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Author Topic: Card Idea: Catapult  (Read 4537 times)

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LastFootnote

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Card Idea: Catapult
« on: October 21, 2014, 05:33:25 pm »
+3

Here's an idea that I don't have space for in Enterprise, but seems promising.

Quote
Catapult
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1.

When you gain this, you may gain an Engineer from the Engineer pile.

Engineer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: 0*
For each Catapult you have in play, each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a cheaper card that shares a type with it, gaining a Curse if he couldn't. (This is not in the Supply.)

It uses the Barbarian downgarde attack from the Dominion Outtakes file. I'm wondering how many Catapults you want to have in your deck in order for Engineer to be worth it. I'm guessing at least two.
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ephesos

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2014, 02:38:00 am »
0

Wait, so Estates go straight to Curses, as does Copper. And actions(including Catapult!) go to cheaper actions or Curses... Seems a little too strong, somehow. And for each Catapult too. Chapel Catapult would be awful to face at 3-4.
e.g. Chapel Catapult, T3 Chapel 2 Estate 2 Copper, T4 Catapult Estate 4 Copper buys Catapult 2 and Engineer, T5 Catapult Catapult Engineer Estate 3 Copper buys Catapult...
and if they hit your Chapel or Catapult you're pretty much out.

I don't think Catapult necessarily needs $1 on top of the attack; Market only gives +Buy on top of that and still costs $5, and I'd say the Engineer attack in most situations is better.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2014, 03:03:21 am »
0

Wait, so Estates go straight to Curses, as does Copper. And actions(including Catapult!) go to cheaper actions or Curses... Seems a little too strong, somehow. And for each Catapult too. Chapel Catapult would be awful to face at 3-4.
e.g. Chapel Catapult, T3 Chapel 2 Estate 2 Copper, T4 Catapult Estate 4 Copper buys Catapult 2 and Engineer, T5 Catapult Catapult Engineer Estate 3 Copper buys Catapult...
and if they hit your Chapel or Catapult you're pretty much out.

I don't think Catapult necessarily needs $1 on top of the attack; Market only gives +Buy on top of that and still costs $5, and I'd say the Engineer attack in most situations is better.

Catapult doesn't have an attack, it's just a $5 Peddler that gives you the option to gain an unreliable attack card with no self-benefit.  Its strength is questionable.  Consider:

First, you need to match up Engineer with a Catapult.

If Engineer hits Copper or Curse, it's strictly worse than Swindler since it doesn't give you +$2.  If it hits Estate, the attack portion is only a little better than Swindler.  You downgrade their Estate, but this usually doesn't matter either way.  Junk is junk.

Hitting Silver is decent, since it downgrades to Copper.

Hitting $3 actions might hurt the most, because it will often go Curse... but not if there's an acceptable $2 on the board.

In the end, Engineer is just a mix of Swindler, Saboteur and Knights.  The best case is if you can set it up to have just one Engineer in your deck firing multiple Catapults, but the attack is still unreliable.  It trades off some of the trashing attack power (reliability of Saboteur, unmitigated destruction of Knights) for the possibility of Cursing, and it's definitely not as strong a junker as any of the actual Cursing attacks.

The scenario you describe with Chapel/Catapult requires drawing Chapel with 2 Estates on turn 3, which is near ideal.  The same situation with Witch, Mountebank, Cultist or even Wharf or a Knight is probably just as good.

It might be overbearing, but I don't think it's obviously so.
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market squire

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2014, 06:06:04 am »
0

First I was confused because, why is Engineer the Attack and not Catapult? After a second read I got it that an Engineer can pull off all the Catapults. I like the theme of it.

On the other hand, I don't think it's worth an extra pile. Attack once per x could be anything. Maybe reveal up to 4 Silvers from your hand and attack once per Silver. Or make it a Potion cost and attack per Potion on the hand. Maybe even a Horn of War: Attack according to the number of  differently named cards in play.

The Attack itself is a nice take on Saboteur. Sounds decent.
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pedroluchini

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2014, 08:00:49 am »
+1

Maybe even a Horn of War: Attack according to the number of  differently named cards in play.
So the card's type would be... Treasure-Attack? :o
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dondon151

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2014, 06:46:04 pm »
+1

This seems way too strong. It's weak and swingy in money games and a must-buy in engine games. The player who gets the most Catapults and Engineers and who can eliminate his opponent's Catapults and Engineers wins.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2014, 07:14:59 pm »
0

This seems way too strong. It's weak and swingy in money games and a must-buy in engine games. The player who gets the most Catapults and Engineers and who can eliminate his opponent's Catapults and Engineers wins.

