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[Witherweaver]

I am not as good at FE as dondon (I know this for a fact) but I can illuminate a little bit:

Marcus's base stats (among other prepromos/newbie traps) are high enough that he can in fact carry you through a lot of the game or take out problem units while your 'good' characters gain experience.  The key is in moderation there.  One strategy you could use is to strip Marcus and use him as a meat shield.  He will last a surprising amount of time this way, far past what the developers probably intended.  This makes him considerably stronger than Jeigan-type characters in previous Fire Emblem games, and that trend would continue in future Fire Emblem games. (Seth is a legitimately strong character in 8, Titania is good in 9, etc)

In higher level play like low-turn runs and challenges, Marcus's early ability to move huge numbers of turns and capture guests among other weak units also makes him invaluable.  You can send him with a weapon to get hard-to-collect characters and items, too. 

It's also quite possible to just use him in your main team throughout the entire game.  Sure, he's weaker than Kain/Sent/Lowen in the end, but the early parts of the game were the actual hard part.  Everyone is good once they're promoted.  This is true in a lot of RPGs!   Take FF1.  The reason Thief is such a bad class in spite of Ninja being mostly better than Red Wizard is that the actual hard part of the game was the start, where you were stuck with the Thief.

Black Belt -> Master Monk is the better example I think

[Titandrake]

I got stuck on the final boss of Paper Mario: TTYD for a long time, but I did beat it eventually.

There's a couple games I stopped playing because I wasn't hooked fast enough (Disgaea, FFT). I'm sure they're good, but I didn't want to look up game mechanics, which meant there were so many things I could do that I ended up choosing very few of them.

I haven't beaten A Link to the Past yet. If I remember right, I have a save right outside Ganon's tower, with very few upgrades besides the plot-required ones. I don't have the game with me, but I've been meaning to play it.

For games I haven't beaten because of difficulty, Dustforce and SpaceChem. For SpaceChem, I got stuck on one of the defense missions, the one where you have to power up a laser with a crystal. I think end of 5th or 6th set of levels? I recommend watching some of the videos from SpaceChem tournaments (there's one at http://lparchive.org/SpaceChem-2012-Tournament/), they are ridiculously clever. For Dustforce, I'm still actively going through it, but I don't know if I'm going to try to SS all levels or not. The game is still fun, but I'm on the very last set of levels and it's such a big difficulty spike (final level has been SS-ed by ~150 people ever, out of the 100k+ people who have played the game...)

[pacovf]

I am not as good at FE as dondon (I know this for a fact) but I can illuminate a little bit:

Marcus's base stats (among other prepromos/newbie traps) are high enough that he can in fact carry you through a lot of the game or take out problem units while your 'good' characters gain experience.  The key is in moderation there.  One strategy you could use is to strip Marcus and use him as a meat shield.  He will last a surprising amount of time this way, far past what the developers probably intended.  This makes him considerably stronger than Jeigan-type characters in previous Fire Emblem games, and that trend would continue in future Fire Emblem games. (Seth is a legitimately strong character in 8, Titania is good in 9, etc)

In higher level play like low-turn runs and challenges, Marcus's early ability to move huge numbers of turns and capture guests among other weak units also makes him invaluable.  You can send him with a weapon to get hard-to-collect characters and items, too. 

It's also quite possible to just use him in your main team throughout the entire game.  Sure, he's weaker than Kain/Sent/Lowen in the end, but the early parts of the game were the actual hard part.  Everyone is good once they're promoted.  This is true in a lot of RPGs!   Take FF1.  The reason Thief is such a bad class in spite of Ninja being mostly better than Red Wizard is that the actual hard part of the game was the start, where you were stuck with the Thief.

I was just surprised by the claim that they were "the best characters in the game by expert players", because once you've got a working knowledge of the mechanics, you can beat the game with pretty much anyone if you focus, and none of the techniques you mentioned look particularly "expert", but rather the logical conclusion of understanding how xp works. I was using them extensively in my third playthrough (hard, training all my units, no arenas).
I would have phrased it as "they are your most useful early game unit", which is true. There are a lot of time sensitive missions that can't be done without Marcus, and he does carry the whole team by himself until you start reaching the high tens.

Low turn-count challenge does shed some light on what he could mean, though.


No longer Number of the Beast...

