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Author Topic: Homage to the Best Card  (Read 2289281 times)

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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3525 on: June 04, 2014, 08:13:28 pm »
0

So KC KC Bridge Bridge Highway, draw KC Upgrade, KC Upgrade to get three Provinces

Oh, right.  That's the upside.  You can draw cards with the Highway without devaluing too many times.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3526 on: June 04, 2014, 09:01:51 pm »
0

No you can't!

Yes they can.

None of the others can trash any card in hand AND gain any card in the supply costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.  The others are all restricted in various ways.  Tsk tsk.
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3527 on: June 04, 2014, 09:06:00 pm »
0

No you can't!

Yes they can.

None of the others can trash any card in hand AND gain any card in the supply costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.  The others are all restricted in various ways.  Tsk tsk.

They also don't cost $7 and more or less suck horribly.  Hell, Mine is generally considered to be a weak $5 card.  It's not that any of them is rigorously strictly superior to Expand in literally every possible way... it's just that if I'm looking for Expand to do anything in particular, it's horribly outclassed at it in that particular case.  Unless you reeeeeeaaaally want to turn Gardens into Forges or something... who the hell knows.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3528 on: June 04, 2014, 09:15:30 pm »
+1

No you can't!

Yes they can.

None of the others can trash any card in hand AND gain any card in the supply costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.  The others are all restricted in various ways.  Tsk tsk.

They also don't cost $7 and more or less suck horribly.  Hell, Mine is generally considered to be a weak $5 card.  It's not that any of them is rigorously strictly superior to Expand in literally every possible way... it's just that if I'm looking for Expand to do anything in particular, it's horribly outclassed at it in that particular case.  Unless you reeeeeeaaaally want to turn Gardens into Forges or something... who the hell knows.

That's a bad argument though.  First of all, the card that does the specific function better might not be on the board.  Second, Expand might be beat at a specific thing by another card, but it still does things that card can't do. 

Let's consider Masquerade for a second.  If you want the draw, Courtyard gives you better selection.  If you want the trashing, Chapel lets you trash more.  If you want to pass junk to other players, Ambassador means you don't receive any junk back.  Man, Masquerade sure is outclassed in every way!

Seriously though, Expand usually isn't good, but I don't think it deserves so much hate.  Plus it has really sweet card art.
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3529 on: June 04, 2014, 09:29:39 pm »
0

Also, Expand sucks.

But it is strictly better than remodel
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3530 on: June 04, 2014, 09:30:44 pm »
0

No you can't!

Yes they can.

None of the others can trash any card in hand AND gain any card in the supply costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.  The others are all restricted in various ways.  Tsk tsk.

They also don't cost $7 and more or less suck horribly.  Hell, Mine is generally considered to be a weak $5 card.  It's not that any of them is rigorously strictly superior to Expand in literally every possible way... it's just that if I'm looking for Expand to do anything in particular, it's horribly outclassed at it in that particular case.  Unless you reeeeeeaaaally want to turn Gardens into Forges or something... who the hell knows.

That's a bad argument though.  First of all, the card that does the specific function better might not be on the board.  Second, Expand might be beat at a specific thing by another card, but it still does things that card can't do. 

Let's consider Masquerade for a second.  If you want the draw, Courtyard gives you better selection.  If you want the trashing, Chapel lets you trash more.  If you want to pass junk to other players, Ambassador means you don't receive any junk back.  Man, Masquerade sure is outclassed in every way!

Seriously though, Expand usually isn't good, but I don't think it deserves so much hate.  Plus it has really sweet card art.

Your examples aren't even in the same ballpark, though.  None of those cards can do what Masquerade is good at, though Ambassador is a close call - all it's missing is a two-card draw to filter through stuff.  And Ambassador is a strong $3 card.  Mine costs $5, and is usually sort of weak - mind you, Expand costs $7.

