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[GendoIkari]

So we all know that BMU is a pretty strong baseline strategy, but also that it won't generally win against good players playing either a good engine, or a good enhanced BMU strategy. Recently I had this game:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111213-150818-7f3694c0.html

Because I opened with 5, I bought Venture / Embargo, but other than that I played almost pure big money. Only exception was when I bought a Nobels at one point to add a little card-draw when I thought I had more than enough Gold.

So I'm wondering, are there Kingdoms out there for which BMU is the predominant strategy (Never buy any single Kingdom card throughout the game), or is there always at least 1 card that will at least slightly improve on BMU? What would such a Kingdom look like?

As a somewhat obvious note, this Kingdom couldn't have a single $3 or $4 or $5 card that is strictly superior to Silver. So basically not a single terminal Silver + bonus card.

[Epoch]

I doubt that there are any 10 card kingdoms where you literally can't find a single card to buy even one of that would improve your win rate over absolutely pure BMU.  It seems basically impossible to me.

For such a kingdom to exist, it would pretty much have to be the case that:

1.  There is no $3-$5 Action that produces $2 and does SOMETHING else.  One such buy is strictly superior to Silver.
2.  There are no Attacks, or the Attacks that exist are SO bad that they are inferior to a Silver buy.
3.  There are no +cards actions.
4.  There are no non-basic Treasures that are Silver+ or Gold+.

There are plenty of "one card kingdoms" where the correct thing to do is ignore the one card (For example: if the only allowable Action card buy in the game is Workshop, the correct play is to play pure BMU).  But 10 such cards?  I don't think that this kingdom exists.

[DStu]

So let's try.
I'm sure BM-Quarry is worse than BM.
Probably BM-Talisman also.
As the target is only to get bad actions, KC and TR should suck also in the end.
Most Villages should be innocent also, so we have
Village, Walled Village, Worker's Village. probably Mining Village.
Golem should be bad in this setup also.

That's 10 [edit: At least counted Al Bundy-style...].  Quarry+WV had some combopotential, but I would not rely on it here. Or we should find some more.
:e2 Hamlet, Pawn. :e3 University

[ackack]

Epoch's post is very similar to my thought process on this one. I'm not certain about #3 - Moat being the possible example that comes to mind - but it's definitely approximately true. Most non-standard VP cards will be problematic as well. Vineyard and Fairgrounds, surrounded by junk, would be worthless. But I'm not sure you're going to find 8 pieces of junk to put around them.

added: Talisman/Silver would be a pretty decent opener for raw BM - get a couple extra Silvers early on. I doubt it's a huge improvement but I bet it still is one. Village and Walled Village are definitely crap, Mining and Worker's are less clear to me.

[DStu]

added: Talisman/Silver would be a pretty decent opener for raw BM - get a couple extra Silvers early on. I doubt it's a huge improvement but I bet it still is one. Village and Walled Village are definitely crap, Mining and Worker's are less clear to me.

Talisman BM loses to BM. Not much but it loses.

[Epoch]

Epoch's post is very similar to my thought process on this one. I'm not certain about #3 - Moat being the possible example that comes to mind - but it's definitely approximately true.

I'm pretty sure that Moat is a good buy in a BM deck if you happen to draw $2.  I wouldn't be surprised if BM + 1 Moat beats BM even if you have to give up a Silver for the Moat.

DStu:  I'm not sure that Mining Village is ignore-able, either.  Pawn seems likely to be a decent buy at $2, once (+$1, +1 Card?  That's gotta be better than nothing).  I wouldn't be surprised if Walled Village was a decent buy late in a green-war when you both have very diluted decks.

EDIT:  Duh, not Walled Village, which is of course useless.  I was thinking of Farming Village.

[theory]

This might actually belong in the puzzles forum.  I think this is a great challenge.

Here's my attempt:

Quarry
Talisman
King's Court
Throne Room
Village
Walled Village
Transmute
Herbalist
University
Spy

Maybe Herbalist is not bad as a $2.  Maybe Develop instead, then?

[Epoch]

Maybe Herbalist is not bad as a $2.  Maybe Develop instead, then?

Does BMU + 1 Develop lose to BMU?  Develop turns Estates into top-decked Silvers, after all.

Maybe Cache thrown in there instead of Herbalist?  I'd be concerned that Spy might be good in that deck.

[FishingVillage]

I wanna try this I imagine there'll be a lot of overlap though.

Here's my attempt at a kingdom that favors BM (or at least has a yucky Supply):

Cache
Golem
Throne Room
Walled Village
Village
Fishing Village
Pawn
Secret Chamber
University
Transmute

Edit: Ack! Someone mentioned Cache as I was making up my list I swear I didn't steal that idea!
Edit2: Crossroads -> Gardens. I think the one thing I wanted to do was eliminate as much drawing power as possible, while leaving cards that are somewhat pointless to use Throne Room on.
Edit3: Gardens -> Fishing Village. Some follow up posts explained pretty well how Gardens could be useful with just Duchies and Cache. I've opted to replace that with Fishing Village instead, which I think in this case amounts to a Silver split over 2 turns, which isn't terribly useful for BM (Throne Room'd Fishing Village might be useful though...).
Edit4: Vineyard -> Pawn. I figured that Vineyard would potentially involve the same issue as Gardens, and since University is also in the Supply, I decided to replace it with Pawn, which will usually just be a Copper's worth (or just a cantrip).

[chwhite]

Gardens can't be a part of this kingdom, because you'd be willing to buy it in Duchy panic time, even in an otherwise BM deck.  That also disqualifies Silk Road and Great Hall, which would otherwise be great choices for this challenge.

