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Author Topic: Homage to the Best Card  (Read 2288809 times)

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Jimmmmm

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1475 on: January 16, 2013, 12:35:57 am »
0

Counterfeit.
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werothegreat

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1476 on: January 16, 2013, 12:37:20 am »
0

Counterfeit.

Adventurer doesn't work like Venture.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1477 on: January 16, 2013, 12:47:50 am »
0

Counterfeit.

Adventurer doesn't work like Venture.

Forgot to mention Black Market. :D
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1478 on: January 16, 2013, 01:24:46 am »
+1



I dare you to try and edge-case THAT one...

You already have four Treasures in hand, and no +Coin on the table so far.

That makes it essentially the same either way... but is there an edge case where playing Adventurer first is actually beneficial?  Hm...
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1479 on: January 16, 2013, 01:28:37 am »
0



I dare you to try and edge-case THAT one...

You already have four Treasures in hand, and no +Coin on the table so far.

That makes it essentially the same either way... but is there an edge case where playing Adventurer first is actually beneficial?  Hm...

Actually the Counterfeit is unnecessary. Play the Adventurer first so you have a larger handsize and thus are more likely to Cellar/Warehouse into your Black Market.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1480 on: January 16, 2013, 01:32:31 am »
+2

Actually the Counterfeit is unnecessary. Play the Adventurer first so you have a larger handsize and thus are more likely to Cellar/Warehouse into your Black Market.

The meme is about Golem into Adventurer + Poor House... where does Cellar/Warehouse come into it?

I think AdamH has truly found something that cannot be edge cased.  I don't think there is any reason whatsoever you would ever be better off playing Adventurer before Poor House (as a consequence of Golem).
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 01:33:41 am by eHalcyon »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1481 on: January 16, 2013, 01:45:21 am »
0

Right. Forgot about the Golem part. :-[ Carry on.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1482 on: January 16, 2013, 06:23:14 am »
+1

Actually the Counterfeit is unnecessary. Play the Adventurer first so you have a larger handsize and thus are more likely to Cellar/Warehouse into your Black Market.

The meme is about Golem into Adventurer + Poor House... where does Cellar/Warehouse come into it?

I think AdamH has truly found something that cannot be edge cased.  I don't think there is any reason whatsoever you would ever be better off playing Adventurer before Poor House (as a consequence of Golem).

If you have Contraband and lots of coins worth of treasure, you might want to keep the virtual coin count low in hopes that, say, Grand Market isn't blocked.  Now we're getting into mind games though.
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AdamH

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1483 on: January 16, 2013, 07:35:49 am »
+3

If you have Contraband and lots of coins worth of treasure, you might want to keep the virtual coin count low in hopes that, say, Grand Market isn't blocked.  Now we're getting into mind games though.

PH reveals your hand.

I think AdamH has truly found something that cannot be edge cased.  I don't think there is any reason whatsoever you would ever be better off playing Adventurer before Poor House (as a consequence of Golem).

 ;D +1 for you, sir!
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SirPeebles

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1484 on: January 16, 2013, 09:44:07 am »
+3

Well, I promised a meme.

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SirPeebles

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1485 on: January 16, 2013, 09:52:29 am »
0

If you have Contraband and lots of coins worth of treasure, you might want to keep the virtual coin count low in hopes that, say, Grand Market isn't blocked.  Now we're getting into mind games though.

PH reveals your hand.


Hmm.  Well, I have spare actions, and through of many possible scenarios am about to gain a Contraband to the top of my deck and then draw it.  I still see Contraband as the best chance at constructing an edge case.
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AdamH

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1486 on: January 16, 2013, 10:40:55 am »
+2

In either case, though, all the cards revealed to your opponent are exactly the same. The only difference is that you have less (or equal in the best case) virtual coin.

Looks you can construct a case where having less virtual coin could help you here, and it looks like it would have to be with Contraband:

Adventurer finds two treasures, decreasing your PH by $2, and needing the Contraband play gets you that extra $1 you need to buy your card*. Either that or you really really need the extra buy.

Either of these cases involves suboptimal play by your opponent -- it's not a mind game at this point, I believe it falls under suboptimal play; which means this 'edge case' boils down to "if I play suboptimally then maybe my opponent will play suboptimally as well and I'll come off better out of the exchange."

