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Author Topic: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random  (Read 16661 times)

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silverspawn

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+1

:) ahem. Showdown did all of these, I just provided the ideas. So, here are our "fixes" for some official cards. I tried to leave the inherent function of each card intact, and only tweak it a little bit. They are hd images, so they should be easily printable and handily replace the original card.

Talisman, Harvest, and P3$ cards to come. And, if someone has suggestions, we could do those too.


Quote
Adventurer - Action - 6$
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 3 Treasure cards. Put those Treasure cards into your hand and discard the other revealed cards.



Quote
Rebuild - Action - 5$
+1 Action
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Discard the other cards. Return the Victory card to the Supply and gain a Victory card costing up to 3$ more than it.



Quote
Scout - Action - 4$
+1 Action
+1$
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.



Quote
Transmute - Action - P$
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.
If it is an...
Action card, gain a Duchy.
Treasure card, gain a Transmute.
Victory card, gain a Gold.



Quote
Transmute - Action - P$
Trash a card from your hand.
If it is an...
Action card, gain a Duchy.
Treasure card, gain a Transmute.
Victory card, gain a Gold.
---
When you buy this, +1 Buy.



Quote
Talisman - Treasure - 4$
Worth 1$
---
While this is in play, when you buy a card costing 4$ or less, gain a copy of it.



Quote
Scrying Pool - Action - 2P$
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal one that is not an Action. Put all revealed cards into your hand.



Quote
Harvest - Action - 5$
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck, put one back and discard the rest. +1$ per differently named card revealed.


Quote
Minion - Action - 5$
Choose one: 2$; or discard your hand and +4 cards.


Quote
Alchemist - Action - 2$P
 - Ability unchanged -


Quote
Familiar - Action - 2$P
 - Ability unchanged -


Quote
Philosopher's Stone - Treasure - 2$P
 - Ability unchanged -

or click here to view them all
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 02:52:57 pm by silverspawn »
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liopoil

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2014, 07:39:23 am »
+2

rebuild and scrying pools still really good, scout transmute and adventurer still really weak. But much better :). They can't all be perfectly average strength
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2014, 10:17:48 am »
0

Haha. You could have just posted this stuff in the other thread. :D

Obviously the Transmute change makes it stronger, but absolutely will not make it good enough to buy if it's the only Potion-cost card. Again, the problem is that you usually only need to buy one, so the Potion you had to buy to get it becomes a liability. +1 Action does zilch to address that issue.
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silverspawn

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2014, 12:19:07 pm »
0

Haha. You could have just posted this stuff in the other thread. :D

Obviously the Transmute change makes it stronger, but absolutely will not make it good enough to buy if it's the only Potion-cost card. Again, the problem is that you usually only need to buy one, so the Potion you had to buy to get it becomes a liability. +1 Action does zilch to address that issue.

bah :P

well, you already buy it sometimes if it's the only potion card. with the buff, you will buy it more often. of course, it's still just a minority of games. but it's an improvement

silverspawn

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2014, 02:47:50 pm »
+2

Talisman and Harvest:



dondon151

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2014, 04:16:37 pm »
+5

Transmute is missing a line.

If it is a Scout: Gain a Province.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2014, 10:50:47 pm »
0

Transmute's problem is the opportunity costs accrued by both the turn you bought a Potion as well as the turn you bought Transmute. All +1 Action does is make Transmute Duchy-rushing maybe a thing whenever that would actually work out (i.e. probably never). +1 Buy on-buy would at least alleviate part of its opportunity cost, but I don't think that would make it better in many more Kingdoms.
Would applying a list of vanilla benefits make Transmute more compelling?
Quote
Transmute
Cost: $P
Types: Action
Trash a card from your hand. If it is an...
Action card: +3 Cards and gain a Duchy
Treasure card: +2 Actions and gain a Transmute
Victory card: +$1 and gain a Gold
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heron

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2014, 10:58:21 pm »
0

Maybe transmute could use "When you buy this, +1 buy."