Mine is a lot better than Expand if you want treasure -> treasure.  There is no reason you'd want Expand if Mine is on the board for this, and "Mine might not be on the board" doesn't make Expand not suck.  Similarly, Rebuild blows Expand out of the water if you're going for VP - it's non-terminal, and it finds the VP for you (unless you drew them all, but ok).  Want to trash junk cards?  Altar still costs less, ties when trashing Estates, and is strictly better at trashing coppers and curses - like, by a lot.  Half the time, Expand is just a regrettable Upgrade in my hand that should've been a Gold.

I honestly don't know what he was thinking when he made Expand cost $7.  It might be strong at $5 or weak at $6, but at $7, it's the Scout of TFB cards, hands down.  If I started the game with Upgrade and Expand in my deck, I'd be more inclined to Upgrade my Expand for a Province than vice versa.
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3531 on: June 04, 2014, 09:31:29 pm »
0

Also, Expand sucks.

But it is strictly better than remodel

Not really, because you have to pay way more than it's worth and you're probably going to use it as a Remodel more often than not anyway.
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dondon151

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3532 on: June 04, 2014, 09:46:36 pm »
+4

I honestly don't know what he was thinking when he made Expand cost $7.  It might be strong at $5 or weak at $6, but at $7, it's the Scout of TFB cards, hands down.  If I started the game with Upgrade and Expand in my deck, I'd be more inclined to Upgrade my Expand for a Province than vice versa.

And I'd be inclined to expand Estates into $5s and upgrade away Coppers than do either of the things you mentioned. What's your point? If you disregard Expand on every board because you think it's the Scout of TfB cards, you can expect to lose a lot of games.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3533 on: June 04, 2014, 09:48:10 pm »
0

No you can't!

Yes they can.

None of the others can trash any card in hand AND gain any card in the supply costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.  The others are all restricted in various ways.  Tsk tsk.

They also don't cost $7 and more or less suck horribly.  Hell, Mine is generally considered to be a weak $5 card.  It's not that any of them is rigorously strictly superior to Expand in literally every possible way... it's just that if I'm looking for Expand to do anything in particular, it's horribly outclassed at it in that particular case.  Unless you reeeeeeaaaally want to turn Gardens into Forges or something... who the hell knows.

That's a bad argument though.  First of all, the card that does the specific function better might not be on the board.  Second, Expand might be beat at a specific thing by another card, but it still does things that card can't do. 

Let's consider Masquerade for a second.  If you want the draw, Courtyard gives you better selection.  If you want the trashing, Chapel lets you trash more.  If you want to pass junk to other players, Ambassador means you don't receive any junk back.  Man, Masquerade sure is outclassed in every way!

Seriously though, Expand usually isn't good, but I don't think it deserves so much hate.  Plus it has really sweet card art.

Your examples aren't even in the same ballpark, though.  None of those cards can do what Masquerade is good at, though Ambassador is a close call - all it's missing is a two-card draw to filter through stuff.  And Ambassador is a strong $3 card.  Mine costs $5, and is usually sort of weak - mind you, Expand costs $7.

Mine is a lot better than Expand if you want treasure -> treasure.  There is no reason you'd want Expand if Mine is on the board for this, and "Mine might not be on the board" doesn't make Expand not suck.  Similarly, Rebuild blows Expand out of the water if you're going for VP - it's non-terminal, and it finds the VP for you (unless you drew them all, but ok).  Want to trash junk cards?  Altar still costs less, ties when trashing Estates, and is strictly better at trashing coppers and curses - like, by a lot.  Half the time, Expand is just a regrettable Upgrade in my hand that should've been a Gold.

I honestly don't know what he was thinking when he made Expand cost $7.  It might be strong at $5 or weak at $6, but at $7, it's the Scout of TFB cards, hands down.  If I started the game with Upgrade and Expand in my deck, I'd be more inclined to Upgrade my Expand for a Province than vice versa.

I think you missed my point.  The Masquerade example is meant to show that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.  You can't just focus on any one specific effect.  With Masq, it's strong because all of those parts have synergy.  With Expand, it can sometimes be strong because it gives flexibility.