*Incidentally, if you only get one treasure with Adventurer and decrease your PH value by $1, your opponent must know how much money you have at the end of your turn (or do they? Is there any way to discard or trash during your turn where your opponent doesn't know what is in your hand?)

...or, you can just gain two more (different) treasures later in your turn and draw a portion of your deck. OK, nevermind. You can get treasures in your hand your opponent doesn't know about and still only lose $1 to the PH if that's what you want.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1487 on: January 16, 2013, 11:21:54 am »
+2

In either case, though, all the cards revealed to your opponent are exactly the same.

Man I just spent 15 minutes typing up an edge case that I thought worked, and then saw this... I had been forgetting that Adventurer would reveal the drawn cards to your opponent. So you aren't giving your opponent more information by playing Adventurer first. :(
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 11:29:09 am by GendoIkari »
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Axxle

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1488 on: January 16, 2013, 01:49:59 pm »
0

If you still have actions, you can play labs or something and you have hidden information.
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ftl

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1489 on: January 16, 2013, 01:52:21 pm »
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Nope. Adventurer and Poorhouse will be the next two actions played, they got golem'd. The PH happens before the labs anyway.
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Axxle

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1490 on: January 16, 2013, 02:35:39 pm »
+3

I mean for the whole Contraband mindgames later.

Draw Copper, Contraband with Adventurer,
play Poor house, get +2
Play Lab, draw Gold whatever
Play Contraband, you can't buy gold
Buy Grand Market.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 02:38:31 pm by Axxle »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1491 on: January 16, 2013, 02:39:12 pm »
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I mean for the whole Contraband mindgames later.

That still doesn't give you a benefit to playing Adventurer first.  At best, you can make the situation such that it doesn't matter which is played first.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1492 on: January 16, 2013, 02:41:31 pm »
+4

I mean for the whole Contraband mindgames later.

That still doesn't give you a benefit to playing Adventurer first.  At best, you can make the situation such that it doesn't matter which is played first.

No, because if you'd played Poor House first, then your opponent would know that you have $6 without Copper. By playing Adventurer first, your opponent only knows that you have $5 without Copper, and $6 with Copper, so he's more likely to proscribe Gold instead of Grand Market.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1493 on: January 16, 2013, 02:54:24 pm »
+1

I mean for the whole Contraband mindgames later.

That still doesn't give you a benefit to playing Adventurer first.  At best, you can make the situation such that it doesn't matter which is played first.

No, because if you'd played Poor House first, then your opponent would know that you have $6 without Copper. By playing Adventurer first, your opponent only knows that you have $5 without Copper, and $6 with Copper, so he's more likely to proscribe Gold instead of Grand Market.

Ohh.  I get it now.

Man, that's the edgiest of edge cases.
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Axxle

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1494 on: January 16, 2013, 02:59:16 pm »
+2

We did it, guys!
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AdamH

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1495 on: January 16, 2013, 03:03:13 pm »
+1

In that situation, if you had played PH first, you would not need to play the Contraband in order to buy your GM; you lose nothing in this case by playing PH first.

BTW, If you get to claim knowledge of the rest of your turn before making the PH/Adventurer decision, then I do as well.

---------------

You and your opponent both know that you have a chance for virtual coin and you've turned it down (with no other benefits at all). Then some other stuff happened on your turn. Now, best case, you've played a Contraband and nothing else, and your opponent has no idea what your spending power is.

Now, convince me that an opponent who does not proscribe the card you want the most would be doing so because you turned down the virtual coins. I assert that your opponent is playing suboptimally in this case.

You can edge-case anything if you assume your opponent will play sub-optimally as a result of it. Since you have to use Contraband here, I think it only counts as an edge case if your opponent continues to play optimally, and his best move would change as a result of your having less virtual coins. Without that logical step, you can have stuff like this:

"It can be beneficial to [do Bad Thing], because then my opponent will start to play sub-optimally and [Do Even Worse Thing] and lose!"
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GendoIkari

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1496 on: January 16, 2013, 03:08:33 pm »
0

In that situation, if you had played PH first, you would not need to play the Contraband in order to buy your GM; you lose nothing in this case by playing PH first.

