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Author Topic: Homage to the Best Card  (Read 2288472 times)

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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5150 on: June 23, 2015, 09:08:25 pm »
+17

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werothegreat

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5151 on: June 23, 2015, 09:15:15 pm »
0

How I say them:

want = wɑnt
font = fɔnt
haunt = hɔnt

"font" and "haunt" rhyme; want does not rhyme with them.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5152 on: June 23, 2015, 09:15:30 pm »
0

To do it without IPA and have it make sense to all:  for non-NA English "can't" rhymes with "font" (approximately).

Um, what? I have never heard anyone, from any country, rhyme those two words.

I can't follow that IPA notation.

How do you learn to pronounce foreign languages then?

Either by ear, or through familiarity with the particular pronunciation rules of those phonetic languages I am actually slightly familiar with (Italian, German, Japanese).
If I am reading an unfamiliar foreign language word from any other language, I would not presume to know how to pronounce it.
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silvern

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5153 on: June 23, 2015, 09:15:47 pm »
+3

Uh, pretty sure that should be socially awesome penguin all the way down.
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werothegreat

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5154 on: June 23, 2015, 09:18:28 pm »
+1

How I say them:

want = wɑnt
font = fɔnt
haunt = hɔnt

"font" and "haunt" rhyme; want does not rhyme with them.

Actually, to be perfectly accurate, those are usually glottal stops at the end of those, not alveolar.
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Seprix

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5155 on: June 23, 2015, 09:19:01 pm »
+3

Why is this happening? This is why the Salem Witch trials happened.
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pacovf

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5156 on: June 23, 2015, 09:27:27 pm »
0

Ohioan here: the vowels in "haunt" and "font" are 100% the same to me.

Do you say "faunt" or "hont"?

Hont, if I'm understanding the question right. Also to me rhymes with want/gaunt/taunt.

To me, want and font rhyme, and haunt, gaunt and taunt rhyme. Still don't get how the two groups can rhyme though.

To me, want rhymes with hunt and bunt, and font rhymes with haunt and gaunt and taunt.

This sort of malarkey doesn't happen with real languages.
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5157 on: June 23, 2015, 09:47:02 pm »
+3

Here's how I pronounce them:

want = wɑnt
font = fɔnt
haunt = hɔ:nt
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5158 on: June 23, 2015, 09:56:51 pm »
+2

To do it without IPA and have it make sense to all:  for non-NA English "can't" rhymes with "font" (approximately).

Um, what? I have never heard anyone, from any country, rhyme those two words.

Yeah, I think I was unclear.  There are several problems.  First among them is that the lexeme [a] can represent fuckton* of different phonemes.

Second is the existence of the cot-caught merger, which is pervasive, and grates on me every time I hear it, despite my wife having them completely merged.**  And even that particular merger can be different before different consonants.

Third is the fact that the /æ/ sound is common in NA English, but not nearly as common in UK English.  So for me (northern OH raised, so barely part of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift), I have the following:

"can't" /kæ(ə)nt/
"font" /fɑnt/ (rhymes with RP aunt, but no other English words ending in -nt rhyme... same sound as "cot" before the merger)
"want" /wɔnt/ (rhymes with haunt, gaunt)

*metric or imperial fuckton, your choice
**Funny story, for the first two years at her job, I thought her (then) supervisor, Don, was female, because she uses the /ɔ/ sound ("Dawn") for both, as does almost everyone in the US West and all of Canada.
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5159 on: June 23, 2015, 10:06:23 pm »
0

Unmerged "cot" sounds like Bostonian for "cart" to me.
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5160 on: June 23, 2015, 10:13:50 pm »
0

Unmerged "cot" sounds like Bostonian for "cart" to me.

Very similar, yes.  Boston is weird.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5161 on: June 23, 2015, 11:13:49 pm »
0

To do it without IPA and have it make sense to all:  for non-NA English "can't" rhymes with "font" (approximately).

Um, what? I have never heard anyone, from any country, rhyme those two words.

Yeah, I think I was unclear.  There are several problems.  First among them is that the lexeme [a] can represent fuckton* of different phonemes.

Second is the existence of the cot-caught merger, which is pervasive, and grates on me every time I hear it, despite my wife having them completely merged.**  And even that particular merger can be different before different consonants.

