all your replies. This is all very helpful information !

@Awaclus : Thanks for the analysis. It is a very different card you are right.

@Silverspwan : True, that's another problem. Maybe giving Forest Village the ability to discard something might help this ? I still think it could be really strong. Consider the following :

T5 I play Torturer
T6 Forest Village, which plays my Torturer from the discard, then plays another Torturer.
T7 Forest Village, which plays Forest Village from my discard, which plays a Torturer from my discard. (Re-shuffle, draw a Torturer). With the 2 actions I have, I play 2 other Torturers.

Isn't that extremely strong ? But making it a 5$ action might help.... Hm. Ok, let's try :

Quote
Forest Village
5$ - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card. Look trough your discard pile, you may immediately play an action card from it.

That might work... I should playtest it. Do you see any big problem ? If not I'll try it like this.

Considering the comparison with herald, I would make the discarding compulsory. I think it would still be a strong village at 4$.
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silverspawn

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2014, 05:06:06 pm »
0

Quote
@silverspwan : True, that's another problem. Maybe giving Forest Village the ability to discard something might help this ? I still think it could be really strong. Consider the following :

T5 I play Torturer
T6 Forest Village, which plays my Torturer from the discard, then plays another Torturer.
T7 Forest Village, which plays Forest Village from my discard, which plays a Torturer from my discard. (Re-shuffle, draw a Torturer). With the 2 actions I have, I play 2 other Torturers.

Isn't that extremely strong ? But making it a 5$ action might help.... Hm. Ok, let's try :

uh, it's not a powerlevel issue. Maybe I didn't make my point clear. The problem is, your card wants your deck to be in a certain state in order to "activate", but you can't make your deck be in that state.

Herald says: gain a deck with lots of action cards. If you do that, you get +2 cards, +2 actions. if you don't, you get +1 card, +1 action
Menagerie says: gain a deck with lots of differently named cards. If you do that, you get +3 cards, +1 action. If you don't, you get +1 card, +1 action
City says: empty a pile. If you do that, you get +2 cards, +2 actions. If you don't, you get +1 card, +2 actions
Forest Village says: have a discard pile. If you do that, you get +2 cards, +2 actions. If you don't, you get +1 card, +1 action.

There are probably more cards that could be in the that list, like conspirator. But the point is, all of these give you some kind of thing to do with your deck that you can do. Forest village... not really. normallly, the only way increase the chance of having a discard pile is to have a huge deck, which is not what you want for an engine.

your new version doesn't address this issue, it just gives you +1 action if it doesn't work (because you just discard the action card that you want to play). the old version was a cantrip or a boomtown, the new one is a village or a boomtown. That makes it stronger and less swingy, but it doesn't change the problem.

so, tl;dr: i fear that these kinds of cards will look very similar to something like this:
Quote
+1 card
+1 action
flip a coin. if it lands heads up, +1 card, +1 action.

but again, you can try it. maybe it's fun regardless.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2014, 05:17:35 pm »
+2

Quote
Forest Village
5$ - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card. Look trough your discard pile, you may immediately play an action card from it.

I think this is worth trying. I recommend this phrasing:

Quote
Forest Village
5$ - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look trough your discard pile. You may play an Action card from your discard pile or hand.
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dondon151

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2014, 05:49:59 pm »
0

There are probably more cards that could be in the that list, like conspirator. But the point is, all of these give you some kind of thing to do with your deck that you can do. Forest village... not really. normallly, the only way increase the chance of having a discard pile is to have a huge deck, which is not what you want for an engine.

But there are combos, like Warehouse, Cellar, Storeroom, Embassy, Horse Traders, Cartographer, etc.

It's still not incredibly consistent, but there are plenty of cards that discard other cards.
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Hydrad

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2014, 05:54:01 pm »
0

suddenly chancellor becomes amazing!

actually it wouldn't do anything would it... as the +1card would trigger the resuffle right away. Hmm ya I have no idea how to judge this card
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simval

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2014, 07:22:32 pm »
+1

@Silverspawn : Yeah, sorry my post came out weirdly. I totally got your point about the fact that having a discard pile is not reliable, but was wondering about the power level at the same time, so it got mixed up. Your post was helpful, though.

If we compare it to Herald, at first both seem to have the same problem : if you don't have a discard pile when you buy herald, you can't use its top-deck power. However, even if you don't have a discard this turn, if you play an Herald, there's a chance that you'll pick an Action card on top of your deck anyways. So there's a way to get that +2 Cards +2 Actions.

Now Forest Village... Like you said, sometimes you just won't have a discard pile, especially because if you have an engine which can draw your whole deck, it's all gonna be in your hand. The obvious way to solve this is to be able to discard some cards, in which way you get +1 Card +2 Action - you play the action card you discarded, you pick a card and +1 Action too. The power comes from the fact that you can choose exactly which Action card you're going to play.

We're getting something here, I think : Forest Village looks bad with an engine that can pick your entire deck, but it's actually pretty good, since you'll make sure that, even when you start greening and you can't draw your whole deck, if you have a way to sift (Storeroom, Cellar, Warehouse...), you'll probably be able to play exactly the Actions you want to play.

So it's definitely not ''flip a coin, hope you're lucky''. However, I'll keep your opinion in head while playtesting it, just to make sure (after all you're more experienced than me).

@LastFootnote : Yeah, good idea. If we make the discarding optional, playing it from your hand or the discard is pretty much the same. However, I think I'll try pacovf's idea of making the discarding compulsory, in which case that doesn't work (if you have no Actions in hand other than this, you still need to discard a Treasure or something).

@pacovf : Excellent idea, I'll try this.

Ok so I now have two versions. One at 4$ and one at 5$.

Quote
Forest Village
4$ - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard a card. Look trough your discard pile, you may immediately play an action card from it.

Quote
Forest Village
5$ - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Look trough your discard pile. You may play an Action card from your discard pile or hand.

I feel like the first one will be extremely powerful with Torturers or cards like that, but the compulsory discarding might be just annoying enough in the early game to balance it. The second one solves this by competing with strong attacks at 5$.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2014, 12:45:18 am »
0

I have a similar card in my collection of fan cards:

Quote
Traveller's Village
$4 - Action
+2 Actions.
Look through your discard pile and put an action card from it into your hand. If there are no actions cards in your discards, reveal your discards, then +1 card and discard a card.
(based on Nomadic Village by andwilk)
I think I prefer the mechanics of +2 actions and taking an action card from your discard pile, rather than being a cantrip that plays an action card from your discards. On the other hand, Forest Village is better because it's simpler (because all it needs is two words "or hand" to keep the card from whiffing if you have no discard pile).

Vislor

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 07:51:21 am »
0

I think I would make it a scavenger variant....ie:

$4 +2 actions - You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put one card into your hand.
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simval

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Re: Playing cards from discard pile ?
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2014, 12:20:42 am »
+1

That's interesting, but I think it's too powerful. That's basically "pick any card from your deck, play it", which is awesome. Pair a bunch of those with a strong curser or trasher and you can ruin your opponent. See the thread on "pseudo Demonic Tutor : Hound", because it looks a lot like that, but as a village.

It's like a sage, but without the disadvantage of tripping on silvers and Victory cards. However, I think that the idea of combining it with scavenger or chancellor is really good. Right now, with the +1 card, it is not possible though, and you'd still need a village before so you can play your scavenger/chancellor AND Forest Village.

Maybe making it "+2 actions ; you may draw a card. Look through your discard..." That could be cool.
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