Just replace that Gold you drew from Lab with a Talisman, or other $1 non-copper treasure, and it works.
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AdamH

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1497 on: January 16, 2013, 03:39:05 pm »
+1

So you turn down up to $2 in virtual coin and your opponent doesn't know what's in your hand. Your case is you don't want to show $6 in non-copper treasure when you play Contraband. If your assumption is that your opponent will proscribe GM in this case, then I assert it would be at least as sub-optimal for your opponent to not proscribe GM as it was for you to take the risk in the first place.

In fact, even if you know it will turn out this way and your opponent doesn't, you'll be at the mercy of your opponent to not proscribe GM in either case, and it's still sub-optimal for your opponent to proscribe anything but GM.

So what this example shows is that you can hurt your buying power on a turn in order to feign weakness using Contraband. But a competent opponent will (at the very least) see you voluntarily turn down virtual money and know something is up. That breaks your assumption that an (incompetent) opponent would blindly not proscribe GM when you are showing less than $6 in non-copper treasure and still have at least one playable card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1498 on: January 16, 2013, 03:55:36 pm »
+1

So you turn down up to $2 in virtual coin and your opponent doesn't know what's in your hand. Your case is you don't want to show $6 in non-copper treasure when you play Contraband. If your assumption is that your opponent will proscribe GM in this case, then I assert it would be at least as sub-optimal for your opponent to not proscribe GM as it was for you to take the risk in the first place.

In fact, even if you know it will turn out this way and your opponent doesn't, you'll be at the mercy of your opponent to not proscribe GM in either case, and it's still sub-optimal for your opponent to proscribe anything but GM.

So what this example shows is that you can hurt your buying power on a turn in order to feign weakness using Contraband. But a competent opponent will (at the very least) see you voluntarily turn down virtual money and know something is up. That breaks your assumption that an (incompetent) opponent would blindly not proscribe GM when you are showing less than $6 in non-copper treasure and still have at least one playable card.

Yeah, I have to agree.

Edge case... you are winning, it's your turn, there's 1 Province left, and you have $8 to spend. When should you buy Duchy instead of Province?

You're playing adventure mode on Goko and need more points to get 3 stars.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Homage to the Best Card
« Reply #1499 on: January 16, 2013, 03:57:24 pm »
+3

OK, your hand is Shanty Town Smithy Golem Copper Estate.

You play ST and then Golem, finding PH and Adventurer.

In the example we've been talking about, Adventurer draws Copper and Contraband.  But we can't know that beforehand.  So this is a problem in the example.  But let's say you are really good at tracking your deck and there are only two cards left; Golem and Adventurer flipped through everything else so you know that the last two cards are Copper and Contraband.  This is an edge case.  This is allowed.

So you know your Adventurer will draw Copper and Contraband.

A) If you play PH first, you would get +$3 virtual coin and have in hand Contraband, 2 Copper and a Smithy that you can play.  You have $6 in non-Copper coin and your opponent knows it.

B) If you play Adventurer first, you get +$1 virtual coin and have in hand Contraband, 2 Copper and a Smithy that you can play.  You have $4 in non-Copper coin, plus 2 Copper on top of that.

You play Smithy.  Who knows what you have now!

You are still building your deck, so forget about buying Province.  You prefer Grand Market, then Gold, then other things.  And your opponent knows this.

In case A, your opponent knows for sure that you can afford that Grand Market by playing Contraband.  It's an easy ban for the opponent.

In case B, your opponent doesn't know that!  He thus has a choice:

1) Ban Grand Market.  You buy Gold, possibly something else thanks to your Smithy draw.
2) Ban Gold.  Best case for him is that you still can't afford GM, and now you can't buy Gold either.  Worst case for him is that you did indeed draw a Silver or something so you can now buy GM.

I don't think either 1 or 2 is clearly more optimal play for your opponent.  He doesn't want you to get GM, but even better if he prevents you from getting Gold as well.  It's a risk.

Note that your own play here is a bit of a risk as well because you don't know what you'll end up drawing with Smithy either.  but again, I don't think one way or the other is clearly optimal.  By playing Adventurer first you give up the chance of (most likely) getting Gold for sure in exchange for a chance to get GM.  Your opponent has a choice of letting you have Gold for sure or possibly keeping you from both GM and Gold.
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