Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: timed dominion  (Read 5458 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

flies

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 629
  • Shuffle iT Username: flies
  • Statistical mechanics of hard rods on a 1D lattice
  • Respect: +348
    • View Profile
    • ask the atheists
timed dominion
« on: October 31, 2014, 02:38:22 pm »
+2

How would you do design a play-clock that would tighten the amount of time you had to make decisions?  In comparison to chess, games in dominion take variable amounts of time for various reasons.  I mean, would the clock make you not want to get scrying pool?  I'm assuming we don't want that, so how do you do it? X amount of time between each during-turn decision and Y amount of time during buy phase?  a clock that gets incremented every action you play? (up to some max?)

(I personally enjoy taking my time with decisions, but this seems like it's worth pontificating on.)

h/t to liopoil and Polk5440 for the idea behind this thread.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 02:39:47 pm by flies »
Logged
Gotta be efficient when most of your hand coordination is spent trying to apply mascara to your beard.
flies Dominionates on youtube

2.71828.....

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1290
  • Shuffle iT Username: irrationalE
  • Respect: +1322
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2014, 03:00:54 pm »
+3

That is an interesting idea.  To go back to comparing it with chess, when watching WW's stream I will occasionally watch him play speed  chess.  I forget exactly what app he plays it on, but he can set the timer to 1:00, 5:00, 10:00, or whatever.  It is still chess, but the game is completely different depending on what amount of time you allot for the game.  1:00 for all your turns (so 2:00 combined) is totally different than a 5:00 timer, which is again completely different than an untimed game. 

Basically, I think I would really enjoy playing this way, but when playing you just have to remember that it is a completely different game than untimed dominion.  Also, you have to remember that you can't just make a play in a split second.  To buy and play action cards there is a lot more interaction than you would have with chess.  And therefore a lot more time.  And then inter-player interaction within turns would do strange things to how you keep time.  And then the different cards would effect how long you need.

Ok, continuing with stream of conscious thoughts:  What if everyone started at 0:00, and your timer goes up for how long you take making decisions, and your opponent's timer goes up when he is making decisions.  Then do something with the total time, number of turns, dividing those numbers in some way, translating to VPs, and then adding to the overall score?  I don't know.
Logged
Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2227
  • Respect: +7140
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2014, 03:13:20 pm »
+2

I'd love something like "Your Clock = min(t_you, t_opponent) + 2 minutes", where t_you is the time you've taken so far during the game, and t_opponent is the same number for your opponent. It also slightly decreases FPA because P2 can think about the board during P1's turn.

I'd also love that 2 minutes to be something like 30 seconds to get some really hectic stuff going, so just make the number user definable. Anyone feel like coding it into Salvager? :D
Logged

Polk5440

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1708
  • Respect: +1788
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2014, 03:26:31 pm »
+1

There are lots of ways to time. The only real tweak from chess is that the clock should run whenever you are expected to make a decision, not whenever it's your turn.

I have in mind three different ways that clocked games could be adapted to Dominion:
1) Total time. When time runs out, you lose. You want to take a risk building a super complicated engine? Don't get clocked out. Obviously the easiest to implement and guarantees a fixed amount of time per game for people who value that.
2) Delay. You get a few second cushion (1 second? 3 seconds?) where the clock does NOT run when you play a card. This allows for a cushion for showing animations and for playing engines while keeping the "thinking time" fixed per game.
3) Bonus Time. In chess, some formats allow for extra time after a certain number of moves to allow for players to play for a more complicated game. Dominion can't do the exact equivalent because long games can take not that many turns, but you can do bonus time after playing a certain number of cards. This could be fun because the bonus would trigger differently for each player depending on how the game plays out.

#2 is what I had in mind when I brought up clocked games in the other thread.

Logged

Polk5440

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1708
  • Respect: +1788
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2014, 03:29:20 pm »
0

It also slightly decreases FPA because P2 can think about the board during P1's turn.

