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Author Topic: Homage to the Best Card  (Read 2295660 times)

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Kirian

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4900 on: June 02, 2015, 03:21:06 pm »
+5

Where's liopoil to remind us what the best way is to deal with Rats?

Also, why isn't there a plugin that allows me to type Rats, or even [card]Rats[/card], and produce a link to the wiki and a card image on rollover?
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Sidsel

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4901 on: June 02, 2015, 03:23:48 pm »
0

Where's liopoil to remind us what the best way is to deal with Rats?

Also, why isn't there a plugin that allows me to type Rats, or even [card]Rats[/card], and produce a link to the wiki and a card image on rollover?

Make it so.
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liopoil

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4902 on: June 02, 2015, 03:31:15 pm »
+11

Have no fear, liopoil is here! The best way to deal with a rats infestation is to build a watchtower in your backyard equipped with a laser to instantly shoot any rats that come out from hiding.

Under 10 minutes, not bad.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4903 on: June 02, 2015, 03:38:14 pm »
0

Native Village.  Island, haha.

That's pseudo-trashing.

And I'd say it's worse than actually trashing!  Actually trashing Rats isn't that bad even with no benefit.

Yeah, but I already included it.

So we're in agreement?  Ratcatcher isn't so bad?

But it's still one of the worst ways to deal with Rats.

I guess that depends on how wide a range "worst" encompasses.  You could also say Young Witch is one of the worst attacks, since there are better attacks. ::)
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Witherweaver

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4904 on: June 02, 2015, 03:44:19 pm »
+2

Have no fear, liopoil is here! The best way to deal with a rats infestation is to build a watchtower in your backyard equipped with a laser to instantly shoot any rats that come out from hiding.

Under 10 minutes, not bad.

Alternative strategy: get a cat.
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AJD

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4905 on: June 02, 2015, 04:05:44 pm »
+1

Or nananananananana- RATMAN!

Trash a Rats from your hand. Each other player discards a Rats (or reveals a hand containing no Rats). Gain a Rats, putting it on your deck.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4906 on: June 02, 2015, 07:03:05 pm »
0

I guess that depends on how wide a range "worst" encompasses.  You could also say Young Witch is one of the worst attacks, since there are better attacks. ::)

Buy Rats.
Turn all your junk into Rats.
Buy Ratcatcher.
Slowly trash all your Rats with Ratcatcher.
Find yourself many turns behind where you would have been if you had just trashed your junk with Ratcatcher.

Yeah, I'd say that's about the strategic equivalent of buying Young Witch. :o
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4907 on: June 02, 2015, 07:08:54 pm »
+1

I guess that depends on how wide a range "worst" encompasses.  You could also say Young Witch is one of the worst attacks, since there are better attacks. ::)

Buy Rats.
Turn all your junk into Rats.
Buy Ratcatcher.
Slowly trash all your Rats with Ratcatcher.
Find yourself many turns behind where you would have been if you had just trashed your junk with Ratcatcher.

Yeah, I'd say that's about the strategic equivalent of buying Young Witch. :o

I'm not saying it's equivalent.  It was an exaggeration to demonstrate the point, which is that I don't think Ratcatcher is at the bottom of the barrel but it depends on where you draw the line for "bottom".  It can be worth it to get Rats and some slower non-cost-based trasher to deal with the Rats after, if your strategy doesn't mind extra actions but wants to get rid of other junk more quickly.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 07:10:50 pm by eHalcyon »
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iguanaiguana

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4908 on: June 02, 2015, 07:21:53 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure this entire discussion of ratcatcher/rats is ignoring the important question of whether or not this is a vineyards game.
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4909 on: June 02, 2015, 07:26:36 pm »
0

Maybe with an attractive +buy, you could get multiple Ratcatchers later.  You're slightly better off trashing a Rats than you are trashing any other junk card directly, but you don't want to have more than 3-4 Rats in your deck at any time.  Maybe you open Rats-Woodcutter and hit $4 with Woodcutter really early.  The trouble, I think, is that the "+ card" benefit isn't strong enough to compensate if you can't hit the ground running with Ratcatchers around the time you get your 2nd or 3rd Rats.  It would also be fine on a board with junk attacks - you could Rats the junk if your Catcher isn't on the mat.  Overall, it's a balancing act, and you need to keep the Rats in check or else you've missed the point.  The relative difference is probably small in favor of the combo over just Ratcatcher, if there is any difference at all.  And I doubt that it would work without +buy.