Edit: Actually, that leads to weird interactions with trader and goons and merchant guild. How about, "When you buy this, if this is the first Transmute you bought this turn, +1 buy."
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 11:00:10 pm by heron »
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Awaclus

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2014, 11:23:59 pm »
0

Maybe transmute could use "When you buy this, +1 buy."

Edit: Actually, that leads to weird interactions with trader and goons and merchant guild. How about, "When you buy this, if this is the first Transmute you bought this turn, +1 buy."
Well, Trader, Goons and new version of Transmute is still a 3-card combo, not very likely to come up unless you deliberately choose your kingdom to have those cards in it. If you absolutely have to avoid infinite combos, then it's out of the question, but otherwise it's probably not a problem.
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GeoLib

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2014, 12:00:08 am »
0

Maybe transmute could use "When you buy this, +1 buy."

Edit: Actually, that leads to weird interactions with trader and goons and merchant guild. How about, "When you buy this, if this is the first Transmute you bought this turn, +1 buy."
Well, Trader, Goons and new version of Transmute is still a 3-card combo, not very likely to come up unless you deliberately choose your kingdom to have those cards in it. If you absolutely have to avoid infinite combos, then it's out of the question, but otherwise it's probably not a problem.

How is this an infinite combo? I buy transmute, get a vp, get a buy, reveal trader, gain a silver instead. I can buy transmute again, in which case I get a vp, but not a buy since I already bought a transmute this turn. Where does it explode?
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Deadlock39

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2014, 12:03:45 am »
+7

Ninja'd, but I am posting anyway... I agree with GeoLib.

I don't think that is true.  Trader's effect happens on "would gain" and gaining the Transmute occurs after you buy it.  If you use Trader to gain a Silver instead, you still bought a Transmute, and you would not get the free buy again. 

Edit, it also still isn't really an infinite combo even if you give it the straight up "When you buy this, +1 buy." because you've got to have $0P to buy it.  By the time you Trader it away, or whatever you are doing... well, you already spent your Potion, so you would need to have played a second Potion this turn to keep buying them.  I think that version of the card is just fine.  If you want to put 16 potions in your deck so you can buy 16 Transmutes and Trader them with Goons in play, I would say good for you man, that is going to require one hell of an engine to go along with the 3 card combo (plus probably a 4th combo card in Watchtower to trash all those Silvers).
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 12:09:26 am by Deadlock39 »
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Awaclus

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2014, 01:14:50 am »
0

well, you already spent your Potion
Good point.
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silverspawn

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2014, 04:51:32 am »
0

well, I already said in my card list that I think transmute is in fact underrated, so I don't want to buff it too much.  Like,

Quote
Transmute
Cost: $P
Types: Action
Trash a card from your hand. If it is an...
Action card: +3 Cards and gain a Duchy
Treasure card: +2 Actions and gain a Transmute
Victory card: +$1 and gain a Gold

This is too much I think. especially the +3 cards. Making it a village feels kind of awkward. it's also more complex than I would like

"when you buy this, +1 buy" is not bad. you also can't emtpy the pile with 2 highways or something, because it's on a potion card, and there is no way to get the P out of the cost. I think I'll request a second version with that.

LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2014, 03:17:45 pm »
0

I think "When you buy this, +1 Buy" is by far the most interesting option for Transmute. It removes the combo that Transmute usually has with other sources of +1 Buy, but maybe it plays better this way. Again, it doesn't change the fact that your Potion now sucks, but at least you will less often waste a whole turn buying the Transmute itself.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 03:20:04 pm by LastFootnote »
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soulnet

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2014, 03:58:42 pm »
+1

I think a good "fix" for Transmute would be to have a better bonus for trashing your Potion. Like +$3 or +3 Cards or maybe even better.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2014, 04:00:41 pm »
0

I think a good "fix" for Transmute would be to have a better bonus for trashing your Potion. Like +$3 or +3 Cards or maybe even better.