I also like this side effect of clocked games. Player 2 gets to use player 1's time to think on the first turn.

If this is a problem it can be off-set by tweaking when the clocks start.
Logged

Hydrad

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
  • Shuffle iT Username: Hidrad
  • Respect: +109
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2014, 03:30:35 pm »
+1

It also slightly decreases FPA because P2 can think about the board during P1's turn.

I also like this side effect of clocked games. Player 2 gets to use player 1's time to think on the first turn.

If this is a problem it can be off-set by tweaking when the clocks start.

In chess usually the timer starts after both players take their first move. So maybe it could be the same thing so you could analyze the board a bit?
Logged
For anyone else, such a statement would be a scum tell.  For Hydrad, it's simply a tell that you're reading something from Hydrad.

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1722
  • Respect: +1757
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2014, 03:36:19 pm »
0

I think a format with the "Delay" idea would work great.  Other options, I'm not so sure of.  If there is a good engine that is too complicated, it could just lose to Big Money because it takes too long to play.

Honestly, the "Delay" mode should be used for all games to prevent slow play. There should be a reasonable amount of thinking time (I don't know... 30 seconds) per decision (or more ideally, a variable amount based on the decision), and then a 5 minute pool of extra time for other decisions during the game instead of 5 minutes between every action. 

Eh, or that is just a big waste of effort, and a intelligent slow play detector should just boot you out if you wait 5 minutes between each Copper play (or other obvious slowplays).
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 03:37:49 pm by Deadlock39 »
Logged

Hugovj

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 262
  • Shuffle iT Username: Hugovj
  • DFTBA
  • Respect: +176
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2014, 04:00:30 pm »
0

Well, firstly, this would be terrible for streaming games. So I think this has to be a option or something.

I don't like the idea of a huge advantage for player two. Let's say you take 3 minutes examining a board. You got 15 minutes playing time (say we implemented option 2). This means you have a 3 minute gap to bridge already, and that's quite some time. This would give player two a big edge, and I think player one won't have too much of an advantage too make the playing field really even. So I would say the time should start when player one plays his first copper or something.

I do like this idea though :)

Joseph2302

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 858
  • Shuffle iT Username: Joseph2302
  • "Better to be lucky than good"
  • Respect: +575
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2014, 04:25:47 pm »
+2

I think in principle it's a good idea, but it's so hard to judge, as Dominion games are so varied in game length and how long each decision takes.

As an example, earlier today I played an ironworks/gardens rush which lasted about 3 minutes for the whole game. A big engine game can easily take 3-5 minutes each turn.
Logged
Mafia Stats: (correct as of 2017)
Town: 22 games, 8 wins
Scum: 5 games, 3 wins

Polk5440

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1708
  • Respect: +1788
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2014, 04:36:35 pm »
0

I forget exactly what app he plays it on, but he can set the timer to 1:00, 5:00, 10:00, or whatever.  It is still chess, but the game is completely different depending on what amount of time you allot for the game.  1:00 for all your turns (so 2:00 combined) is totally different than a 5:00 timer, which is again completely different than an untimed game. 

I want to emphasize this. Timed games really are different. It often changes the game more so than just "play faster".

The chess analogy is apt here. You simply avoid certain openings and styles of play when you play 1 minute games. You don't put yourself in a position where you need lots of time to play decently.

Timed Dominion games would also change the calculus of HOW you play certain kingdom.
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2479
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2014, 05:12:56 pm »
+1

It also slightly decreases FPA because P2 can think about the board during P1's turn.

I also like this side effect of clocked games. Player 2 gets to use player 1's time to think on the first turn.

If this is a problem it can be off-set by tweaking when the clocks start.

In chess usually the timer starts after both players take their first move. So maybe it could be the same thing so you could analyze the board a bit?
This is not the case in chess. It is still a good idea for dominion I think.

