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Author Topic: Prime example game for noobsters  (Read 4740 times)

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werothegreat

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Prime example game for noobsters
« on: December 16, 2011, 02:25:15 am »
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Not sure where to put this...

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/15/game-20111215-231652-9b509cb5.html

I'm teaching a friend how to play online.  Notice Chapel, Grand Market, and two Cursers. 

Lessons to take from this:
1)Always Chapel away every Copper and Estate.
2)Buy Cursers early, and use them early and often.
3)Don't let your opponent monopolize the Grand Markets.  I was getting $30+ every turn.
4)With Grand Market and Platinum on the board, ignore Treasure Map and ignore Spice Merchant (unless there's no other trasher).

I was able to empty piles with all the money and plus buys, so I didn't buy any Victory cards until my last turn.  So I had little use for Warehouse - Witch was a much better drawer, which gave my opponent Curses as an added bonus.  So please, don't play like my friend.  And he can most definitely be excused - this was only his fourth game.  The previous one, he managed to get 3 out of 5 Provinces, so he's not totally hopeless.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2011, 02:30:44 am »
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4)With Grand Market and Platinum on the board, ignore Treasure Map and ignore Spice Merchant (unless there's no other trasher).
Maybe this was true in your game (I can't view isotropic-links from this browser), but in general I disagree.

- Even with Platinums you want and need Golds to be able to buy them => TM = good
- Also GMs can be bought with Golds more easily (unless you don't want any money at all)
- I don't get the conflict of GM/Plat with Spice Merchant.
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werothegreat

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2011, 02:35:03 am »
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With Chapel in the mix, Spice Merchant is just too slow to get rid of your coppers.  I'd be willing to play a more experienced player sometime on the same board and see if Spice Merchant or Treasure Map become more necessary.
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Elyv

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2011, 02:37:31 am »
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Chapel/Treasure Map is actually a really good opening and probably sets you up really well to buy grand markets.
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ftl

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2011, 03:01:23 am »
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Too many things going on in that game makes it a not particularly good example of any of them, IMO.

You were so much better than the opponent that you could have won that game without chapel, or without Witch, or without Grand Market. That makes it a not particularly useful for demo purposes. The lesson to take away from that game is 'be better in all possible ways'.

Heck, your opponent started with his buys being Workers Village, Warehouse, Chapel, Workers Village (using 5 and passing up a Mountebank!). Of the various things to learn, 'not letting your opponent get all the Grand Markets' is so far down the list; he couldn't have prevented you from doing that if he tried.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2011, 03:32:19 am »
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With Chapel in the mix, Spice Merchant is just too slow to get rid of your coppers.  I'd be willing to play a more experienced player sometime on the same board and see if Spice Merchant or Treasure Map become more necessary.
As I said, on the board you may be correct (and with Chapel in the mix you most probably are), but your list seemed to me like a general guideline for new players and not just for this specific game.
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Robz888

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2011, 03:38:37 am »
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With Chapel in the mix, Spice Merchant is just too slow to get rid of your coppers.  I'd be willing to play a more experienced player sometime on the same board and see if Spice Merchant or Treasure Map become more necessary.
Yeah, skip out on Spice Merchant for sure. But Treasure Map could definitely be good here. Open Chapel/Treasure Map, and make sure you get one more TM before trashing absolutely everything. You'll be buying double Grand Markets by Turn 6. The danger, I suppose, is if your opponent gets a Witch too quickly, slows down your trashing, or interferes with your second Treasure Map.

Chapel/Silver might be better, because it's probably easier to buy a Chapel and 3 Silvers than it is to buy a Chapel and 2 Treasure Maps. But since this is a Colony game, you'll really wish you had the Golds instead of the Silvers later on.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2011, 07:56:04 am »
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Not sure where to put this...

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/15/game-20111215-231652-9b509cb5.html

I'm teaching a friend how to play online.  Notice Chapel, Grand Market, and two Cursers. 

Lessons to take from this:
1)Always Chapel away every Copper and Estate.
2)Buy Cursers early, and use them early and often.
3)Don't let your opponent monopolize the Grand Markets.  I was getting $30+ every turn.
4)With Grand Market and Platinum on the board, ignore Treasure Map and ignore Spice Merchant (unless there's no other trasher).

I was able to empty piles with all the money and plus buys, so I didn't buy any Victory cards until my last turn.  So I had little use for Warehouse - Witch was a much better drawer, which gave my opponent Curses as an added bonus.  So please, don't play like my friend.  And he can most definitely be excused - this was only his fourth game.  The previous one, he managed to get 3 out of 5 Provinces, so he's not totally hopeless.
2 is the only one I really agree with, though 3 is very often true as well. There are lots of times though, where I don't want to chapel that much away, even when I want to get chapel (and lots of times I'd skip chapel altogether!) And the TM thing people have already talked about.

Davio

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2011, 09:42:08 am »
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This is a game I would most likely end by piledriving those delicious Estates, it's one of my favourite end game moves (66x PileDriver goal on CouncilRoom). Get $16 for 8 Estates and buy them all. This only takes a few GM's combined with FV's and some $$.

A mistake I see a lot of beginning players make is not realizing when they can actually win the game. I've had it happen to me a couple of times that my opponent could win by buying the last Hamlet and bought an Estate. Then I buy a Duchy and a Hamlet and I win.
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werothegreat

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2011, 10:48:50 am »
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Not sure where to put this...