Third is the fact that the /æ/ sound is common in NA English, but not nearly as common in UK English.  So for me (northern OH raised, so barely part of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift), I have the following:

"can't" /kæ(ə)nt/
"font" /fɑnt/ (rhymes with RP aunt, but no other English words ending in -nt rhyme... same sound as "cot" before the merger)
"want" /wɔnt/ (rhymes with haunt, gaunt)

*metric or imperial fuckton, your choice
**Funny story, for the first two years at her job, I thought her (then) supervisor, Don, was female, because she uses the /ɔ/ sound ("Dawn") for both, as does almost everyone in the US West and all of Canada.

I guess I'm in a region where that cot-caught merger thing happened.  "font" and "want" rhyme!  Can somebody make a recording or something so I can learn how y'all are pronouncing it?
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AJD

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5162 on: June 24, 2015, 12:47:50 am »
+31

OKAY YOU GUYS I HAVE AN ACTUAL PHD IN DIALECTOLOGY

Here's the deal.

There's about seven different relevant word classes here. We can refer to them by keywords: TRAP, GLASS, START, FATHER, LOT, CLOTH, THOUGHT.

In any dialect, more or less all the words within a class have the same vowel. For example, trap, flat, cat, and alas are all in the TRAP class and all share the same vowel sound. (There are some exceptions—words that are in one class in some dialects and another class in other dialects—but those are the exception rather than the rule. For instance clerk is in the NURSE class in the US but the START class in England.) But between dialects, the same class might be pronounced differently. So those four words in the TRAP class all have the same vowel, but in California it's a vowel that's low in the mouth while in Chicago it's a vowel that's relatively high.

However, in any given dialect, it's possible for two or more different classes to have exactly the same sound (while those classes are different in other dialects). For instance, in Canada, LOT, THOUGHT, and CLOTH are all the same; in New York CLOTH and THOUGHT are the same but LOT is different, and in London LOT and CLOTH are the same but THOUGHT is different.

What this means is that questions like "Do you say 'faunt' or 'hont'?" are generally going to be meaningless to people. If they have the same vowel in font and haunt, it's (probably) because their LOT and THOUGHT vowels are the same. So asking a question that amounts to "Do you have font in THOUGHT or haunt in LOT?" is unanswerable, because they're both true.

Overall:
TRAP is usually low and front in the mouth. In US cities along the Great Lakes, like Buffalo, Detroit, and Chicago, it's often higher.

In most dialects TRAP and GLASS are the same. They're different in traditional New York, Philadelphia, and Boston dialects, as well as in southern England and closely related dialects such as Australia. There is a lot of variation in terms of which words are in the GLASS set. In New York and Philadelphia, GLASS is raised like TRAP is in Chicago.

In traditional Boston, southern England, and Australia, GLASS, FATHER, and START are the same. This vowel is low and central-frontish in Boston and Australia, low and back in England.

In the rest of North America (except maybe New York?), FATHER is the same as LOT. This vowel is low. In the Great Lakes cities, it's central-frontish like the FATHER vowel of Boston; elsewhere it's mostly relatively back. If it's merged with THOUGHT, it might be produced with the lips rounded (or might not).

In North America, CLOTH is mostly the same as THOUGHT. Elsewhere, it's mostly the same as LOT, except for maybe some old-fashioned English accents.

LOT and THOUGHT are the same in Canada, northern and eastern New England, western Pennsylvania, the western US, and probably Scotland, as well as an ever-expanding set of other places in the US. They're different in (for example) New York and Philadelphia, more traditional accents throughout the Midwest and South, and most places outside North America (except Scotland). When they're different, in the US LOT usually has the lips unrounded and THOUGHT usually has the lips rounded. In England, they're both rounded, but THOUGHT is higher in the mouth. THOUGHT is high in New York and Philadelphia as well (the stereotypical "coffee talk" vowel).

Font is LOT.
Can't is GLASS.
  • (Note that no dialects as far as I know have GLASS = LOT, so things like "for non-NA English 'can't' rhymes with 'font'" are misleading. What you're actually trying to say with this is that in e.g. southern England GLASS = FATHER, but you interpret this as meaning GLASS = LOT because for you FATHER = LOT. But this isn't true in England.)
Want is mostly LOT, but in some dialects it's STRUT.
Don is LOT.
Dawn is THOUGHT.
Cart is START.
Cot is LOT.
Caught is THOUGHT.
Haunt is THOUGHT as far as I know, but if someone wants to tell me it's CLOTH or LOT I'll believe them.
Aunt is mostly GLASS, but in some dialects it's TRAP.
Gaunt is THOUGHT.
Aren't is START.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 01:07:03 am by AJD »
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GwinnR

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5163 on: June 24, 2015, 03:01:14 am »
+5

So are there any linguists here who would like to tag all jokes with the proper regional dialect tags from now on?
Top 10 list of jokes you only understand with the right regional dialect ;-P
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Donald X.

