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Author Topic: Bunch of Duration Questions  (Read 22335 times)

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Hydrad

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2014, 01:44:48 pm »
0

(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?

Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck

Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.

Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations.  I forgot about that.

Oh I didn't know that. Ineteresting
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amalloy

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2014, 01:45:21 pm »
0

(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?

Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck

You can't do that. Scheme moves cards to the top of your deck only if they are being discarded from play: if you play a Duration card on the same turn as a Scheme, you can attempt to Scheme it back on top of your deck but you will fail, because it never gets discarded.
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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2014, 01:48:45 pm »
+2

(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?

Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck

Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.

Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations.  I forgot about that.

Oh I didn't know that. Ineteresting

Technically you can choose a first-turn Duration, but it's a bad idea because nothing happens if you do.
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GeoLib

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2014, 04:50:57 pm »
0

(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?

Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck

Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.

Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations.  I forgot about that.

Oh I didn't know that. Ineteresting

Technically you can choose a first-turn Duration, but it's a bad idea because nothing happens if you do.

Edge Case Challenge: Find a reason why you would do this.
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Donald X.

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2014, 04:59:32 pm »
0

If you played more than 1 Outpost in a turn, or Throne Roomed (or King's Courted or Processioned) an Outpost, will it be cleaned up in the Outpost turn, or will it stay out and only draw 3 cards in the clean up phase in the Outpost turn?
The card-drawing applies to the turn you play Outpost, just that turn. Any turn you play Outpost, you only draw 3 cards in that clean-up.

The point at which Outpost checks to see if it would give you an extra turn or not is after clean-up - after cards have been discarded already. So any played Outpost stays out until your next turn.
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2014, 05:10:09 pm »
0

If you played more than 1 Outpost in a turn, or Throne Roomed (or King's Courted or Processioned) an Outpost, will it be cleaned up in the Outpost turn, or will it stay out and only draw 3 cards in the clean up phase in the Outpost turn?
The card-drawing applies to the turn you play Outpost, just that turn. Any turn you play Outpost, you only draw 3 cards in that clean-up.

The point at which Outpost checks to see if it would give you an extra turn or not is after clean-up - after cards have been discarded already. So any played Outpost stays out until your next turn.

This isn't exactly what I asked. Or at least it wasn't what I meant to ask. I'll try asking it in some different ways:
If you play more than 1 in your normal turn, will all of them get cleaned up in your Outpost turn (which is your next turn)? Or will all except 1 of them think that they can still give you an extra turn after the Outpost turn?
If you play more than 1 Possession, then you get 1 extra turn for each of them. When does the Outposts know that this isn't the case for them? In the Outpost turn, will all except 1 of them think they they can still give you an extra turn, or does they know that you can't get more turns after the one you've already gotten? Do they all give you the extra turn at the same time, so they know you don't get more, and if this is the case, then why is it different from Possession?
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Donald X.

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2014, 06:03:15 pm »
0

This isn't exactly what I asked. Or at least it wasn't what I meant to ask. I'll try asking it in some different ways:
If you play more than 1 in your normal turn, will all of them get cleaned up in your Outpost turn (which is your next turn)? Or will all except 1 of them think that they can still give you an extra turn after the Outpost turn?
If you play more than 1 Possession, then you get 1 extra turn for each of them. When does the Outposts know that this isn't the case for them? In the Outpost turn, will all except 1 of them think they they can still give you an extra turn, or does they know that you can't get more turns after the one you've already gotten? Do they all give you the extra turn at the same time, so they know you don't get more, and if this is the case, then why is it different from Possession?
Possession doesn't have a limit on how many turns it can give you, and Outpost does. This is just from the card texts; the limit on Outpost, the lack of it on Possession. I think that covers the difference from Possession for you?

When two things try to happen at the same time, you resolve them one at a time. You resolve one Outpost, then another. Resolving Outpost means taking an extra turn. The card is terse, we have to figure everything out from "Take an extra turn after this one." I am interpreting the timing as in-between turns, and the effect as taking another turn right then, rather than say setting up some counter of number of turns to take afterwards.

So, you resolve an Outpost. You take a turn or fail to. The other Outpost is just sitting there through all of this. After that Outpost fails, or after that Outpost succeeds and you take a turn and it's after clean-up and back to being in-between turns, you resolve another Outpost. Outpost stays out until resolved.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2014, 06:18:13 pm »
+2

I was under the impression that the intent of the rules was that any card—regardless of the Duration type—stays in play until Clean-up on the last turn it does something. If Outpost's effect is the entire turn it creates, rather than just an instantaneous setup, then it stands to reason that Possession should also remain in play until the turn(s) it creates are over.
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Hydrad

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2014, 06:46:57 pm »
0

if you play 5 outposts on a turn does it take 5 turns for each outpost to try to resolve and then fail? or after the first outpost turn do they all fail right away and go back into the discard pile.

Man so many super edge cases that are never going to occur in my games but for some reason I just really want to know.
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Donald X.