In chess a clock is pretty much mandatory for a serious game because it is almost always beneficial to keep thinking without a clock. Dominion you can figure out what you want to do withing a couple minutes pretty much always, so a clock isn't as important.  Still, it would be fun to have more exciting games in less time. Here's how I would implement timed Dominion:

1) Unlimited (or at least a couple minutes) time for the first two turns - to deal with Goko loading slower for some and for kingdom analysis
2) 1 second delay after each play
3) When you run out of time, you lose, obviously
4) Two player games only
5) Options for time limit. I think anything between 1 minute and half an hour is playable
6) 5 second extra delay for each turn (first 5 seconds of non 1-second delay don't count). Remove this delay for faster time controls.

With these delays, I would go for an engine pretty much just as often. The only deterrent would be ones that require precise play to be competitive with the non-engine, which is pretty rate.
Logged

enfynet

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1691
  • Respect: +1162
    • View Profile
    • JD's Custom Clubs
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2014, 05:16:07 pm »
+1

I think I'm going to set a timer on my iPod next time I play as an experiment.
Logged
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious."

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2849
  • Respect: +1559
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2014, 05:47:39 pm »
0

Hearthstone uses a fixed time per turn, which works surprisingly well and is dead simple. The major difference in Dominion is that you need a lot of time to analyze the kingdom and big turns are bigger and more common. So I'd say allow a certain fixed amount of time for kingdom analysis as liopoil suggests, then for each turn allow a fixed amount of time, plus a bonus for each card played as Polk5440 suggests.

The downside any clock system needs to avoid is overpowering BM+X and studied combos. Piloting a weak engine requires more time, not just to play cards but to get your buys just right, and are very sensitive to mistakes.
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2320
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2014, 07:08:48 pm »
+1

I'm not really interested in a timed variant to prevent games running too long, as it's not a problem I come across.  I do think Blitz Dominion could be fun though.  I'm not even sure I'd make any allowance for playing lots of cards: if you want to play an intricate engine under time pressure, that's your call.
Logged

2.71828.....

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1290
  • Shuffle iT Username: irrationalE
  • Respect: +1322
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2014, 07:11:22 pm »
0

I'm not really interested in a timed variant to prevent games running too long, as it's not a problem I come across.  I do think Blitz Dominion could be fun though.  I'm not even sure I'd make any allowance for playing lots of cards: if you want to play an intricate engine under time pressure, that's your call.

yeah, that is my worry:  that these games would end up mostly being BM+X
Logged
Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.

ThaddeusB

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 133
  • Respect: +140
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2014, 07:54:06 pm »
+1

On FICS (free internet chess server), people set the time limits when they create a game.  Usually the format is X minutes+Y seconds per move.  (So is it is say 15 seconds per move and a move takes 10 seconds you have have 2:05 left on the clock.)  Change that to Y seconds per action and it could work just fine for Dominion.  Moves are time stamped by the software so if there is connection lag, it doesn't hurt you.  If I recall correctly (its been a while), the clock starts after the first move so that is someone's board loads slow or isn't paying attention the second it opens, they are't hurt.  First moves in chess are trivial (i.e. pre-planned), but in Dminion that facet would allow time to analyze the kingdom.
Logged

Beyond Awesome

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2941
  • Shuffle iT Username: Beyond Awesome
  • Respect: +2466
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2014, 07:56:03 pm »
0

I think less skilled players are the ones who worry more about playing fast or slow play when they are losing. So for most of us I doubt a click is really needed.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3846
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2437
    • View Profile
Re: timed dominion
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2014, 08:18:43 pm »
0

I think less skilled players are the ones who worry more about playing fast or slow play when they are losing. So for most of us I doubt a click is really needed.
The world is bigger than this forum. Plus, we like delving into theoretical stuff.

I like the idea of fixed time per turn plus a bonus per card play. No matter how a clock is designed, the time needed for your opponent to make a decision while it's your turn needs to be addressed. At the very least, it can't could towards the current player's timer.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.125 seconds with 21 queries.