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5164 on: June 24, 2015, 05:01:19 am »
+5

Third is the fact that the /æ/ sound is common in NA English, but not nearly as common in UK English.  So for me (northern OH raised, so barely part of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift), I have the following:

"can't" /kæ(ə)nt/
"font" /fɑnt/ (rhymes with RP aunt, but no other English words ending in -nt rhyme... same sound as "cot" before the merger)
"want" /wɔnt/ (rhymes with haunt, gaunt)
Northern Ohio plus Oregon.

cant - like can and then there's a t
font - fahnt, like Fonzie but with a t
want - wunt, like one and then a t
haunt - hawnt, like Goldie Hawn and then a t

I know a linguistics professor and sometimes she points out how people aren't saying a word like they think. Like, you say hampster, not hamster. A "p" just shows up.
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5165 on: June 24, 2015, 05:18:36 am »
0

Can't is GLASS.

Brilliant explanation.  Unfortunately "can't" seems to be one of those exceptions outside the south of England.  It's either START or FATHER, which I can't distinguish.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5166 on: June 24, 2015, 06:01:10 am »
+26

Found it first on 9gag, it sums up pretty well my thoughts on English pronounciation (I'm French, btw)



EDIT : I created this to celebrate this thread, I'm sure you can find other ideas or way to improve it :

Homage to the Best Card - the Bingo game !
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 06:45:51 am by ChocophileBenj »
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5167 on: June 24, 2015, 08:18:27 am »
+5

I say "can-trip", but I still got the joke.

It's a stretch for me too, but you can slur anything if you go a little fast.

Be careful going fast; you might trip.

I was once in a band that we named Slow Children At Play, and our marketing materials had the street sign with the children icons on it.  We had been rehearsing a few weeks when there was a disagreement about the name.  Several of us thought it was read as:
Slow, Children at Play (as in "drive slower, there are kids around").

The others thought it was self-deprecating humor:

Slow Children, at Play.

We changed the name of the band.
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5168 on: June 24, 2015, 09:35:40 am »
+2

OKAY YOU GUYS I HAVE AN ACTUAL PHD IN DIALECTOLOGY

I bet you don't get to say that every day.
Quote
(Note that no dialects as far as I know have GLASS = LOT, so things like "for non-NA English 'can't' rhymes with 'font'" are misleading. What you're actually trying to say with this is that in e.g. southern England GLASS = FATHER, but you interpret this as meaning GLASS = LOT because for you FATHER = LOT. But this isn't true in England.)

Obviously I was interpreting this poorly.  My bad!

Quote
Want is mostly LOT, but in some dialects it's STRUT.

Apparently I'm weird?  For me, want goes with cloth and thought, but neither lot nor strut rhyme with those three.

(I'll admit to having several affectations in my speech.  I pronounce "aunt" as if I were in Boston because I hate that it rhymes with "ant" in my dialect, and I use "y'all" all the time because dammit, English needs a second-person plural.  But my pronunciation of "want" is definitely not an affectation.)
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5169 on: June 24, 2015, 09:38:08 am »
+2

OKAY YOU GUYS I HAVE AN ACTUAL PHD IN DIALECTOLOGY

Here's the deal.

There's about seven different relevant word classes here. We can refer to them by keywords: TRAP, GLASS, START, FATHER, LOT, CLOTH, THOUGHT.

In any dialect, more or less all the words within a class have the same vowel. For example, trap, flat, cat, and alas are all in the TRAP class and all share the same vowel sound. (There are some exceptions—words that are in one class in some dialects and another class in other dialects—but those are the exception rather than the rule. For instance clerk is in the NURSE class in the US but the START class in England.) But between dialects, the same class might be pronounced differently. So those four words in the TRAP class all have the same vowel, but in California it's a vowel that's low in the mouth while in Chicago it's a vowel that's relatively high.

However, in any given dialect, it's possible for two or more different classes to have exactly the same sound (while those classes are different in other dialects). For instance, in Canada, LOT, THOUGHT, and CLOTH are all the same; in New York CLOTH and THOUGHT are the same but LOT is different, and in London LOT and CLOTH are the same but THOUGHT is different.