If you pick one specific function, sure, another card will beat it, but Expand lets you do more than any one of those cards.  You can go Curse->Silver or Estate->$5 action.  OK, Altar can do the same (and better with the Curse), but Expand provides additional utility in letting you trash into Province, among other things.

Again, yes, Expand is not great.  But it isn't Scout-tier.
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3534 on: June 04, 2014, 09:48:44 pm »
0

I honestly don't know what he was thinking when he made Expand cost $7.  It might be strong at $5 or weak at $6, but at $7, it's the Scout of TFB cards, hands down.  If I started the game with Upgrade and Expand in my deck, I'd be more inclined to Upgrade my Expand for a Province than vice versa.

If you disregard Expand on every board because you think it's the Scout of TfB cards, you can expect to lose a lot of games.

I doubt it...  Expand loses games.
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liopoil

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3535 on: June 04, 2014, 09:51:22 pm »
+1

expand is worth buying on boards where it is the only TfB and you want a TfB. This is a fairly large fraction of board with expand in it, but that doesn't make it good. If you disregard Expand on every board with another TfB, you can expect good things generally. Scout is the scout of all cards, e.i., ignore it if there are other cards, so Expand being the scout of TfB means ignore it if there are other TfB
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3536 on: June 04, 2014, 09:52:02 pm »
0

No you can't!

Yes they can.

None of the others can trash any card in hand AND gain any card in the supply costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.  The others are all restricted in various ways.  Tsk tsk.

They also don't cost $7 and more or less suck horribly.  Hell, Mine is generally considered to be a weak $5 card.  It's not that any of them is rigorously strictly superior to Expand in literally every possible way... it's just that if I'm looking for Expand to do anything in particular, it's horribly outclassed at it in that particular case.  Unless you reeeeeeaaaally want to turn Gardens into Forges or something... who the hell knows.

That's a bad argument though.  First of all, the card that does the specific function better might not be on the board.  Second, Expand might be beat at a specific thing by another card, but it still does things that card can't do. 

Let's consider Masquerade for a second.  If you want the draw, Courtyard gives you better selection.  If you want the trashing, Chapel lets you trash more.  If you want to pass junk to other players, Ambassador means you don't receive any junk back.  Man, Masquerade sure is outclassed in every way!

Seriously though, Expand usually isn't good, but I don't think it deserves so much hate.  Plus it has really sweet card art.

Your examples aren't even in the same ballpark, though.  None of those cards can do what Masquerade is good at, though Ambassador is a close call - all it's missing is a two-card draw to filter through stuff.  And Ambassador is a strong $3 card.  Mine costs $5, and is usually sort of weak - mind you, Expand costs $7.

Mine is a lot better than Expand if you want treasure -> treasure.  There is no reason you'd want Expand if Mine is on the board for this, and "Mine might not be on the board" doesn't make Expand not suck.  Similarly, Rebuild blows Expand out of the water if you're going for VP - it's non-terminal, and it finds the VP for you (unless you drew them all, but ok).  Want to trash junk cards?  Altar still costs less, ties when trashing Estates, and is strictly better at trashing coppers and curses - like, by a lot.  Half the time, Expand is just a regrettable Upgrade in my hand that should've been a Gold.

I honestly don't know what he was thinking when he made Expand cost $7.  It might be strong at $5 or weak at $6, but at $7, it's the Scout of TFB cards, hands down.  If I started the game with Upgrade and Expand in my deck, I'd be more inclined to Upgrade my Expand for a Province than vice versa.

I think you missed my point.  The Masquerade example is meant to show that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.  You can't just focus on any one specific effect.  With Masq, it's strong because all of those parts have synergy.  With Expand, it can sometimes be strong because it gives flexibility.

If you pick one specific function, sure, another card will beat it, but Expand lets you do more than any one of those cards.  You can go Curse->Silver or Estate->$5 action.  OK, Altar can do the same (and better with the Curse), but Expand provides additional utility in letting you trash into Province, among other things.

Again, yes, Expand is not great.  But it isn't Scout-tier.