[jsh357]

I don't think they are comparable.  Master is significantly better at high levels where his damage is competitive or beats Knight, while if you look at the hard numbers early on, Black Belt doesn't do nearly as much damage as Red Mage or Fighter early on and has no heavy armor to compensate for this.  My conclusion is that the Blackbelt is weak early on and at the end (Unless you grind forever) but strong in the midgame, Red Mage is solid throughout but weak at the very end, and Thief is terrible until near the end of the game.  Thus, Red Mage is the closest Final Fantasy class with a similarity to Marcus.

If you are interested in my reasoning, from examining the difficult portions of the game (Marsh Cave, Earth Cave, Ice Cave, Chaos) it doesn't take much stretching to see who comes out on top at various points.

Black Belt is near useless in the Marsh Cave since his damage is still so low and the Piscodemons have high physical attack power it can't deal with, while Red Mage can tank some shots and use Fire on Creeps.  In fact, BB is basically the same as Thief there since neither is accomplishing too much. 

In the Earth Cave, the Black Belt starts to catch up some in damage, but Thief now has access to weapons obtained from the Magic Key, making him slightly better; he's a Red Mage with no magic.  Red Mage is still above both of them since he has multitarget spells available where you might really need them against Cocatrices and such. 

In the Ice Cave, the danger is mostly enemies that can one-shot you or win on first strikes with MT damage, so any team sucks there anyway.  Seriously.

Finally, against Chaos the Ninja is probably the best overall since it has Haste and can equip good armor.  If you grind out to high levels, Master might beat it, but there's really no need.  Red Wizard does fall behind there since he's basically just a Haste caster/weak attacker at that point in the game.  (Haste is the only valid way of doing mass damage reliably, so it must be considered the most important strategy at that point since Chaos can recover all of his HP at random)

[Witherweaver]

I don't think they are comparable.  Master is significantly better at high levels where his damage is competitive or beats Knight, while if you look at the hard numbers early on, Black Belt doesn't do nearly as much damage as Red Mage or Fighter early on and has no heavy armor to compensate for this.  My conclusion is that the Blackbelt is weak early on and at the end (Unless you grind forever) but strong in the midgame, Red Mage is solid throughout but weak at the very end, and Thief is terrible until near the end of the game.  Thus, Red Mage is the closest Final Fantasy class with a similarity to Marcus.

If you are interested in my reasoning, from examining the difficult portions of the game (Marsh Cave, Earth Cave, Ice Cave, Chaos) it doesn't take much stretching to see who comes out on top at various points.

Black Belt is near useless in the Marsh Cave since his damage is still so low and the Piscodemons have high physical attack power it can't deal with, while Red Mage can tank some shots and use Fire on Creeps.  In fact, BB is basically the same as Thief there since neither is accomplishing too much. 

In the Earth Cave, the Black Belt starts to catch up some in damage, but Thief now has access to weapons obtained from the Magic Key, making him slightly better; he's a Red Mage with no magic.  Red Mage is still above both of them since he has multitarget spells available where you might really need them against Cocatrices and such. 

In the Ice Cave, the danger is mostly enemies that can one-shot you or win on first strikes with MT damage, so any team sucks there anyway.  Seriously.

Finally, against Chaos the Ninja is probably the best overall since it has Haste and can equip good armor.  If you grind out to high levels, Master might beat it, but there's really no need.  Red Wizard does fall behind there since he's basically just a Haste caster/weak attacker at that point in the game.  (Haste is the only valid way of doing mass damage reliably, so it must be considered the most important strategy at that point since Chaos can recover all of his HP at random)

I consider  Master the best class at the end.  I'm sure his damage output with Haste beats Ninja with Katana (I always give Masamune to White Wizard so he can do damage too), but of course he can't Haste himself.  But I guess I always max out my levels.  Level 50 Master Monk is just a damage machine.

[Witherweaver]

I am not as good at FE as dondon (I know this for a fact) but I can illuminate a little bit:

Marcus's base stats (among other prepromos/newbie traps) are high enough that he can in fact carry you through a lot of the game or take out problem units while your 'good' characters gain experience.  The key is in moderation there.  One strategy you could use is to strip Marcus and use him as a meat shield.  He will last a surprising amount of time this way, far past what the developers probably intended.  This makes him considerably stronger than Jeigan-type characters in previous Fire Emblem games, and that trend would continue in future Fire Emblem games. (Seth is a legitimately strong character in 8, Titania is good in 9, etc)

In higher level play like low-turn runs and challenges, Marcus's early ability to move huge numbers of turns and capture guests among other weak units also makes him invaluable.  You can send him with a weapon to get hard-to-collect characters and items, too. 