Of course I'd much rather have Upgrade, Junk Dealer, Salvager, Transmogrify, or Remodel.  Even Develop would be better.  I would somewhat loathe Expand as a rat trasher, though, unless King's Court is on the board, and I never seem to have great luck trying to Forge the bastards, either - I think colliding three cards is too hard, even if you've trashed most of your starter deck.  You don't really want to keep your Estates, either, so trashing a single Rats along with a different card will hit all kinds of empty or unattractive price points.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4910 on: June 02, 2015, 07:32:29 pm »
0

With Scrying Pool it works, there are probably other combinations that work, but edge cases don't invalidate the general rule.
The point is that 99 times out of 100 trashing Rats with Ratcatcher is a losing strategy.
Arguing about whether there is a worse losing strategy than this losing strategy is pointless semantics.
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4911 on: June 02, 2015, 07:36:48 pm »
0

Opening with Ratcatcher into Messneger-Rats could also be interesting.  You would definitely get the better end of the deal if anyone else skipped Ratcatcher.

Overall, I'm not so sure that you need anything more than +buy to make it work marginally better than just Ratcatcher.  Scrying Pool would make it much better for sure, but I'm not so sure that 99% of the time it can't be done.
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4912 on: June 02, 2015, 07:41:19 pm »
0

Also, junk attacks are a thing.  I would play Rats-Ratcatcher against Sea Hag.  Junk attacks and +buy both make a big difference, and neither is an exotic edge case.

Overall, it is a little odd that Ratcatcher is called Ratcatcher when the obvious combo is fairly weak to the point where it needs support.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4913 on: June 02, 2015, 07:41:36 pm »
0

With Scrying Pool it works, there are probably other combinations that work, but edge cases don't invalidate the general rule.
The point is that 99 times out of 100 trashing Rats with Ratcatcher is a losing strategy.
Arguing about whether there is a worse losing strategy than this losing strategy is pointless semantics.

No, it's 83 times out of 100.  I can make up numbers too!

And the point was semantics to begin with.  Seriously.
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jaketheyak

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4914 on: June 02, 2015, 08:18:02 pm »
+7

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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4915 on: June 02, 2015, 08:28:40 pm »
0



Well I was trying to end it, with the Young Witch example to show that it came down to semantics so whatever.  Thus the  ::)
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belugawhale

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4916 on: June 02, 2015, 10:41:34 pm »
+2

No, it's 83 times out of 100.  I can make up numbers too!

Did you know that 79% of statistics are made up on the spot?
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4917 on: June 03, 2015, 04:15:10 am »
+6

No, it's 83 times out of 100.  I can make up numbers too!

Did you know that 79% of statistics are made up on the spot?

But 93% of people will believe anything if you use a percentage.
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4918 on: June 03, 2015, 04:26:25 am »
+7

No, it's 83 times out of 100.  I can make up numbers too!

Did you know that 79% of statistics are made up on the spot?

But 93% of people will believe anything if you use a percentage.

p = .63 is the proportion who will just be confused if you use decimal proportions, though.
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AdamH

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4919 on: June 03, 2015, 07:18:17 am »
0

No, it's 83 times out of 100.  I can make up numbers too!

Did you know that 79% of statistics are made up on the spot?

But 93% of people will believe anything if you use a percentage.

55!!!!  ;D

...percent
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4920 on: June 03, 2015, 07:26:53 am »
+2

No, it's 83 times out of 100.  I can make up numbers too!

Did you know that 79% of statistics are made up on the spot?

But 93% of people will believe anything if you use a percentage.

55!!!!  ;D

...percent

You're right.
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Awaclus

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4921 on: June 03, 2015, 07:32:40 am »
+4

55!!!!

...percent

That's a lot of percents.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4922 on: June 03, 2015, 08:21:02 am »
0

Don't worry, when I do stats my fail rate is only 0.001 .

Well, rat is only good when trashing is good (Remodel and so on), right ? And Ratcatcher-rat ?
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Sidsel

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4923 on: June 03, 2015, 10:00:05 am »
+3

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LastFootnote

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #4924 on: June 03, 2015, 10:53:31 am »
0

I think Ratcatcher/Rats can be worth it if you're getting junked with Ruins/Curses, but probably not for your starting Estates/Shelters.
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