Except Expand doesn't have a sum of parts to be better than.  All it grants is a little flexibility that can hardly ever justify buying it over a Gold.  There are times I'd pay $4 or $5 for one or two things Expand can do (and more), but there's no way I'd pay $7 to have all of them (and no more).  If I want Provinces, then in an actual game, Remodel and Gold will get there faster.
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Kirian

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3537 on: June 04, 2014, 09:57:59 pm »
+4

With $7 in hand, I think I'd buy Expand over Graverobber in most games.  I think that makes Expand the Harvest of TfB, with Graverobber being the Scout of TfB.

(By corollary, that makes Scout the Smithy of Magic: the Gathering, and Dominion the Settlers of Catan of Hearthstone.)
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3538 on: June 04, 2014, 09:58:51 pm »
0

expand is worth buying on boards where it is the only TfB and you want a TfB. This is a fairly large fraction of board with expand in it, but that doesn't make it good. If you disregard Expand on every board with another TfB, you can expect good things generally. Scout is the scout of all cards, e.i., ignore it if there are other cards, so Expand being the scout of TfB means ignore it if there are other TfB

Transmute gets a lot of hate, but you can throw a Potion and an extra buy at it for the lulz and maybe pick up some Golds and lose some Curses eventually.  Expand is so maddening because it *could* be a decent card, but the cost is insane.
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soulnet

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3539 on: June 04, 2014, 10:14:27 pm »
0

expand is worth buying on boards where it is the only TfB and you want a TfB. This is a fairly large fraction of board with expand in it, but that doesn't make it good. If you disregard Expand on every board with another TfB, you can expect good things generally. Scout is the scout of all cards, e.i., ignore it if there are other cards, so Expand being the scout of TfB means ignore it if there are other TfB

I would like to see you picking up a Remodel with $7 to spend and Expand on the board.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3540 on: June 04, 2014, 10:15:46 pm »
+1

I honestly don't know what he was thinking when he made Expand cost $7.  It might be strong at $5 or weak at $6, but at $7, it's the Scout of TFB cards, hands down.  If I started the game with Upgrade and Expand in my deck, I'd be more inclined to Upgrade my Expand for a Province than vice versa.

If you disregard Expand on every board because you think it's the Scout of TfB cards, you can expect to lose a lot of games.

I doubt it...  Expand loses games.

Here, have a log where two top players both use Expand to great effect.

If I want Provinces, then in an actual game, Remodel and Gold will get there faster.

Here, have another log where Stef uses Expand and Remodel.  Note that he uses Expand for the following:

Estate->Duchy
Watchtower->Gold
Saboteur->Province

No other card could have done all of those -- flexibility helps.
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dondon151

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3541 on: June 04, 2014, 11:07:54 pm »
0

I doubt it...  Expand loses games.

Except Expand doesn't have a sum of parts to be better than.  All it grants is a little flexibility that can hardly ever justify buying it over a Gold.  There are times I'd pay $4 or $5 for one or two things Expand can do (and more), but there's no way I'd pay $7 to have all of them (and no more).  If I want Provinces, then in an actual game, Remodel and Gold will get there faster.

I cannot be sure if you are trolling, or if you really are terribly misinformed.
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3542 on: June 04, 2014, 11:39:06 pm »
0

I doubt it...  Expand loses games.

Except Expand doesn't have a sum of parts to be better than.  All it grants is a little flexibility that can hardly ever justify buying it over a Gold.  There are times I'd pay $4 or $5 for one or two things Expand can do (and more), but there's no way I'd pay $7 to have all of them (and no more).  If I want Provinces, then in an actual game, Remodel and Gold will get there faster.

I cannot be sure if you are trolling, or if you really are terribly misinformed.

I really didn't think that there was likely to be a reason to buy it over a Gold.  I guess I'll have to look at those game logs, because apparently stronger players have found acceptable use cases.  In my games, it's always been a 3-for-1 really bad Mine taped to a really unreliable terminal Rebuild taped to a really overpriced Upgrade.
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Donald X.