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/15/game-20111215-231652-9b509cb5.html

I'm teaching a friend how to play online.  Notice Chapel, Grand Market, and two Cursers. 

Lessons to take from this:
1)Always Chapel away every Copper and Estate.
2)Buy Cursers early, and use them early and often.
3)Don't let your opponent monopolize the Grand Markets.  I was getting $30+ every turn.
4)With Grand Market and Platinum on the board, ignore Treasure Map and ignore Spice Merchant (unless there's no other trasher).

I was able to empty piles with all the money and plus buys, so I didn't buy any Victory cards until my last turn.  So I had little use for Warehouse - Witch was a much better drawer, which gave my opponent Curses as an added bonus.  So please, don't play like my friend.  And he can most definitely be excused - this was only his fourth game.  The previous one, he managed to get 3 out of 5 Provinces, so he's not totally hopeless.
2 is the only one I really agree with, though 3 is very often true as well. There are lots of times though, where I don't want to chapel that much away, even when I want to get chapel (and lots of times I'd skip chapel altogether!) And the TM thing people have already talked about.

Chapeling makes your deck so much better, but it only works if you Chapel everything.  If you're saving some Coppers to buy things while you have your Chapel in hand, but your opponent is trashing everything, there may be a couple turns where you've got more buying power than he does, but then he will overwhelm you.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2011, 10:50:27 am »
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Not sure where to put this...

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/15/game-20111215-231652-9b509cb5.html

I'm teaching a friend how to play online.  Notice Chapel, Grand Market, and two Cursers. 

Lessons to take from this:
1)Always Chapel away every Copper and Estate.
2)Buy Cursers early, and use them early and often.
3)Don't let your opponent monopolize the Grand Markets.  I was getting $30+ every turn.
4)With Grand Market and Platinum on the board, ignore Treasure Map and ignore Spice Merchant (unless there's no other trasher).

I was able to empty piles with all the money and plus buys, so I didn't buy any Victory cards until my last turn.  So I had little use for Warehouse - Witch was a much better drawer, which gave my opponent Curses as an added bonus.  So please, don't play like my friend.  And he can most definitely be excused - this was only his fourth game.  The previous one, he managed to get 3 out of 5 Provinces, so he's not totally hopeless.
2 is the only one I really agree with, though 3 is very often true as well. There are lots of times though, where I don't want to chapel that much away, even when I want to get chapel (and lots of times I'd skip chapel altogether!) And the TM thing people have already talked about.

Chapeling makes your deck so much better, but it only works if you Chapel everything.  If you're saving some Coppers to buy things while you have your Chapel in hand, but your opponent is trashing everything, there may be a couple turns where you've got more buying power than he does, but then he will overwhelm you.

I'm gonna have to side with WW on this one... Chapel is not the be-all end-all that it used to be.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2011, 10:53:07 am »
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Not sure where to put this...

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/15/game-20111215-231652-9b509cb5.html

I'm teaching a friend how to play online.  Notice Chapel, Grand Market, and two Cursers. 

Lessons to take from this:
1)Always Chapel away every Copper and Estate.
2)Buy Cursers early, and use them early and often.
3)Don't let your opponent monopolize the Grand Markets.  I was getting $30+ every turn.
4)With Grand Market and Platinum on the board, ignore Treasure Map and ignore Spice Merchant (unless there's no other trasher).

I was able to empty piles with all the money and plus buys, so I didn't buy any Victory cards until my last turn.  So I had little use for Warehouse - Witch was a much better drawer, which gave my opponent Curses as an added bonus.  So please, don't play like my friend.  And he can most definitely be excused - this was only his fourth game.  The previous one, he managed to get 3 out of 5 Provinces, so he's not totally hopeless.
2 is the only one I really agree with, though 3 is very often true as well. There are lots of times though, where I don't want to chapel that much away, even when I want to get chapel (and lots of times I'd skip chapel altogether!) And the TM thing people have already talked about.

Chapeling makes your deck so much better, but it only works if you Chapel everything.  If you're saving some Coppers to buy things while you have your Chapel in hand, but your opponent is trashing everything, there may be a couple turns where you've got more buying power than he does, but then he will overwhelm you.
Oh no, I kept one copper, oh no, now my deck is ruined... Obviously you want to chapel a lot, but absolutely needing to chapel everything... not always true.

Davio

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2011, 01:16:34 pm »
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Opening Chapel + Treasure Map is actually pretty counterproductive and slow, because you have to keep at least 4 Coppers around to buy the 2nd TM.

I think it's probably faster to just go with FV's and the odd Silver perhaps.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Prime example game for noobsters
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2011, 02:10:28 am »
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Opening Chapel + Treasure Map is actually pretty counterproductive and slow, because you have to keep at least 4 Coppers around to buy the 2nd TM.

I think it's probably faster to just go with FV's and the odd Silver perhaps.
Chapel/Treasure map usually works out pretty decently, but I think chapel/silver into treasure maps might be a little better, since it doesn't turn out horrible if you draw chapel with 4 coppers.

Regarding chapel in general, of course there are times when you don't want to trash everything, and only siths deal in absoluted, but I think it's okay to think that way when you are a beginner. You have to play the game to build up intuition, but "trash everything" is a reasonable place to start. Same with the curse thing. Sure there are some exceptions, but it doesn't hurt to have this as a general rule.
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