Myeh, that makes the card more complex, though, in a way that seems inelegant to me. You get a Transmute and a vanilla bonus?

I guess you could just replace what happens when you trash a Treasure altogether. "If it's a Treasure, +3 Cards."
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 04:17:04 pm by LastFootnote »
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enfynet

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2014, 04:09:47 pm »
0

I thought there was a card (other than Tribute) that worked that way?
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theblankman

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2014, 10:28:06 pm »
+1

What if Transmute had more of a TfB feel where both the cost and type of the trashed card matter?  Say if it is an...
Action card: gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.
Treasure card: gain an action costing up to $3 more than the trashed card, or a Transmute.
Victory gard: gain a Gold.

Other suggestions of my own:
Minion: Same effects for you, but opponents choose and discard down to 4. (no more randomly turning the opponent's good hands dead, or their dead hands good)
Cultist: Same except the attack is "If this is the first time you played a Cultist this turn, each other player gains a Ruins." (I think this version is still strong but doesn't flat-out dominate nearly as many random boards)
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it's a shame that full-random is the de facto standard

Awaclus

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2014, 11:12:49 pm »
0

What if Transmute trashed itself on play?
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liopoil

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2014, 07:33:15 am »
0

What if Transmute trashed itself on play?
No way, that's (almost) strictly better than bomb.
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silverspawn

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2014, 08:38:38 am »
0

What if Transmute had more of a TfB feel where both the cost and type of the trashed card matter?  Say if it is an...
Action card: gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.
Treasure card: gain an action costing up to $3 more than the trashed card, or a Transmute.
Victory gard: gain a Gold.
I don't want to change the card (or any card) too much. This is too much for my taste.

Minion: Same effects for you, but opponents choose and discard down to 4. (no more randomly turning the opponent's good hands dead, or their dead hands good)
I understand the intention, but "discard down to 4" is such a weak attack, and it's even weaker in Minion games, that I don't think it has any business even being there. So, if anything I'd cut the attack. Which would make the card significantly weaker, but that might not be a bad thing. Hm...

Cultist: Same except the attack is "If this is the first time you played a Cultist this turn, each other player gains a Ruins." (I think this version is still strong but doesn't flat-out dominate nearly as many random boards)
I'm not sure. This might be a good idea. Gotta think about it.

Fragasnap

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2014, 06:35:27 pm »
+6

Cultist: Same except the attack is "If this is the first time you played a Cultist this turn, each other player gains a Ruins." (I think this version is still strong but doesn't flat-out dominate nearly as many random boards)
I always preferred the simpler:
Quote
Cultist
Cost: $5
Types: Action, Attack, Looter
+2 Cards. You may play a Cultist from your hand. If you don't, each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, +3 Cards.
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soulnet

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2014, 06:40:50 pm »
+3

Cultist: Same except the attack is "If this is the first time you played a Cultist this turn, each other player gains a Ruins." (I think this version is still strong but doesn't flat-out dominate nearly as many random boards)
I always preferred the simpler:
Quote
Cultist
Cost: $5
Types: Action, Attack, Looter
+2 Cards. You may play a Cultist from your hand. If you don't, each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, +3 Cards.

It is also better that you can deliver several ruins a turn if you have the actions.
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popsofctown

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2014, 09:57:13 pm »
0

I like how Harvest's buff also rewards variety.

Transmute can probably tolerate both the buy rebate and the +action.


Rebuild+overgrown estate into silk road is hilarious but fine. I'd like it if Rebuild trashed the card before returning it to the supply, for the intended in-set interaction with Feodum's sake.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 09:59:58 pm by popsofctown »
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silverspawn

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Re: Revised versions of published cards for people who play all random
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2014, 06:35:16 am »
0

I did not think about interactions with on-trash effects or non-supply cards. Mhpf.

"Trash it and then return it to the supply" is awkward. Maybe LF was right and the card just can't be fixed.
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