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Author Topic: Alchemists FDS2  (Read 4107 times)

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ghostofmars

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Alchemists FDS2
« on: October 25, 2014, 01:38:41 pm »

There was more interest in the game, so let's see if we get enough players for a 2nd game.

Here the description from the original thread.
I've read the new game "Alchemists" of CGE was the hit at Essen, so I would like to try it as a forum game. It is a worker-placement deduction game. There are 8 ingredients that mix according to their "atomic" structure to give 7 different potions. You want to deduce which ingredient has which atomic structure by trying combinations of different ingredients. All of this is built into a (more or less) classical worker-placement game to gather the ingredients and sell the potions you get to adventures to get more money.

The game is a bit controversial because it requires a smart phone (or a computer) to resolve the mapping from ingredient to potion during the game. However, for a forum game a moderator can take over the roll of the app.

Anyone interested? We could play with up to 4 players and I would be willing to mod. In principle, there is a beginner version, but I would prefer the full game. I think the added complexity is overcome by it being a forum game, where you have more time to think through possible combinations and can reread actions and mixed potions later.

Rules

Signup:
1) Watno
2) Dsell
3) chairs
4)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 10:20:24 am by ghostofmars »
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Watno

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2014, 07:13:25 pm »

Noone wanna play with me? :(
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Dsell

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2014, 08:02:41 pm »

I'm really interested in this game, but my access is mostly limited to US evenings. From previous experience with forum games, if people are on vastly different schedules it can cause some issues.
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Watno

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2014, 09:38:25 pm »

Weren't you part of that incredibly fast Terra Mystica game we played once?

While I live in Europe, I'm usually up quite late (like now), so I dont think my schedule is that far away from yours.
Just join and let's try, worst thing that can happen is that it will take ages.
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Dsell

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2014, 10:04:07 pm »

I was in that game! But I was in school then, and could be on essentially any time of day (I def made/pondered moves during lectures). Now I work 8-5. But I'm still willing to play, even if it does take a while. If we can get multiple moves in some evenings, even better.

/in
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chairs

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2014, 12:57:33 pm »

/in

Watno

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2014, 01:47:55 pm »

YAY for chairs!
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chairs

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2014, 01:54:15 pm »

I should warn you that I'm probably going to only be able to post 1-2 times a day sometimes.  I've got notify on, so I should at least be able to keep tabs on the game, but since seeing the board is kind of :effort: I can't always phone post.

Watno

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2014, 08:23:39 pm »

I guess we should start with 3 players then?
Or actually I think ghostofmars could play as well if everyone randomnizes for himself.
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ghostofmars

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2014, 08:41:23 pm »

I think this is one game where playing with a moderator is much simpler than randomnizing everything yourself. While it is certainly possible, you need to trust that nobody is peaking at different results. If you publish the game code, you can in principle look at the solution at any time. You need to draw ingredients/favors without anybody knowing.

So there would be a lot to track for each individual player and nobody can control if you make a mistake until the end of the game. I'd like to wait a bit if this game fills then I will start with 3 or 4 players.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2014, 09:21:20 pm »

Is there already some sort of spreadsheet or something to simplify moderation?  I'm not so interested in playing this right now, but I could mod if it isn't too time intensive and I don't need to know the rules in-depth or anything.
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chairs

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2014, 07:13:37 pm »

I think some mod sheets already exist.  Knowing the rules in-depth might be helpful, though, for assisting the players who don't know the rules that well (hint: me).

ghostofmars

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2014, 08:47:05 pm »

I will send you a PM with the links to the master spreadsheets. I've improved them a little bit with the things that I noticed in the first game.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2014, 09:17:05 pm »

PM received.  Will need to take some time later to grok it all; I'm not that amazing with spreadsheets.  You guys are waiting on a fourth anyway, right?
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ghostofmars

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2014, 10:05:52 pm »

I would be the 4th if you mod.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2014, 10:42:44 pm »

I would be the 4th if you mod.

D'oh. :P

OK, I probably won't get a good chance to look over everything until the weekend.  Cool?
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Watno

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2014, 04:04:37 pm »

Pretty cool! Thank you very much, gotta find some posts to upvote
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eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2014, 09:00:53 pm »

Still haven't had a chance to get it organized, but I plan to do so tomorrow!
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eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2014, 08:27:00 pm »

Started setting it up.  Sent a PM to ghostofmars with some questions about setting it all up.

I'm curious as to how it works to hide specific tabs/sheets.  If I click on the tab there is an option to hide the sheet.  But then how can I view it as the mod without unhiding it?  The on-going game has a link to what is presumably the master document, with all but the main sheet hidden.  How does ghostofmars view the other sheets without making all of it public?  I suppose I could just save an extra copy of the table somewhere else?

