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Author Topic: Black Market/Hermit  (Read 6206 times)

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silverspawn

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Black Market/Hermit
« on: October 16, 2014, 03:13:35 pm »
+3

If you play Black market, buy a card, play hermit, don't buy something in your buy phase, should you gain a madman? Hermit clearly says, "if you did not by any cards this turn", so I think you don't, but goko says you do. My guess is that this is just incorrect implementation... or is it correct?
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2014, 03:17:27 pm »
0

On-buy effects trigger when you buy cards from the black market deck, and you can overpay cards from the black market deck, so that's how I would interpret it.
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Donald X.

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2014, 03:57:09 pm »
+9

If you play Black market, buy a card, play hermit, don't buy something in your buy phase, should you gain a madman? Hermit clearly says, "if you did not by any cards this turn", so I think you don't, but goko says you do. My guess is that this is just incorrect implementation... or is it correct?
If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.
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JW

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2015, 01:40:52 pm »
0

If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.

Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.

Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.
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markusin

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2015, 10:10:20 pm »
0

If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.

Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.

Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.
At least you get to live out that "what if?" scenario.
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JW

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2015, 02:14:04 pm »
+2

If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.

Dominion Online has fixed this, and now does it correctly.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2015, 02:30:32 pm »
0

If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.

Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.

Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.

Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck.
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Awaclus

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2015, 02:53:09 pm »
0

If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.

Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.

Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.

Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck. can use Hermit's ability to gain another Hermit.

FTFY
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GendoIkari

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2015, 03:29:39 pm »
+1

If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.

Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.

Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.

Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck. can use Hermit's ability to gain another Hermit.

FTFY

Not really... Because then you won't have used his ability to gain whatever else you wanted, which could have been a second Hermit or anything else.
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Awaclus

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2015, 03:36:55 pm »
0

If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.

Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.

Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.

Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck. can use Hermit's ability to gain another Hermit.

FTFY

Not really... Because then you won't have used his ability to gain whatever else you wanted, which could have been a second Hermit or anything else.

Well, not being able to gain what you want is what happens when you don't have enough money. Hermit doesn't make that any worse.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2015, 03:45:23 pm »
+1

If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.

Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.

Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.

Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck. can use Hermit's ability to gain another Hermit.

FTFY

Not really... Because then you won't have used his ability to gain whatever else you wanted, which could have been a second Hermit or anything else.

Well, not being able to gain what you want is what happens when you don't have enough money. Hermit doesn't make that any worse.

It's worse than if Hermit's self-trashing were a "may". If it were optional, then you could use Hermit to gain what you want, and still keep Hermit if you wanted to, even though you couldn't buy anything you wanted. But the way it is, if you can't buy anything you want, you have to choose between not playing Hermit (and thus not getting a $3 that you want), or  trashing the Hermit.
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Asper

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2015, 04:06:06 pm »
+2

If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.

Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.

Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.

Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck. can use Hermit's ability to gain another Hermit.

FTFY

Not really... Because then you won't have used his ability to gain whatever else you wanted, which could have been a second Hermit or anything else.

Well, not being able to gain what you want is what happens when you don't have enough money. Hermit doesn't make that any worse.

It's worse than if Hermit's self-trashing were a "may". If it were optional, then you could use Hermit to gain what you want, and still keep Hermit if you wanted to, even though you couldn't buy anything you wanted. But the way it is, if you can't buy anything you want, you have to choose between not playing Hermit (and thus not getting a $3 that you want), or  trashing the Hermit.

...or buying a Copper. Not that that was something you'd like to do.
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clb

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2015, 07:07:20 pm »
+5

If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.


Thanks for this answer. Dominion Online still has this interaction wrong, hope it can be fixed.

Marin and I both used that the interaction is wrong to good effect in a game just now, but if one of us had expected not to get a Madman in that situation, that would not have been fair.

Huh, I just now realized that Hermit's self-trashing is not optional. So if you want to play and keep your Hermit, but don't have enough money to buy anything, you're out of luck. can use Hermit's ability to gain another Hermit.

FTFY

Not really... Because then you won't have used his ability to gain whatever else you wanted, which could have been a second Hermit or anything else.

Well, not being able to gain what you want is what happens when you don't have enough money. Hermit doesn't make that any worse.