What this means is that questions like "Do you say 'faunt' or 'hont'?" are generally going to be meaningless to people. If they have the same vowel in font and haunt, it's (probably) because their LOT and THOUGHT vowels are the same. So asking a question that amounts to "Do you have font in THOUGHT or haunt in LOT?" is unanswerable, because they're both true.

Overall:
TRAP is usually low and front in the mouth. In US cities along the Great Lakes, like Buffalo, Detroit, and Chicago, it's often higher.

In most dialects TRAP and GLASS are the same. They're different in traditional New York, Philadelphia, and Boston dialects, as well as in southern England and closely related dialects such as Australia. There is a lot of variation in terms of which words are in the GLASS set. In New York and Philadelphia, GLASS is raised like TRAP is in Chicago.

In traditional Boston, southern England, and Australia, GLASS, FATHER, and START are the same. This vowel is low and central-frontish in Boston and Australia, low and back in England.

In the rest of North America (except maybe New York?), FATHER is the same as LOT. This vowel is low. In the Great Lakes cities, it's central-frontish like the FATHER vowel of Boston; elsewhere it's mostly relatively back. If it's merged with THOUGHT, it might be produced with the lips rounded (or might not).

In North America, CLOTH is mostly the same as THOUGHT. Elsewhere, it's mostly the same as LOT, except for maybe some old-fashioned English accents.

LOT and THOUGHT are the same in Canada, northern and eastern New England, western Pennsylvania, the western US, and probably Scotland, as well as an ever-expanding set of other places in the US. They're different in (for example) New York and Philadelphia, more traditional accents throughout the Midwest and South, and most places outside North America (except Scotland). When they're different, in the US LOT usually has the lips unrounded and THOUGHT usually has the lips rounded. In England, they're both rounded, but THOUGHT is higher in the mouth. THOUGHT is high in New York and Philadelphia as well (the stereotypical "coffee talk" vowel).

Font is LOT.
Can't is GLASS.
  • (Note that no dialects as far as I know have GLASS = LOT, so things like "for non-NA English 'can't' rhymes with 'font'" are misleading. What you're actually trying to say with this is that in e.g. southern England GLASS = FATHER, but you interpret this as meaning GLASS = LOT because for you FATHER = LOT. But this isn't true in England.)
Want is mostly LOT, but in some dialects it's STRUT.
Don is LOT.
Dawn is THOUGHT.
Cart is START.
Cot is LOT.
Caught is THOUGHT.
Haunt is THOUGHT as far as I know, but if someone wants to tell me it's CLOTH or LOT I'll believe them.
Aunt is mostly GLASS, but in some dialects it's TRAP.
Gaunt is THOUGHT.
Aren't is START.

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5170 on: June 24, 2015, 09:42:47 am »
0

 :-[
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5171 on: June 24, 2015, 10:37:49 am »
0

Can't is GLASS.

Brilliant explanation.  Unfortunately "can't" seems to be one of those exceptions outside the south of England.  It's either START or FATHER, which I can't distinguish.

Meaning in non-south parts of England? I can believe that.
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5172 on: June 24, 2015, 10:41:39 am »
+3

dammit, English needs a second-person plural.

English has a second-person plural, however its speakers decided to get rid of second-person singular.
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5173 on: June 24, 2015, 10:42:39 am »
+1

OKAY YOU GUYS I HAVE AN ACTUAL PHD IN DIALECTOLOGY

I bet you don't get to say that every day.

...You'd be surprised!

Quote
Quote
Want is mostly LOT, but in some dialects it's STRUT.

Apparently I'm weird?  For me, want goes with cloth and thought, but neither lot nor strut rhyme with those three.

Yeah, that makes sense and I should have allowed for it. I myself have LOT=CLOTH=THOUGHT, so it's not that easy for me to keep track of words that vary from dialect to dialect with respect to which of these classes they're in.

Quote
(I'll admit to having several affectations in my speech.  I pronounce "aunt" as if I were in Boston because I hate that it rhymes with "ant" in my dialect,

I think above where I said aunt is usually GLASS but sometimes TRAP I should have said it's usually GLASS but sometimes FATHER. Sorry, it was late.
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #5174 on: June 24, 2015, 10:45:29 am »
+5

OKAY YOU GUYS I HAVE AN ACTUAL PHD IN DIALECTOLOGY

I bet you don't get to say that every day.

...You'd be surprised!

(AJD walks into a bar, finds a cute girl.)  "Hi, do you like talking?  Well, I have an actual PhD in Dialectology. Want to talk about that?  Hey, wait, where are you going?"
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