It's also quite possible to just use him in your main team throughout the entire game.  Sure, he's weaker than Kain/Sent/Lowen in the end, but the early parts of the game were the actual hard part.  Everyone is good once they're promoted.  This is true in a lot of RPGs!   Take FF1.  The reason Thief is such a bad class in spite of Ninja being mostly better than Red Wizard is that the actual hard part of the game was the start, where you were stuck with the Thief.

Black Belt -> Master Monk is the better example I think

And for clarity, I meant Black Belt -> Master Monk is a better example of bad -> awesome than Thief -> Ninja is.  Thief early on is much better than Black Belt because you can at least equip stuff.  Black Belt doesn't start becoming decent until the 20's.*   End game Ninja has good equipment and some spells (well, Haste), but Master Monk does lots of physical damage.

I agree with the point about Red Mage -> Red Wizard.

(If I recall, Master Monk is something like ATK = 2*Level and DEF = Level.. Black Belt's might be different.  I guess I could look it up.  The real difference maker is number of hits I think.. Master Monks hit a lot.. like 10-12 without Haste at high level?)

EDIT: Actually come to think of it, the progression may be identical for Black Belt and Master.. it might only be the level that matters. 

[qmech]

I never "fairly" completed any of the Mega Drive Sonic games.  I did finish the Sonic 3 half of Sonic 3 and Knuckles by collecting all the chaos emeralds as early as possible and rushing through as Super Sonic.

Desert Strike is one of my favourite games ever and reasonably doable once you get the hang of it.  Jungle Strike is not so great, but also seems to be much harder.  I got stuck at the point where you're flying a plane and have to bomb a target with a pillar behind it (don't try and think too much about the logic of that).  Whatever I tried would result in a crash.

[Witherweaver]

So looking around, fun video of Master Monk soloing Chaos:

[blueblimp]

SpaceChem - this is a really fun puzzle game with a unique premise (that's very hard to describe).  It's sort of like programming conveyor belts to combine parts and get a desired result.  Anyway, the game's difficulty ramps up considerably and very quickly.  I made it to the fourth set of stages and could not finish them; I lack the skill to do it.  I love the game, though.  It's one of my favorites.  I'm just bad at it.

Same here, but I think I reached world 5. Maybe 6? I completed the world with the fusion stuff, and it drained me. Absolutely amazing game, and each level you complete makes you feel a surge of adrenaline.
Still, I drown myself trying to find an elegant solution, and the possibilities... so many possibilities... arg.

I would classify it as 2D programming. Everybody ought to try the free demo, your mind will asplode.

I stalled out near the beginning of world 8, when it asks you to build a molecule that literally fills the entire output area. This discussion is making me want to go back and try again though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. This'll probably sound really lame, but I haven't been able to beat the final level of Braid.
I finished every other level--mostly with no help, but I just can't seem to get the timing on the final level right. I always end up destroyed by the wall of fire while waiting for a goomba to move through a narrow passage. *Sigh*

[dondon151]

I was just surprised by the claim that they were "the best characters in the game by expert players", because once you've got a working knowledge of the mechanics, you can beat the game with pretty much anyone if you focus, and none of the techniques you mentioned look particularly "expert", but rather the logical conclusion of understanding how xp works. I was using them extensively in my third playthrough (hard, training all my units, no arenas).
I would have phrased it as "they are your most useful early game unit", which is true. There are a lot of time sensitive missions that can't be done without Marcus, and he does carry the whole team by himself until you start reaching the high tens.

Low turn-count challenge does shed some light on what he could mean, though.

jsh is mostly correct; I can't give a good explanation without a lengthy digression into the philosophy behind ranking units, but I'll leave you with these points:

1. It requires more skill to finish the game in fewer turns, so high level play generally indicates a low turncount. There are fewer ways to complete a game quickly than there are to complete a game slowly.

2. Most enemies in FE7 are actually not that tough. Many units are better than Marcus if they were to be compared at the same level, but these differences don't matter if Marcus has no trouble killing enemies to begin with.