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3543 on: June 04, 2014, 11:45:41 pm »
+16

I honestly don't know what he was thinking when he made Expand cost $7.  It might be strong at $5 or weak at $6, but at $7, it's the Scout of TFB cards, hands down.  If I started the game with Upgrade and Expand in my deck, I'd be more inclined to Upgrade my Expand for a Province than vice versa.
I was thinking, "well, so much for this costing $6." It didn't start at $7.

The $7 cost is something of a trick; it delays the average time it takes to get the card, but when you have $7 and are looking for what to buy, usually there's no other $7 and you don't have a +buy, and of course the money you don't spend doesn't stick around. You aren't "spending $7;" you're picking between Gold, good $5's, and Expand. Expand may not always win that fight but it certainly does sometimes. Costing $6 wouldn't change how good it was compared to Gold (except marginally for the worse due to things like Apprentice and Knights); it would just create more opportunities to make the choice (and then sometimes there would be another $7 or +buys).

At the time I wasn't focused on adding lots of tiny text to cards to hit the perfect value for experienced players while making them awful for normal players; I was making cards and then seeing what to charge for them. For normal players, I think Expand is great as is; it does something they want to do and they buy it and do it. Meanwhile experienced players get to decide when it's worth getting and when it isn't; it's not just worthless.

It makes no sense to compare it to Scout. Scout's effect is weak; Expand's is strong. You don't even need to consider opportunity cost for Scout; odds are you don't want it. When we set up a board in favor of Scout, then opportunity cost becomes the issue. But I always want Expand; there's no issue but opportunity cost. If I started the game with Upgrade and Expand in my deck, I would Upgrade Coppers and Expand Estates; it would be a while before I was ready to let go of either one.
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Donald X.

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3544 on: June 04, 2014, 11:46:48 pm »
+6

Here, have a log where two top players both use Expand to great effect.
It's not every day you Mint a Copper and win.
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Minotaur

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3545 on: June 04, 2014, 11:55:27 pm »
0

I've regretted getting Expand just about every time I've gotten it.  I guess if it's the only TfB, then it might be good for getting rid of Estates, but if anything else can either sift or destroy them, then that only leaves cannibalizing Duchies and $5 actions at the end of the game, and I usually go for Golds when I have $6 unless it's something great like Grand Market or Goons I'm looking at, or Adventurer after my Coppers have mostly been Moneylendered or some such.

I didn't think the image was going to be controversial.  I honestly find myself wishing I had one or two of the cards on the right instead of Expand to go for just about every time it's on the board.
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3546 on: June 05, 2014, 06:04:32 am »
0

Theoretical question: how much crazier would expand be if the 3 was a 4? Just asking because King's Court effectively does twice what throne room does once, so it wouldn't be completely out of left field to have expand have twice the effect of a remodel.
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3547 on: June 05, 2014, 09:39:32 am »
+2

Theoretical question: how much crazier would expand be if the 3 was a 4? Just asking because King's Court effectively does twice what throne room does once, so it wouldn't be completely out of left field to have expand have twice the effect of a remodel.

That is a nice idea. Especially because it allows $7-cost into Colony, which is something really Prosperity-y. Also, $4 into Province seems like a big deal, but if it is OP, it is not obviously OP to me. It is pretty good for engines that usually have an easier time getting lots of $4-costs than lots of $5-costs, but I don't think it would overtake KC as the strongest $7, for instance. For BM, it is the same as the current Expand, only it allows Estate->Gold, which is nice, not OP at all by the time you get to $7.
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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3548 on: June 05, 2014, 10:27:08 am »
+1

Theoretical question: how much crazier would expand be if the 3 was a 4? Just asking because King's Court effectively does twice what throne room does once, so it wouldn't be completely out of left field to have expand have twice the effect of a remodel.

Extrapolation time!

Double-Smithy; +6 cards, $7.
Double-Sea-Hag; $7; each opponent gets 2 curses.
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soulnet

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #3549 on: June 05, 2014, 10:34:05 am »
+2

Double-Smithy is actually +5 Cards, and it would be pretty strong at $7, but possibly not totally broken.
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