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2014, 07:36:22 pm »
+1

I was under the impression that the intent of the rules was that any card—regardless of the Duration type—stays in play until Clean-up on the last turn it does something.
That was totally the intention; however via the rulebook rules, only Duration cards stay out.

If Outpost's effect is the entire turn it creates, rather than just an instantaneous setup, then it stands to reason that Possession should also remain in play until the turn(s) it creates are over.
Outpost causes an extra turn to happen, but it has nothing left to track once that turn starts, and goes away during the extra turn.
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Donald X.

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2014, 07:46:25 pm »
+4

if you play 5 outposts on a turn does it take 5 turns for each outpost to try to resolve and then fail? or after the first outpost turn do they all fail right away and go back into the discard pile.

Man so many super edge cases that are never going to occur in my games but for some reason I just really want to know.
I am as always just trying to interpret the rulebook and card texts as best as I can, and man I'm not checking what the online version does, or complaining if it doesn't do this, leave them alone, they are busy.

If you play 5 Outposts (after some other player's turn), they all stay out and you take another turn (with a 3-card hand). That turn that one Outpost goes away; it's done. The other four sit there, confusing everybody, until the clean-up phase of the next turn (which normally won't be yours) and go away then. They don't "know" they aren't doing anything until after clean-up on the extra turn, so they can't be discarded that turn.

The rulebook says, "Leave the card in front of you until the Clean-up Phase of the last turn in which it does something (discard it before drawing for the following turn)." This is impossible; clean-up is already over before Outpost is done doing things (even when what it's doing is trying to and failing to produce an extra turn). My ruling is to discard it in the next clean-up phase; clean-up is when we discard stuff from play. It won't be your turn but I would discard it then anyway. The original intention was for cards to be discarded the last turn they did something, even when it wasn't your turn (and the precursor to Cutpurse was discarded during someone else's turn). The rules assume the card will go away on your turn but it's normal for the main body of the rules to focus on normal cases rather than exceptions. The basic rule has a parenthetical that assumes it's your turn and well, I had to make a ruling and there it is.
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florrat

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2014, 12:28:54 am »
0

So Sudgy, will your program be the first one to handle Outpost correctly?  :)
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sudgy

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2014, 12:58:09 am »
0

So Sudgy, will your program be the first one to handle Outpost correctly?  :)

Probably...
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2014, 06:17:12 am »
+1

I think I've gotten my answer now :)

But this means that KC-KC-Outpost-Masq doesn't work. You've played 3 Outposts, but at the time you reach clean-up phase of your Outpost turn, only 1 of the Outposts have tried to give you an extra turn. So at that time you can't clean up KC-Outpost, and you will only draw KC-Masq. After your opponents turn you'll have KC and Outpost in your deck.

Edit: Village, Outpost, KC-Masq does work.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 06:48:50 am by Simon (DK) »
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Simon (DK)

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2014, 06:51:20 am »
+1

Just one more question from me:

If you play Throne Room-Outpost in your normal turn, can you then choose which of them you clean up in your Outpost turn?
I would think yes, because when your normal turn is over, you can choose whether to resolve the normal Outpost or the Throne Room generated Outpost first.
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Joseph2302

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2014, 07:02:37 am »
0

Just one more question from me:

If you play Throne Room-Outpost in your normal turn, can you then choose which of them you clean up in your Outpost turn?
I would think yes, because when your normal turn is over, you can choose whether to resolve the normal Outpost or the Throne Room generated Outpost first.

I would say yes, you can pick the order of duration cards. In the same way you can choose the order of princed cards + duration cards at the start of your turn.
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Donald X.

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2014, 05:43:33 pm »
0

If you play Throne Room-Outpost in your normal turn, can you then choose which of them you clean up in your Outpost turn?
I would think yes, because when your normal turn is over, you can choose whether to resolve the normal Outpost or the Throne Room generated Outpost first.
Yes, you pick which Outpost to resolve first.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2014, 06:08:57 pm »
0

(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?

Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck

Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.

Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations.  I forgot about that.

Oh I didn't know that. Ineteresting

Technically you can choose a first-turn Duration, but it's a bad idea because nothing happens if you do.

Edge Case Challenge: Find a reason why you would do this.

That's easy. You don't want to scheme any card, because anything else would be worse than a new 5 cards. You don't want the Scheme again because your opponent is heavy on Militia, so a contrip hurts with knowing what to discard.
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amalloy

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2014, 06:12:43 pm »
+1

(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?

Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck

Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.

Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations.  I forgot about that.

Oh I didn't know that. Ineteresting

Technically you can choose a first-turn Duration, but it's a bad idea because nothing happens if you do.

Edge Case Challenge: Find a reason why you would do this.

That's easy. You don't want to scheme any card, because anything else would be worse than a new 5 cards. You don't want the Scheme again because your opponent is heavy on Militia, so a contrip hurts with knowing what to discard.

But Scheme is a "may", not a "must". You can always choose to scheme nothing. I can't imagine any scenario where scheming a first-turn duration is different from scheming nothing at all,
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Asper

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2014, 08:13:36 pm »
0

(you can tell what expansion I'm working on in my program)
1. All Durations other than Haven, Tactician, and Outpost under any circumstances stay out, right?

