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[AdamH]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20141104/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1415155733164.txt

EDIT: Oasis, Advisor, Caravan, Death Cart, Ironmonger, Remodel, Treasure Map, Explorer, Wharf, Fairgrounds, Provinces/Estates

Presented without comment.

So Fairgrounds, worth it here? Also, how about a Remodel opening?

[soulnet]

Code: [Select]

Oasis, Advisor, Caravan, Death Cart, Ironmonger, Remodel, Treasure Map, Explorer, Wharf, Fairgrounds
I would open Oasis/Ironmonger, as they are pretty good to hit $5 and you want those Wharves. Explorer can give in-hand Golds and you can even get Treasure Maps once you have a drawing engine, but you won't be swimming in Actions here, and piles are likely to run (especially Ironmongers). I would get IMs with every $4 for a long time. I think the engine has to outrun Wharf/BM by a lot, especially with the additional Province pile .

BM variants will lose greatly here, and the Fairgrounds slog... meh, it may work, but you have no endgame control and the engine is pretty good. You need to start engine and maybe go into slog-mode afterwards. I would probably still build the engine. Piles are likely to run, and endgame control is everything when piles are low. The slog does not score enough points to lock the game fast enough, and has no way of slowing down the engine. I will gladly play this one if someone wants to, it looks fun.

[AdamH]

I will gladly play this one if someone wants to, it looks fun.

Want to play it now?

[liopoil]

Engine no contest. I want remodel on the second time, I hit 4 - open ironmonger/oasis like soul net said. After that I probably pile the ironmongers while picking up a wharf or two. Definitely Fairgrounds. After ironmongers are gone get advisor over caravan and a death cart before greening.

[JacquesTheBard]

Engine naturally, but I'm quite skeptical of the Remodel opening. You won't really be able to use it on your coppers, so its ability to thin you is limited. Gains from it are nice, but it has a high opportunity cost on two levels:

1. When you buy it, that's a $4 that could have been Ironmonger.

2. When it's in your deck, you will sometimes dead-draw it with Wharf. More consistently, you will simply have too few actions to play both Remodel and Wharf in the same turn. If you don't play Remodel, it's actually clogging your deck up, not cleaning it. And if you don't play Wharf... I think we all know what happens there.

Trashing comes first in most cases. If there were a trasher like Develop or something that could actually hit coppers without feeding you estates, opening it would be a clear move. Remodel, though, is only good at trashing things with a cost higher than 0.

[dondon151]

1. When you buy it, that's a $4 that could have been Ironmonger.

But chances are that the first time you play it, you trash an Estate, gaining an Ironmonger. The real problem is that you don't want to risk not hitting $5 for Wharf on the reshuffle, and Remodel is also slightly contraindicated if you open Oasis.

[Titandrake]

Ironmonger opening > Remodel opening for reasons said earlier, you really want to make sure you hit $5 for Wharf. I can't see myself picking up Remodel for a long time. To be worth it, you want that Remodel to get you 2 Ironmongers, since if it gets just one you could have bought an Ironmonger in the first place, and the cycling from it early should beat out whatever else you can Remodel into that shuffle.

Fairgrounds is something I'd get as another source of VP, but I wouldn't directly go for getting it up to 6 VP unless I needed to. Death Cart for Ruins is alright, but if both players go for the engine, piles will run low really fast, and the Ruins actually will slow you down enough to be a problem in 3-pile scenarios.

[dondon151]

To be worth it, you want that Remodel to get you 2 Ironmongers, since if it gets just one you could have bought an Ironmonger in the first place, and the cycling from it early should beat out whatever else you can Remodel into that shuffle.

That's not strictly true. If you use Remodel to gain Ironmonger, you have 1 more Action card in your deck and 1 fewer non-Action card in your deck, which makes it easier to get +Action with Ironmonger.

There are also several good $4s in this kingdom; Caravan is a good alternative if Ironmonger is gone, and Advisor isn't terrible, either.

[Joseph2302]

What do I think? I think you make your own shuffle luck.

[AdamH]

What do I think? I think you make your own shuffle luck.

Ok time to comment. Of course ymyosl, but after turn 5 of this game I had pretty much no chance of winning it, yeah? That's not exactly what I'm wondering about though.

After this game we were talking and I was very sure that you want to go for fairgrounds over province, I think it would have been better for him, but realistically he could have done anything he wanted and won.

Building an engine is clearly what you want to do, I was more asking about what flavor of green card you would want.

As for remodel, whether to open with it or pick it up on the next shuffle is up for debate, but I think you still want it, right? I mean you probably aren't going to remodel coppers but one the estates are gone I still think it's pretty useful, especially if you're going for fairgrounds.

This board was a really clear call for me: on 4/3 open remodel/oasis and build the wharf engine and go for fairgrounds. I'm wondering why one would ignore remodel and why one would ignore fairgrounds.

[silverspawn]

I think you go for Fairgrounds over Provinces.