Here's a setup where I'd probably just go straight BM:

Coppersmith
Thief
Treasure Map
Develop
Saboteur
Vineyard
Transmute
Philosopher's Stone
Possession
Peddler

With no trashing, buys, or +Actions, Peddler is kinda useless!  Avoiding several of these would be a judgment call, but in this particular setup I'd probably leave all ten Kingdom cards alone.

Specify a 2-player game (heck possibly even a 3p game) and Pirate Ship could join this party. 

ED:  Outpost is another possible contender for this setup.

[jotheonah]

Plus Cache and Gardens together might beat BM.

[Axxle]

I'm sure Fairgrounds could find a home in a kingdom with a lot of actions you don't want to buy.

edit: oh, I see that was already mentioned.  don't mind me

[GendoIkari]

This might actually belong in the puzzles forum.  I think this is a great challenge.

Here's my attempt:

Quarry
Talisman
King's Court
Throne Room
Village
Walled Village
Transmute
Herbalist
University
Spy

Maybe Herbalist is not bad as a $2.  Maybe Develop instead, then?

Feel free to move to puzzles if you want.  I have a feeling that BMU + Herbalist would beat BMU...

[Elyv]

I didn't buy any actions in this game, and I think that it's at least debatably correct. Of course, that's a bit of cheat, since I was still using kingdom cards(venture/loan).

[Epoch]

Gardens can't be a part of this kingdom, because you'd be willing to buy it in Duchy panic time, even in an otherwise BM deck.  That also disqualifies Silk Road and Great Hall, which would otherwise be great choices for this challenge.

Here's a setup where I'd probably just go straight BM:

Coppersmith
Thief
Treasure Map
Develop
Saboteur
Vineyard
Transmute
Philosopher's Stone
Possession
Peddler

With no trashing, buys, or +Actions, Peddler is kinda useless!  Avoiding several of these would be a judgment call, but in this particular setup I'd probably leave all ten Kingdom cards alone.

Specify a 2-player game (heck possibly even a 3p game) and Pirate Ship could join this party. 

ED:  Outpost is another possible contender for this setup.

Straight up single-Thief beats Big Money, so it can't be in this Kingdom.

[Epoch]

I think that Modifed-Dstu's first-post is still the best answer:

1.  Talisman
2.  Quarry
3.  King's Court
4.  Throne Room
5.  Village
6.  Walled Village
7.  Hamlet
8.  Worker's Village
9.  University
10.  Golem

So, the questions are:  Do Talisman or Quarry, interacting with the +buy of Hamlet or Worker's Village, lead to... something?

I don't THINK that they do.  Quarry: no Actions in this deck actually do anything.  KC->a village leads to minor card advantage, but surely not enough for the opportunity cost.

Talisman:  The only target for Talisman is Silver.  If Talisman + BMU < BMU, I can't see how Talisman + +buy + BMU > BMU.

[DrHades]

I don't understand, why are you puting Hamlet in here! Whenever I have 2$ and going only for BMU, Hamlet is supirior to nothing, so it cannot be here! 

Here's my idea:

0P
Vineyard

2$
Native Village

2P
University

3$
Village

4$
Talisman
Quarry

5$
Cache
Contraband

6$
Fairgrounds

7$
King's Court

[philosophyguy]

Native Village
Village
Walled Village
Mining Village (Silver will always be strictly superior in this setup, MV is only a 1-time Silver and the extra actions have no value)
Feast
Quarry
Talisman
Fishing Village (I think Silver will be superior in this setup except for occasional bad draw breaks).
University
Silk Road

[WanderingWinder]

Cache/BM is better than BM. Silk Road/BM is stronger than BM. I'm pretty sure I can come up with a kingdom now where straight BM is optimal. Will try to do this when I have some time - hopefully tomorrow.

[Epoch]

I don't understand, why are you puting Hamlet in here! Whenever I have 2$ and going only for BMU, Hamlet is supirior to nothing, so it cannot be here! 

Not a LOT superior to nothing, but point taken.  But your thing has University, some Actions, and Vineyard, and Fairgrounds!  Fairgrounds just by itself is worth buying in the greening stage, and University/Vineyards is arguably worth pursuing.

[DG]

Sorry to spoil this but hasn't this already been asked once on the BGG forum and once on these forums? There are new cards in the list anyway I suppose.

King's court
Border Village
Fairgrounds
Counting House
Outpost
Throne
Scout
Quarry
Fishing Village
University

[theory]

At the very least, Border Village + BM, where you use Border Village only when you would otherwise take a Duchy, is equal to BM.

[AJD]

Mining Village (Silver will always be strictly superior in this setup, MV is only a 1-time Silver and the extra actions have no value)

Not strictly true; it's a 1-time Silver plus a card, and you can choose to take the $2 at the optimal time when it will put you over the top for what you want to buy.

[eigensheep]

village, walled village, workers village, native village, university, thone room, kings court, talisman, quarry, golem  is 10 cards and looks pretty safe.

[Razzishi]

At very least, start with a list of cards that cannot ever do anything good for you if there are no actions that actually do anything in the supply.  Here's what I have going through this thread, along with one it seems people forgot:

Scheme
Village
Walled Village
University
Throne Room
Quarry

Are there any others?

Border Village for Duchy is very slightly useful for controlling shuffling timing.  If you draw $8+ in treasure + Border Village with no cards left in your deck, you don't play the BV and get to shuffle your good treasure back into your greening deck for your next hand instead of having it miss the shuffle.  If you just bought the Duchy, you'd be forced to shuffle without that $8 in treasure.