Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[thespaceinvader]

I've been wondering about a cantrip trasher that doesn't reduce hand size, and was trying to work out how it would work.  I was thinking:

Action: £5
Trash a card from your hand
+2 cards
+1 action

But I can't figure whether it would be balanced at that.

The other option I was wondering about is

Action: £5
+2 cards
+1 action
Trash a card from your hand

Which is a small change but clearly makes the second version better than the first.  I've no idea whether either of them is balanced at 5 though - the first is equivalent to using Apprentice to trash an estate, which is almost the worst use of apprentice.

Would either of them be balanced at 4?

[Joseph2302]

I've no idea whether either of them is balanced at 5 though - the first is equivalent to using Apprentice to trash an estate, which is almost the worst use of apprentice.

The way I see them is Lab + trash effect, so the question is whether the trashing bit is good or bad on average? I reckon good, so it's better than Lab.

Also, nice to see someone using £ not $ in the card cost

[market squire]

There is Junk Dealer for comparisons. I guess 2 cards, 1 action is much better than card, coin and action (especially combined with trashing). Even if you draw after trashing the card.
Also there is that option of Spice Merchant. But this friend will only trash your treasures.

Maybe the way to go is not to trash from your hand but from the top of your deck. Like:

+1 Card
+1 Action
Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. You may trash one of them. Put the rest back in any order.

[silverspawn]

I think the only trasher that doesn't reduce your handsize is masquerade, which is stupidly strong, despite being terminal. I almost consider that an unspoken rule.

Well, loan doesn't reduce your handsize either, but it's a copper, so it really does reduce it by being just a copper.

[LastFootnote]

The first one is like a very flexible Spice Merchant. I think it might be doable at $5. The second one should probably cost at least $6. They're both definitely too strong for $4.

[Awaclus]

The first version sounds like it could be one of the strongest cards in the game, but not necessarily broken. The second version sounds way too powerful.

[Deadlock39]

I think the only trasher that doesn't reduce your handsize is masquerade, which is stupidly strong, despite being terminal. I almost consider that an unspoken rule.

Well, loan doesn't reduce your handsize either, but it's a copper, so it really does reduce it by being just a copper.

You could generally say that Loan reduces your hand value by $1, because it could have been a Silver.

[LastFootnote]

I think the only trasher that doesn't reduce your handsize is masquerade, which is stupidly strong, despite being terminal. I almost consider that an unspoken rule.

Well, loan doesn't reduce your handsize either, but it's a copper, so it really does reduce it by being just a copper.

You could generally say that Loan reduces your hand value by $1, because it could have been a Silver.

You could say that Loan reduces your hand size by one, because it does. In the exact same way that Lookout and Junk Dealer do.

[silverspawn]

You could say that Loan reduces your hand size by one, because it does. In the exact same way that Lookout and Junk Dealer do.

agreed, it's a junk dealer that only works for coppers, and Junk dealer reduces your hand size.

[soulnet]

Mercenary trashes and does not reduce handsize. Apprentice can also, as long as you trash $2+ costs. To some extent, Mint's on-buy also trashes without reducing handsize.

[silverspawn]

Mercenary trashes and does not reduce handsize.

no

Apprentice can also, as long as you trash $2+ costs.

that's true

To some extent, Mint's on-buy also trashes without reducing handsize.

nah, you trash from your hand. that's always reducing handsize.

[silverspawn]

But there is also Spice Merchant. So, Spice Merchant, Apprentice, Masquerade. Still,

Spice Merchant only works for treasures and provides no benefit
Apprentice does reduce handsize if you use it for junk, the only exception is estates for which it provides no benefit

So, basically

The first one is like a very flexible Spice Merchant.

[soulnet]

To some extent, Mint's on-buy also trashes without reducing handsize.

nah, you trash from your hand. that's always reducing handsize.

Your error, not mine .

[Awaclus]

Technically Mint doesn't reduce your handsize on buy, but it practically reduces it every time you draw it by being in your hand instead of a good card. The same is true for Doctor.

[liopoil]

The second one is rats + watchtower, which is quite good indeed.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Also, nice to see someone using £ not $ in the card cost

But £5 is like $8 !!

[thespaceinvader]

The first version sounds like it could be one of the strongest cards in the game, but not necessarily broken. The second version sounds way too powerful.

This was my thought.  It's balanced by being 5-cost and therefore not usually in play until t5 or 6 at the earliest, and probably ought to be 6 on that basis so it's not obtainable on a 5/2 draw (edge case Baker etc).  I was thnking 4 on the same basis that Chapel is 2...

I wonder whether it would need something to balance it; maybe making it a duration for some effect in order that it's likely to miss reshuffles.

Maybe 'You may trash a card from your hand, if you don't, trash this'.  Or 'You may trash a card, if you don't, discard two cards'.  Both seem like they take some of the goodness off it.

And yes, in the absence of a coin symbol my money is in £ damnit.

[GeoLib]

Maybe 'You may trash a card from your hand, if you don't, trash this'.  Or 'You may trash a card, if you don't, discard two cards'.  Both seem like they take some of the goodness off it.

Unless I'm missing something both of those make it better. Making the trashing optional is strictly better (no one bring up possession ok). For the cards in the OP, the first sounds too strong at $5, but could be balanced at 6, though I think not that interesting. The second seems way too strong.

[Awaclus]

(no one bring up possession ok)

You just did.

[popsofctown]

The first one is really strong, and stronger than Junk Dealer, but probably ok as a card.  Junk Dealer is not like a backbreakingly powerful dominion card or anything.

Yeah Masquerade is terminal but it's also on the other side of the 4-5$ gap so that's fine.

I think the card would be a little more tame than you expect because it doesn't add 1$ to the value of what your deck does when you draw the whole thing.  And since you cycle through and trash so hard that can be quite a big deal.

[thespaceinvader]

That was one of my thoughts - it's more powerful than lab early, but weaker later on when you want a lot less to actually trash stuff.  It should be an extremely strong engine enabler, I guess.

The only possible argument for pricing it less than 5 would be the same one as Chapel costing what it does - that it needs to be priced so anyone can afford it, if there's a possibility of it being afforded by someone round 1.  By which logic it's best priced either at 4 or 6.  And I think the trash-then-draw variant is the more balanced one.

I like the idea though, enough that I might actually want to playtest it.  Shame my gaming group doesn't like dominion as much as I do D:

Unless I'm missing something both of those make it better. Making the trashing optional is strictly better (no one bring up possession ok). For the cards in the OP, the first sounds too strong at $5, but could be balanced at 6, though I think not that interesting. The second seems way too strong.

'if you don't, discard two' make it worse than warehouse if you choose not to trash...  Difficult to write it concisely though if you want the trashing first and the discarding after...

[GeoLib]

Unless I'm missing something both of those make it better. Making the trashing optional is strictly better (no one bring up possession ok). For the cards in the OP, the first sounds too strong at $5, but could be balanced at 6, though I think not that interesting. The second seems way too strong.

'if you don't, discard two' make it worse than warehouse if you choose not to trash...  Difficult to write it concisely though if you want the trashing first and the discarding after...

Yes, but adding an additional option necessarily makes the card stronger than it was originally. To be completely clear:

Action: £5
You may trash a card, if you don't, discard two cards
+2 cards
+1 action

is strictly better* than

Action: £5
Trash a card from your hand
+2 cards
+1 action

Just as:

+$2
You may gain a curse.

is strictly better* than

+$2

Giving an additional option always makes a card better and I take it from your post that you were attempting to nerf them:

Both seem like they take some of the goodness off it.

*I am using strictly better in the only way that makes sense in Dominion, which ignores Possession.