I also don't see where to randomize all the cards for foraging.  And are the artifacts not randomized?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 08:28:53 pm by eHalcyon »
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ghostofmars

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2014, 08:44:25 pm »

Started setting it up.  Sent a PM to ghostofmars with some questions about setting it all up.

I'm curious as to how it works to hide specific tabs/sheets.  If I click on the tab there is an option to hide the sheet.  But then how can I view it as the mod without unhiding it?  The on-going game has a link to what is presumably the master document, with all but the main sheet hidden.  How does ghostofmars view the other sheets without making all of it public?  I suppose I could just save an extra copy of the table somewhere else?

I also don't see where to randomize all the cards for foraging.  And are the artifacts not randomized?
I send already a PM with the questions you asked there. The new design doesn't need the hidden sheet anymore after setup. There is actually also a hidden sheet in the first game.
In the first game I have a different layout
Code: [Select]
master     player<-gameSo a separate master sheet, where I have stored the lookup table for the potions. Player sheets with the individual ingredients. The game imports the sum of the ingredients from the player sheets. The disadvantage is that I have to touch the master sheet to look up the potion, then the player sheet to remove the ingredients and finally the game sheet to modify e.g. the potions left for the adventurer.

The new version has an improved layout
Code: [Select]
master/game<-playerThe game sheet is merged with master sheet and each player imports all public and his private information from the master. Hence, you only need to modify the master sheet and all players will immediately see the changes.

For foraging you roll the die 5 times and write down the ingredient and then copy them all to the public_information sheet.
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ghostofmars

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2014, 09:20:50 pm »

And are the artifacts not randomized?
PS: I overlooked this question. I don't have a list of the artifacts. In principle they are randomized, but I used the ones from the example in the rulebook. Here is an image of all(?) the artifacts, if you want to replace one or more.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2014, 09:49:47 pm »

And are the artifacts not randomized?
PS: I overlooked this question. I don't have a list of the artifacts. In principle they are randomized, but I used the ones from the example in the rulebook. Here is an image of all(?) the artifacts, if you want to replace one or more.

OK, I will probably randomize this then.  Does the rule book not discuss every artifact in detail?  It seems like that is a thing it should do.  :P

@everybody, I've mostly got it all set up.  I plan to read the rules.  You can expect the game to start on Wednesday at the latest, but it may be as early as tomorrow afternoon.  Apologies for the delay.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2014, 06:11:01 pm »

Questions after reading rules:

- we're using full master variant?
- list of artifacts? (ghostofmars linked me a BGG image of this earlier; I might use that)
- list of adventurer tiles?
- list of conference tiles?
- list of favor cards? (Not needed if it is uniform distribution.)
- where to mark who has earned which grants?
- where to mark who has which artifacts?

I'll get the game started as soon as I get these answers.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 06:47:50 pm by eHalcyon »
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chairs

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2014, 07:05:13 pm »

So after re-reading the rules, I, uh... think I had better /tag instead of /in, so I can follow along for a game before I annoy you guys by asking rules questions all day.

ghostofmars

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2014, 07:08:55 pm »

Questions after reading rules:

- we're using full master variant?
In the first game, I used master variant except for conference tiles, where I don't know the master version.
Quote
- list of adventurer tiles?
Adventurer demand 3 different colored potions. Every possible combination of + and -, except for the +++ and --- = 6 adventures.
Quote
- list of conference tiles?
apprentice version:
first conference: published/endorsed at least 1 theory +1 rep, otherwise -1 rep
second conference: P/E 2+ theories +1 rep, 1 theory -1 rep, no theory -2 rep

Quote
- where to mark who has earned which grants?
- where to mark who has which artifacts?
I would put the player's initial before the grant/artifact.

Quote
- list of artifacts? (ghostofmars linked me a BGG image of this earlier; I might use that)
- list of favor cards? (Not needed if it is uniform distribution.)
I don't know the answers to these two. I used a uniform distribution in the first game.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2014, 08:00:15 pm »

After looking through a few Youtube videos, I've found the following:

Conference tiles:

1 seal => +1 rep
0 seals => -1 rep

==

2 seals => +1 rep
1 seal => -1 rep
0 seals => -2 rep

(I'm guessing these are the Apprentice versions? Yep, looks like it from your post.)

Adventurers (don't have names for them all):

-blue, -red, -green   (assassin)
-green, -blue, +red
-red, -green, +blue
+green, +blue, -red
+blue, +red, +green
+red, +green, -blue (barbarian)

NOTE: the +++ and --- DO appear in the game, and the order of the potions can matter (maybe it doesn't matter in 4p though).

==

I got a couple of artifacts from the BGG image, but several were blurry.  Found a few more in various youtube videos.  Of note -- the Silver Chalice is strictly better than the Bronze Cup.  I suppose it's OK because it's tougher to have/pay $4 in the mid-game compared to $4 in the end game?  The Silver Chalice also seems better than the Amulet of Rhetoric (immediately gain 5 reputation) but I suppose having high reputation confers other benefits as well.