3. Marcus starts good and ends good. Most other units aren't that great to begin with.

If you're beating the game more quickly, then one challenge is to maximize the EXP gain of auxiliary units while preserving a low turncount. Other units tend to not be as good in this setting, but because the enemies aren't that great, either, an expert player doesn't really care. The game can be completed reasonably quickly with no growth rates, as I have done before.

[pacovf]

I was going to argue that Marcus starts very good and ends mediocre, while 80% of the characters start ok and end very good, but then you go and say:

The game can be completed reasonably quickly with no growth rates, as I have done before.

Ok. Yeah. I couldn't even begin to conceive something like that could be attempted, even less so achieved. We are definitely talking a different language here, so I'll just shut up. 

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Surprised to see the number of SpaceChem responses. Did anyone else beat it?

Not trying to brag, I'm just surprised. Everyone else here is so much smarter than I am! (Maybe you have better uses for your time as well )

[jsh357]

Surprised to see the number of SpaceChem responses. Did anyone else beat it?

Not trying to brag, I'm just surprised. Everyone else here is so much smarter than I am! (Maybe you have better uses for your time as well )

Obv. I'm no expert but beating it seems like a pretty impressive achievement on its own.  Unless you cheat or something.

[KingZog3]

Bodycount. But that was because it was so bad that I couldn't handle playing it anymore.

[LastFootnote]

I'd like to believe there aren't many games I couldn't beat, given enough incentive to do so. But there are definitely games that I have given up on due to difficulty. Rather, how fast I give up on a game is a product of difficulty and fun. If a game is really fun, then the difficulty is part of that fun and I'm more likely to beat it. I've beaten and gotten all the achievements for both Prinny games, for instance. A lot of other games I give up on because they're just not fun.

Two games that jump to mind that I would like to have beaten but haven't are Zelda II and the original Mega Man.

[silverspawn]

games I can't beat? as if.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Here's one of mine: Ecco the Dolphin: The Tides of Time. That damn medusa level in the skyway got me every time. I saw most of the game with level select codes but I never made it through legit. Maybe someone else knows what I'm talking about.

[Asper]

games I can't beat? as if.

I am eager to see you complete Tetris.


At least try to sound modest. Like me. It makes my awesomeness just shine more clearly. Kids these days.

[markusin]

As a kid, I would make it a point to beat every game I had. At that time of innocence, I had not encountered a game too bad to not be worthy of completion. Nevertheless, I could not even get close to beating The Bombing Islands. Too kiddy to attract my eye in a game shop, but I got it as a gift from my mom. It turns out to be a very difficult puzzle game. I gave up when I couldn't continue without solutions.

Nowadays, there are lots of games that I don't finish due to lack of interest. The most notable is also a recent one: Xenogears.

[rant]

Supposedly a hidden gem, I would have much preferred they made Xenogears an anime or something. But no, Instead I have to sit there with my controller dutifully pressing the "X" button at the end of every slow-scrolling dialog box. I have never encountered a game with dialog boxes that cannot be sped up which are as slow as the ones in this game. If I accidently talk to the same NPC that results in a 5 dialog box conversation, I have to sit through it all.

Now, I actually liked the story, and reading the spoilers only made me want to finish it more to see how it all plays out (I'm spoiler-phillic like that). It was the gameplay that got to me. The combat system was passable but unexciting, and the gear/mech battles were especially dry. To motivate me to finish it, I was refusing to play Paper Mario for the N64 until I finished Xenogears. Alas, I only got as far as the Shevat air ducts. That was one boring dungeon too many. In fact, I don't think I enjoyed any of the game's dungeons. I ended up beating Paper Mario instead to perk me up after the experience.

I might try to finish this game one day, but I feel the game progresses at a snail's pace, and the second disk apparently only gets more tedious.

[/rant]

[enfynet]

Games I could beat would be much easier.

GoldenEye
Tiger Woods 2003
Portal
Portal 2
Super Mario 64
Cruis'n USA
Ocrina of Time


I've come close on a bunch more. But this is pretty much it. (Fallout 3, GTAV, and others may count, if we only include "easy" mode)

[Galzria]

As a kid, I would make it a point to beat every game I had. At that time of innocence, I had not encountered a game too bad to not be worthy of completion. Nevertheless, I could not even get close to beating The Bombing Islands. Too kiddy to attract my eye in a game shop, but I got it as a gift from my mom. It turns out to be a very difficult puzzle game. I gave up when I couldn't continue without solutions.