The opening buys are a tough call. I could see any combination of (Oasis/Silver) + (Ironmonger/Remodel). I'm leaning towards remodel; not trashing your estates seems like suicidal in the long run, even though you really want wharves early, and remodel could backfire here. I don't particularly like picking up remodel later.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I don't think it makes sense to talk about going for Fairgrounds over Provinces, they aren't mutually exclusive. Obviously you need to consider Fairgrounds in what you're doing. In really long games your deck will surely want some of both. But there's also a chance for an early 3 pile, which may favor taking 1-2 Provinces (or 1-2 Fairgrounds, or 1-2 Duchies, or 1-2 Estates, it just depends on your draws) and ending the game.

The Remodel thing I am not sure about, on 4/3 I probably open with it (mainly because Ironmonger isn't the only good target here, as dondon said). I don't think I like coming back for it on the 5/2 like you did, but it worked out a lot worse for you than it will on average. I am not a fan of all the Oases, I think at least one should be Silver.

[silverspawn]

I think it does make sense, because you don't want more than 1 province in a game where you plan to reach 15 uniques, maybe even zero. Every other province is usually just a waste of money. And you can, and often should, plan this ahead.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I think it does make sense, because you don't want more than 1 province in a game where you plan to reach 15 uniques, maybe even zero. Every other province is usually just a waste of money. And you can, and often should, plan this ahead.

Planning to get 15 uniques ≠ getting to 15 uniques before the game ends. There are lots of cases where you want more than 1 Province even if you "plan" to get 15 uniques. They are 6 points immediately, without additional fiddling. You can only make statements like "don't want more than 1 Province" once both decks have reached fairly specific states which are not at all guaranteed to be reached in this game.

This "planning" nonsense makes people play worse than they could because they don't take proper advantage of shuffles, not nearly greedy or opportunistic enough. Or on the flip side, they don't know how to recover and give themselves a better shot at winning when their plans don't work.

You should give yourself opportunities to get 6 VP Fairgrounds here, you should never require yourself to do it.

[markusin]

I think it does make sense, because you don't want more than 1 province in a game where you plan to reach 15 uniques, maybe even zero. Every other province is usually just a waste of money. And you can, and often should, plan this ahead.

Planning to get 15 uniques ≠ getting to 15 uniques before the game ends. There are lots of cases where you want more than 1 Province even if you "plan" to get 15 uniques. They are 6 points immediately, without additional fiddling. You can only make statements like "don't want more than 1 Province" once both decks have reached fairly specific states which are not at all guaranteed to be reached in this game.

This "planning" nonsense makes people play worse than they could because they don't take proper advantage of shuffles, not nearly greedy or opportunistic enough. Or on the flip side, they don't know how to recover and give themselves a better shot at winning when their plans don't work.

You should give yourself opportunities to get 6 VP Fairgrounds here, you should never require yourself to do it.

This reminds me that I'm always confused as to what to do when I'm going for a Dukes but spike $8 once Duchies are gone.

[silverspawn]

This reminds me that I'm always confused as to what to do when I'm going for a Dukes but spike $8 once Duchies are gone.

buy a province

[markusin]

This reminds me that I'm always confused as to what to do when I'm going for a Dukes but spike $8 once Duchies are gone.

buy a province

Seems right. At least, gotta be correct if you've won the Duchy split.

Still feels icky somehow.

[amalloy]

This reminds me that I'm always confused as to what to do when I'm going for a Dukes but spike $8 once Duchies are gone.

buy a province

Seems right. At least, gotta be correct if you've won the Duchy split.

Still feels icky somehow.

You prefer Duchy over Province early because they will be making your Dukes stronger later. Preferring Duke over Province doesn't make as much sense: Duke is worth 5 (or whatever), and Province is worth 6. You take the one that's worth more and is harder to get to: you can get the Duke more easily later than the Province. And it's even more important if you lost the Duchy split: why are you giving up 3 points and shortening the game when you're already behind?

[Davio]

I'm more inclined to buy an £8 Duchy than a Province.

[soulnet]

I'm more inclined to buy an £8 Duchy than a Province.

For £8 you can buy a Colony

[Davio]

Well, as Dominion is set in the middle ages, English currency is a better fit than that of a country which didn't exist at the time.

[soulnet]

Well, as Dominion is set in the middle ages, English currency is a better fit than that of a country which didn't exist at the time.

Did you just throw a glove at my face?

[ehunt]

This is a little flawed  but i just want to point out that the decision to buy duke or province w/8 has little to do with how many points they are worth for you in 2p -- you should just buy province.

province vs. duke w/8: suppose you have x duchies and the opponent has 8-x (this is a reasonable assumption as otherwise you should be deciding between province and duchy.)

duke = x points for you + denies (8-x) points to opponent. total value = 8.
province = 6 points for you + denies 6 points to opponent. total value = 12.

the biggest flaw in this reasoning is that endgame considerations are important and this ignores them -- forcing your opponent to buy the whole province pile may be the only way to buy time to pick up enough dukes to win. but i still think it's a good perspective.

[markusin]

I mostly see buying Duke as a way to speed up the three pile ending. The situation where it does so is pretty common.

[liopoil]

Often when I go duchy/duke and my opponent goes for provinces I will take the duke over province, often because there are only 2 or 3 provinces left and I haven't caught up on points yet. (3-pile isn't a threat)