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Forge!!!

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Engine Building Question
« on: December 16, 2011, 06:45:48 pm »
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All right, so I just played in a game with:

Goons
Highway
Laboratory
Market
Bazaar
Workshop
Ambassador
Other various cards

How does one go making an engine with all this? There are just so many possible cards and I have no idea which ones to begin with or end with or anything. I tried going Highway/Workshop at the beginning to be able to gain lots of the 5 cards quickly but it completely failed.
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Rabid

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Re: Engine Building Question
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2011, 07:08:03 pm »
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I think I would start with Amb / Silver on 4/3
On 5/2 bazaar/0 into double ambassador.
Transition into bazaar / lab / goons.
But I don't think how you win the end game is terribly relevant.
It should come down to winning the Ambassador war.

Out of interest what did you opponent do?
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Twitch
1 Day Cup #1:Ednever

Forge!!!

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Re: Engine Building Question
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2011, 07:14:00 pm »
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My opponent started the same (ambassador/silver) and then got a lot of highways/markets, a lab and a goons and managed to string them all together far better than i and bought 3 provinces in a turn two turns in a row.
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ftl

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Re: Engine Building Question
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2011, 07:31:58 pm »
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Here are my guesses for how this would go:

Highway/workshop seems like a mid-game thing to gain engine blocks quicker; but not a very good early-game play, because if you draw workshop without highway, then you can't gain anything useful. Also, for the engine to get going, you want to win the ambassador war; Workshop will clash with Ambassador, also being terminal.

My guess is that early-game, you want two ambassadors and then accumulate laboratories, bazaars, and highways since they're cantrip and won't get in the way of your ambassadoring and give cash. I'd guess get the minimum number of silvers you can. Not sure of the early-game mix between labs and bazaars -  labs help win the ambassador race by giving you more cards, bazaars can prevent amb collisions.  (What were the other 2-4 cost cards? Were there any useful cantrips? Or even not-so-useful not-get-in-the-way cantrips?)

If you get an early 6... grab goons, and then get an extra bazaar later.

If you win the ambassador war, then each turn you draw your whole deck, and play enough ambassadors to keep drawing your whole deck even with the 1-2 extra cards that you'll get each turn from your opponent.  Then you build up highways and goons and have an end-game however you like.

If you lose on the ambassadoring, then you'll be facing an opponent which draws his whole deck and ambassadors you two cards per turn, and you'll be screwed.

That is my guess for how to play this, based on what you've said.

Can you post the game log? I think I agree with Rabid that the big issue here is how to win the Ambassadoring. If you can consistently get a good draw engine going, then you'll win; if you flounder in coppers and estates, you'll lose.
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Forge!!!

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Re: Engine Building Question
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2011, 03:09:43 am »
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Is there any way to get a log of the game before councilroom updates? And after you're off of the page of the game, I suppose.

Well, doesn't matter, CR updated now, my goodness did I get crushed:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111216-153742-288ca246.html

I didn't pay nearly enough attention to the ambassadors, and kept drawing Woodcutters I couldn't play. Just really poorly played all around =\
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 03:51:14 am by Forge!!! »
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DG

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Re: Engine Building Question
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2011, 11:37:41 am »
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One way to construct a deck like this is to cut down on the number of terminal cards, treasure and actions, to a minimum. You would then try to draw through your whole deck each turn and use the ambassador to keep it trim. In this kingdom you can use markets and highways to build for 3 pile finish, labs to secure the drawing, bazaar for extra actions, a goons for the attack and a trickle of points, and an ambassador. That's it. Extra silver, workshops, ambassadors, goons, moats all risk the drawing of the deck and although they are useful options to have you might be able to get away without them.

By turn 3 you've got enough useful cards to create a nice small deck - ambassador, bazaar, one silver - but you then add a lot of terminals to fatten it up with a workshop and two silvers on turns 4, 5, and 7. If you make some of those buys ambassadors, moats, or nothing (and use the ambassador to return more cards) your deck can contract down then expand quickly later with genuine quality.

A typical ambassador problem is to shrink too much and find that your opponent has bought gold and provinces before your deck is expanding. However this kingdom has such good finishing options with highways, markets, and goons that you can prepare the deck very well and look for a killer finish.
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ackack

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Re: Engine Building Question
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2011, 03:40:44 pm »
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One way to construct a deck like this is to cut down on the number of terminal cards, treasure and actions, to a minimum. You would then try to draw through your whole deck each turn and use the ambassador to keep it trim. In this kingdom you can use markets and highways to build for 3 pile finish, labs to secure the drawing, bazaar for extra actions, a goons for the attack and a trickle of points, and an ambassador. That's it. Extra silver, workshops, ambassadors, goons, moats all risk the drawing of the deck and although they are useful options to have you might be able to get away without them.

I agree with the basics here, but extra Goons seems essential for this deck. Especially with Highways and Markets out, the possibility of having a multi-buy multi-Goons turn where you can pick up legitimately useful cards (Labs, Markets, Highways) seems too good to pass up. And I think 2 Ambassadors are essential at some point to get conclusively ahead in thinning. You can always Ambassador one of them away later.
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Forge!!!

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Re: Engine Building Question
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2011, 03:52:45 pm »
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Thanks, this has been quite helpful =)
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ftl

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Re: Engine Building Question
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2011, 02:33:23 am »
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Yep, looking at the replay - you lost the ambassador war. You got 1 ambassador, and by the end of the game had 11 coppers and 4 estates - no wonder you could never get the right combinations of cards!

100%, you needed to get a second amb on your second reshuffle.
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