It's worse than if Hermit's self-trashing were a "may". If it were optional, then you could use Hermit to gain what you want, and still keep Hermit if you wanted to, even though you couldn't buy anything you wanted. But the way it is, if you can't buy anything you want, you have to choose between not playing Hermit (and thus not getting a $3 that you want), or  trashing the Hermit.

...or buying a Copper. Not that that was something you'd like to do.

So it sounds like if you love your Hermits, you should not send them on a Mission or they will be forced to become Madmen.
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JW

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2015, 07:59:48 pm »
0

If you buy a card via Black Market, Hermit should not trigger.

Dominion Online has fixed this, and now does it correctly.

Dominion Online apparently does not do this interaction correctly any more.

JW   plays Black Market
JW   reveals Secret Chamber, Spy, Embassy
JW   plays Copper
JW   buys Embassy
JW   gains Embassy
Lord Bottington   gains Silver
JW   places Secret Chamber on bottom of the Black Market deck
JW   places Spy on bottom of the Black Market deck
JW   plays Hermit
JW   trashes Estate
JW   gains Fishing Village
JW   trashes Hermit
JW   gains Madman
JW   draws Curse, Curse, Copper, Hermit, Copper

But wait, in the same game the interaction was handled correctly. Does Dominion online get the interaction correct with multiple Hermits in play, but not with only one? Or is it a random process? Stay tuned for exciting future investigations!

JW   plays Hermit
JW   trashes Curse
JW   gains Hermit
JW   plays Hermit
JW   trashes Curse
JW   gains Hermit
JW   plays Black Market
JW   reveals Remodel, Catacombs, Hunting Party
JW   plays Copper
JW   plays Copper
JW   plays Copper
JW   buys Catacombs
JW   gains Catacombs
JW   places Hunting Party on bottom of the Black Market deck
JW   places Remodel on bottom of the Black Market deck
JW   draws Worker's Village, Rats, Rats, Copper, Fishing Village
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eHalcyon

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2015, 08:23:09 pm »
+5

Based on those snippets, it looks like the difference is the timing.  In the first example, you played Black Market and bought a card, then you played Hermit and didn't buy anything else.  In the second example, you played two Hermits and then you played Black Market, buying a card.  That probably means that Dominion Online is only checking for buys while Hermit is in play. 

To confirm, you can try playing a Hermit, buying something through Black Market, then playing another Hermit and not buying anything.  If my guess is correct, then you should get only one Madman from the second Hermit, but not the first.  If that doesn't happen, then it's still possible that they are doing the same kind of timed check but it's stored in a single variable for all Hermits in play.

Based on the wording of the card, I think the proper behaviour is that Hermit should not trigger even if you buy a card before Hermit is played.
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JW

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2015, 11:04:08 am »
+1

Based on those snippets, it looks like the difference is the timing.  In the first example, you played Black Market and bought a card, then you played Hermit and didn't buy anything else.  In the second example, you played two Hermits and then you played Black Market, buying a card.  That probably means that Dominion Online is only checking for buys while Hermit is in play. 

To confirm, you can try playing a Hermit, buying something through Black Market, then playing another Hermit and not buying anything.  If my guess is correct, then you should get only one Madman from the second Hermit, but not the first.  If that doesn't happen, then it's still possible that they are doing the same kind of timed check but it's stored in a single variable for all Hermits in play.

Exactly right!

JW   plays Village
JW   draws Village
JW   plays Village
JW   draws Hermit
JW   plays Hermit
JW   gains Village
JW   plays Black Market
JW   reveals Scrying Pool, Horn of Plenty, Worker's Village
JW   plays Silver
JW   buys Worker's Village
JW   gains Worker's Village
JW   places Horn of Plenty on bottom of the Black Market deck
JW   places Scrying Pool on bottom of the Black Market deck
JW   plays Hermit
JW   gains Village
JW   trashes Hermit
JW   gains Madman
JW   draws Copper
JW   shuffles deck
JW   draws Worker's Village, Madman, Hermit, Village
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JW

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Re: Black Market/Hermit
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2016, 04:18:59 pm »
0

This interaction appears fixed, according to MF:
http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?10154-Release-Notes-v-2-1-with-Adventures

Quote
Fixed: Buying a card with Black Market from the Black Market deck should prevent the gain of a Madman, even if no card is bought during the player's Buy phase. (829)
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