Nowadays, there are lots of games that I don't finish due to lack of interest. The most notable is also a recent one: Xenogears.

[rant]

Supposedly a hidden gem, I would have much preferred they made Xenogears an anime or something. But no, Instead I have to sit there with my controller dutifully pressing the "X" button at the end of every slow-scrolling dialog box. I have never encountered a game with dialog boxes that cannot be sped up which are as slow as the ones in this game. If I accidently talk to the same NPC that results in a 5 dialog box conversation, I have to sit through it all.

Now, I actually liked the story, and reading the spoilers only made me want to finish it more to see how it all plays out (I'm spoiler-phillic like that). It was the gameplay that got to me. The combat system was passable but unexciting, and the gear/mech battles were especially dry. To motivate me to finish it, I was refusing to play Paper Mario for the N64 until I finished Xenogears. Alas, I only got as far as the Shevat air ducts. That was one boring dungeon too many. In fact, I don't think I enjoyed any of the game's dungeons. I ended up beating Paper Mario instead to perk me up after the experience.

I might try to finish this game one day, but I feel the game progresses at a snail's pace, and the second disk apparently only gets more tedious.

[/rant]

Xenogears is my #1 game of all time. The only one I've actually cosplayed from, and beaten start to finish at least 4 times (including once this past year on ps vita as a "fond memory").



You're 100% correct that it's 80% slow scrolling dialog. The story is just so damn good it doesn't matter.

I can't really say that there are any games that I didn't beat... but growing up I had family that worked at what is effectively a GameStop, and their policy at the time allowed employees to take home games for free for a week at a time... so I had as much time as I needed to actually push through.

Plus, stubbornness runs in my family.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I never beat I Wanna Be the Guy but I don't feel like my life is significantly worse for it.

[AndrewisFTTW]

The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword - Trigger Warning, Zelda fanboys.  I hated Twilight Princess, thought Phantom Hourglass was mediocre, didn't even bother with Spirit Tracks.  I got this game hoping maybe the new controls would breathe some life in to this series for me, but it turned out they were awful, the overworld was awful, the dungeons were bland, and Fi ruined every surprise the game had.  I made it halfway through the Cistern dungeon and called it quits; just wasn't feeling this game and felt ripped off.  Fortunately, Link Between Worlds saved the series for me and now they're remaking my favorite game in the series, so I have not entirely given up on Zelda after this.  (I did watch footage of the story at the end, and I think it was a bad idea, for the record.  I will say that I regret finishing Metroid: Other M, and my refusal to let that disappointment happen to me again contributed to my hatred for Skyward Sword)

On the topic of Zeldas:

Link's Awakening - I don't think I ever finished this? Maybe? I seem to remember a really hard boss that I couldn't get past.

Phantom Hourglass - I started it and got bored. I'm not particularly interested in trying to get back into it. I also own Spirit Tracks but if it's anything like Phantom Hourglass then eh.

Link to the Past - I destroyed on a weekly basis as a kid. Hell of a game.

Ocarina of Time - I only recently finished this as I don't remember getting past the Fire Temple as a kid. Very weird.

Majora's Mask - Came out about the time I stopped gaming for a long time and only recently beat it. The release on 3DS might convince me to buy one, although I could (and probably should) just buy the original cart on N64.

Wind Waker - Currently playing through this very slowly with a friend of mine. Loving it so far.

I haven't played Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword but they both look like I wouldn't be into them. A Link Between Worlds looks pretty cool, I'll get to it someday.

Other games I haven't finished:

Super Metroid - I don't remember ever finishing this. I think even though I remember loving this game it was just a little too hard and maybe a little too creepy for me at the time.

Zombie Ate My Neighbors - A personal favorite but such a hard game.

Chrono Chross - Got stuck on a ridiculously hard boss and just gave up.

Banjo Kazooie - I played it a little bit as a kid and picked it up again not too long ago. I got to Mad Monster Mansion and just got bored with it. I don't understand why people love this game so much. Give me Super Mario 64 any day.

Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Boring.

Oh, I just looked at the title of this thread to see "...Couldn't Beat" and not "...Didn't Finish". I'll stop wasting your time now. Good day.

[enfynet]

Majora's Mask - Came out about the time I stopped gaming for a long time and only recently beat it. It's release on 3DS might convince me to buy one, although I could (and probably should) just buy the original cart on N64.

Good luck. I'm still on Day 2.