Yes, it has occurred to me that you can activate the same Catapults multiple times, which was not my intent. How about this?

Quote
Catapult
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action.

When you gain this, you may gain an Engineer from the Engineer pile.

Engineer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: 0*
+$2. Discard all your Catapults in play. For each one, each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a cheaper card that shares a type with it, gaining a Curse if he couldn't. (This is not in the Supply.)
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Kirian

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2014, 07:56:29 pm »
0

How about instead of Catapults in play, discard the Catapults from hand?

Engineer
Action - Attack
Cost: 0*
+$2.  Discard any number of Catapults from your hand.  For each one you discarded, each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a cheaper card that shares a type with it, gaining a Curse if he couldn't.
(This is not in the Supply.)
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markusin

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2014, 09:47:59 pm »
0

How about instead of Catapults in play, discard the Catapults from hand?

Engineer
Action - Attack
Cost: 0*
+$2.  Discard any number of Catapults from your hand.  For each one you discarded, each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a cheaper card that shares a type with it, gaining a Curse if he couldn't.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Kinda worse than Saboteur if you have to discard those catapults without replacement, even with the +$2 I think. Maybe make Engineer non-terminal?

Oh, but then Engineer is a non-terminal silver, so Catapult would have to cost at least $5.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 09:49:07 pm by markusin »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2014, 10:08:46 pm »
0

How about instead of Catapults in play, discard the Catapults from hand?

Engineer
Action - Attack
Cost: 0*
+$2.  Discard any number of Catapults from your hand.  For each one you discarded, each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a cheaper card that shares a type with it, gaining a Curse if he couldn't.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Kinda worse than Saboteur if you have to discard those catapults without replacement, even with the +$2 I think. Maybe make Engineer non-terminal?

Oh, but then Engineer is a non-terminal silver, so Catapult would have to cost at least $5.

Catapult already does cost $5.

Maybe give engineer +$1, and +$1 more for every Catapult discarded.
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dondon151

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2014, 10:54:27 pm »
+3

How about you make the Catapult the attack, and Engineers the ammunition?
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Fragasnap

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2014, 11:18:58 pm »
+2

How about you make the Catapult the attack, and Engineers the ammunition?
I imagine that boulders would be more effective.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2014, 11:30:34 pm »
0

How about you make the Catapult the attack, and Engineers the ammunition?
Snark aside, I believe it makes more thematic sense that Engineers are necessary for Catapults to function as Attacks because no one else knows how they work.

Quote
Catapult
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action.

When you gain this, you may gain an Engineer from the Engineer pile.

Engineer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: 0*
+$2. Discard all your Catapults in play. For each one, each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a cheaper card that shares a type with it, gaining a Curse if he couldn't. (This is not in the Supply.)
I do not think this card is a good idea. No one would be able to get out from under the rain of Catapults after one player gets a couple of Catapults out-- especially so with trashing. Catapults don't slow you down and then an Engineer just flattens each other player's deck, what with their Catapults and Engineers getting destroyed as they were setting up to do the same thing. Then their decks get destroyed again before they can build back up.
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Kirian

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2014, 11:32:05 pm »
0

How about you make the Catapult the attack, and Engineers the ammunition?

Someone's been tinkering with Goblin Engineers lately...
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silverspawn

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2014, 04:10:07 am »
0

I recall the old version had "gains [...] or a curse." why change that? Because it wasn't clear whether the curse was a choice or just a "if you can't do the other" thing?

it seems like it'll mostly play out the same anyway. of course, i still understand if it's bothering you, so not saying it was a mistake or anything. just something I noticed. the "gaining a curse if he couldn't" wording looks kind of stiff to me.

sudgy

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Re: Card Idea: Catapult
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2014, 01:45:22 pm »
0

I recall the old version had "gains [...] or a curse." why change that? Because it wasn't clear whether the curse was a choice or just a "if you can't do the other" thing?

it seems like it'll mostly play out the same anyway. of course, i still understand if it's bothering you, so not saying it was a mistake or anything. just something I noticed. the "gaining a curse if he couldn't" wording looks kind of stiff to me.

Under that wording, you could say "Oh, I'll just gain a cards costing less of this type.  Oh, I can't do it.  Too bad for you!"
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