Artifacts I

Periscope
$3, 1VP
Immediately after a colleague sells or tests a potion, you may look at one of the ingredients.  Choose it randomly.  Limit once per round.

Printing Press
$4, 2VP
You do not pay 1 gold to the bank when you publish or endorse a theory.

Robe of Respect
$4, 0VP
Whenever you gain reputation points, gain 1 more.  This does not apply in the final round.

Ring of Favor (promo)
$4, 2VP
You can double the effect of a favor card you play.  Limit once per round.

==

Artifacts II

Thinking Cap
$4, 1VP
Immediate effect: Test up to two separate pairs of ingredients in your hand.  Do not discard them.

Silver Chalice
$4, 6VP
This artifact has no special effect, but it still earns you victory points.

==

Artifacts III

Crystal Cabinet
$5, *VP
When scoring artifacts, this is worth 2 points for each artifact you own, including this one.

Magic Mirror
$4, *VP
When scoring artifacts, this is worth 1 victory point for every 5 reputation points you had at the end of the final round

Bronze Cup
$4, 4VP
This artifact has no special effect, but it still earns you victory points.

Decisions:

- I will use a uniform distribution for the favour cards.
- I'll also do master variant other than those conference cards.
- I will include the Ring of Favor promo unless people object.

So after re-reading the rules, I, uh... think I had better /tag instead of /in, so I can follow along for a game before I annoy you guys by asking rules questions all day.

Hey, don't worry about it.  I've got the rulebook handy now so I should be able to answer questions without trouble.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 08:03:40 pm by eHalcyon »
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ghostofmars

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2014, 08:08:13 pm »

-blue, -red, -green   (assassin)
-green, -blue, +red
-red, -green, +blue
+green, +blue, -red
+blue, +red, +green
+red, +green, -blue (barbarian)

NOTE: the +++ and --- DO appear in the game, and the order of the potions can matter (maybe it doesn't matter in 4p though).
I don't recall where I got the information, it might be that it was just a speculation in some thread...

Quote
The Silver Chalice also seems better than the Amulet of Rhetoric (immediately gain 5 reputation) but I suppose having high reputation confers other benefits as well.
Reputation during the game is a double-edged sword: On the one hand it increases your gains from selling potions, on the other hand you lose more reputation if you already have some.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2014, 08:21:12 pm »

So after re-reading the rules, I, uh... think I had better /tag instead of /in, so I can follow along for a game before I annoy you guys by asking rules questions all day.

Can you confirm whether you'll play or not?  If it's just a matter of questions, I don't think anybody will mind at all.  If you just don't think you'd find it enjoyable, that is cool.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2014, 08:49:21 pm »

To everybody:

Everything is set up.  All I need to do now is make a new thread and send out PMs with links to private spreadsheets (major props to ghostofmars for some really nice spreadsheetin').  Can everybody confirm /in?  If anybody wants to back out, it might be best to wait for a fourth because I have no idea how to convert the spreadsheet to a 3 player game!
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chairs

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2014, 08:50:44 pm »

I think I would have fun if I understood, but this is way more complex than I took it for at first glance.  Officially /out, but /tag so I can lrn2play when this gets rolling.  Sorry guys :(

eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2014, 08:57:15 pm »

I think I would have fun if I understood, but this is way more complex than I took it for at first glance.  Officially /out, but /tag so I can lrn2play when this gets rolling.  Sorry guys :(

No worries.  FWIW, I had the opposite reaction -- after reading the rule book, I think it is a lot simpler than I'd thought it would be. :P

@ghostofmars, I may need you to tell me what to change in order to adjust the player name/letter on the spreadsheet for when we get a fourth.  Otherwise, how to change to 3p.
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ghostofmars

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2014, 10:09:24 pm »

You need to adjust the conditional formatting. Replace the initial with the new player or just delete the rule if we are 3 players.
Format -> Conditional Formatting
I think the worker assignment should still work, though I don't know how the board changes for 3 players. I'm only aware of the change for the potions (only two can be sold), but there may more.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2014, 10:12:11 pm »

In rahdo's run-through he says that the 4p side has more spaces, which means the 3p side has fewer.  Could look through the video to get the correct number.

But it's probably a lot easier to just wait for a fourth...
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eHalcyon

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Re: Alchemists FDS2
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2015, 03:02:57 am »

Do you guys want to try 3p instead?  I'm not sure what would need to be changed though, and I may need instruction on how to actually adjust the spreadsheets.

If it works out better, I am willing to play if we get somebody new to mod.

Or I could maybe play a sort of dummy player?  Like, I could run a fourth player and intentionally try to play mediocre moves or something.  I don't know.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 03:06:05 am by eHalcyon »
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