Unless someone plays a scheme and chooses to put it on top of their deck

Scheme does not affect how long a Duration card remains in play.

Oh, right, Scheme can't choose first-turn durations.  I forgot about that.

Oh I didn't know that. Ineteresting

Technically you can choose a first-turn Duration, but it's a bad idea because nothing happens if you do.

Edge Case Challenge: Find a reason why you would do this.

That's easy. You don't want to scheme any card, because anything else would be worse than a new 5 cards. You don't want the Scheme again because your opponent is heavy on Militia, so a contrip hurts with knowing what to discard.

But Scheme is a "may", not a "must". You can always choose to scheme nothing. I can't imagine any scenario where scheming a first-turn duration is different from scheming nothing at all,

I agree. There's the obvious cases where you want to topdeck a Tactician or Haven that failed to do it's share this turn, but when talking about Durations that would actually stay out, i see absolutely nothing.

Donald X.

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2014, 08:25:45 pm »
+7

But Scheme is a "may", not a "must". You can always choose to scheme nothing. I can't imagine any scenario where scheming a first-turn duration is different from scheming nothing at all,
Advisor's Pal: Action - Duration, $5
Now and at the start of your next turn, +1 Card and +$1.
----------
When you choose this card, gain a Gold.

Strict Peddler: Action, $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
This turn, optional abilities are mandatory.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 08:41:49 pm by Donald X. »
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Asper

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2014, 08:33:36 pm »
0

Strict Peddler - Action, $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
This turn, optional abilities are mandatory.

But what if i reveal King's Court with Golem and don't want to use it? ;)

Deadlock39

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2014, 09:23:23 pm »
+1

If you play Throne Room-Outpost in your normal turn, can you then choose which of them you clean up in your Outpost turn?
I would think yes, because when your normal turn is over, you can choose whether to resolve the normal Outpost or the Throne Room generated Outpost first.
Yes, you pick which Outpost to resolve first.

Maybe I am just confused here (which seems likely) but it doesn't seem like there is a difference between the "2" Outposts.  You play Throne Room, and it plays Outpost 2 times.  There isn't a "normal Outpost" and a "Throne Room generated Outpost" is there?  The Throne room played both Outposts.  It stays out to remind you that you played it twice, but you don't have a "normal" one.  I suppose the two "take an extra turn"s happen at the same time (after this one), so choosing which one to resolve first makes sense, but it shouldn't affect the outcome right?

Donald X.

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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2014, 10:40:56 pm »
0

If you play Throne Room-Outpost in your normal turn, can you then choose which of them you clean up in your Outpost turn?
I would think yes, because when your normal turn is over, you can choose whether to resolve the normal Outpost or the Throne Room generated Outpost first.
Yes, you pick which Outpost to resolve first.

Maybe I am just confused here (which seems likely) but it doesn't seem like there is a difference between the "2" Outposts.  You play Throne Room, and it plays Outpost 2 times.  There isn't a "normal Outpost" and a "Throne Room generated Outpost" is there?  The Throne room played both Outposts.  It stays out to remind you that you played it twice, but you don't have a "normal" one.  I suppose the two "take an extra turn"s happen at the same time (after this one), so choosing which one to resolve first makes sense, but it shouldn't affect the outcome right?
Yes, Throne Room played both Outposts. Both plays of Outpost are that one Outpost card, facilitated by Throne Room. So you don't discard Outpost until a confusingly late point as previously discussed. That leaves the question of what your options are for discarding Throne Room.

The Seaside rulebook says (going from a text file, feel free to consult a printed rulebook): "If you play or modify a Duration card with another card, that other card also stays in front of you until it's no longer doing anything. For example if you play Throne Room on Merchant Ship, both cards stay in play until the Clean-up phase of your next turn. The Throne Room stays in play to remind you that you are getting the effect of Merchant Ship twice on that next turn."

[That "or modify" is there because once it seemed like I might conceivably make a card like "reveal this when you play a card, to add 1 to numbers in that card's text."]

So the question is, at what point is Throne Room "no longer doing anything." As always I just want the ruling to match the rulebook as well as it can.

Throne Room played Outpost twice. You could say that Throne Room is "doing anything" until the card has resolved twice; or that it's "doing anything" until the card has resolved once. I am tentatively going with, it's "doing anything" until the card has resolved twice.
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Re: Bunch of Duration Questions
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2014, 10:56:03 pm »
0

1) If you Throne Room a Duration, the Throne Room stays out, and you double the Duration next turn.

2) If you Throne Room a Throne Room one or two Durations, only the Throne Room that immediately double a Duration stays out - the innermost Throne Room.  All other Throne Rooms are discarded.

3) And if you Procession a Duration, the Procession stays out, though the Duration is trashed, and you double the Duration next turn.

What if you Procession a Procession that is doubling a Duration?

Going by 2), the first Procession should be discarded.  But now you have a Duration effect coming up on your next turn that isn't being marked by either its doubler or the card itself.
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