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LastFootnote

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2014, 12:03:47 am »
0

This is one of those very few places where Ascension did better.

"Copy the effect of another [card] you played this turn."

Pleasingly simple, yet frustrating to do in Dominion.

Let me guess. Ascension only has one copy of that card?

At least the base set only has one, but I don't see an issue if there were multiple really. So you play C1, then later play C2, and you choose C1 as the card to copy. This means that you must now choose a card to copy, because that's the effect you're copying. So you must now "copy the effect of another card you played this turn". So you choose C1 again (which is still "another card" from C2, at least that's how I read it). So yeah, you can technically keep choosing C1 forever. So what? It's no different from how you can keep revealing Moat forever in Dominion.

I'm just saying that it's only pleasingly simple because there's a single copy of the card, that's all. It's an easy out.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2014, 12:18:46 am »
0

This is one of those very few places where Ascension did better.

"Copy the effect of another [card] you played this turn."

Pleasingly simple, yet frustrating to do in Dominion.

Let me guess. Ascension only has one copy of that card?

At least the base set only has one, but I don't see an issue if there were multiple really. So you play C1, then later play C2, and you choose C1 as the card to copy. This means that you must now choose a card to copy, because that's the effect you're copying. So you must now "copy the effect of another card you played this turn". So you choose C1 again (which is still "another card" from C2, at least that's how I read it). So yeah, you can technically keep choosing C1 forever. So what? It's no different from how you can keep revealing Moat forever in Dominion.

I'm just saying that it's only pleasingly simple because there's a single copy of the card, that's all. It's an easy out.

So Throne Room should have been a prize!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2014, 12:28:10 am »
0

This is one of those very few places where Ascension did better.

"Copy the effect of another [card] you played this turn."

Pleasingly simple, yet frustrating to do in Dominion.

Let me guess. Ascension only has one copy of that card?

At least the base set only has one, but I don't see an issue if there were multiple really. So you play C1, then later play C2, and you choose C1 as the card to copy. This means that you must now choose a card to copy, because that's the effect you're copying. So you must now "copy the effect of another card you played this turn". So you choose C1 again (which is still "another card" from C2, at least that's how I read it). So yeah, you can technically keep choosing C1 forever. So what? It's no different from how you can keep revealing Moat forever in Dominion.

I'm just saying that it's only pleasingly simple because there's a single copy of the card, that's all. It's an easy out.

So Throne Room should have been a prize!

Well, maybe Magic Mirror should.
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pacovf

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2014, 07:59:46 am »
0

That's an interesting idea, but I don't know if Magic Mirror is in the same league as the other prizes, not the way it is right now, anyway. While silverspawn seems to think otherwise, the comparison to TR makes me think that this is a 4$, or else a very weak 5$, and all the prizes are either really strong or very quirky, and I think this is neither (not after BoM, anyway); a MM that would let you copy cards out-of-phase would definitely qualify, but it kind of breaks the game too much, and I can't think of any other way to boost MM to a similar powerlevel as the rest of the prizes. The only thing MM would have going on for it as a prize is that it would let you have two princesses or diadems in play at the same time...
I do like the flavour of a magic mirror being the prize of winning a tournament though.
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silverspawn

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2014, 09:39:19 am »
+1

That's an interesting idea, but I don't know if Magic Mirror is in the same league as the other prizes, not the way it is right now, anyway. While silverspawn seems to think otherwise, the comparison to TR makes me think that this is a 4$, or else a very weak 5$, and all the prizes are either really strong or very quirky, and I think this is neither (not after BoM, anyway); a MM that would let you copy cards out-of-phase would definitely qualify, but it kind of breaks the game too much, and I can't think of any other way to boost MM to a similar powerlevel as the rest of the prizes. The only thing MM would have going on for it as a prize is that it would let you have two princesses or diadems in play at the same time...
I do like the flavour of a magic mirror being the prize of winning a tournament though.

There is no leauge of prizes though. the powerlevel of prices is vastly different. I can almost guarantee you that magic mirror would generally be a stronger card than both bag of gold and diadem. although being a prize makes it weaker, because games with prizes are games with tournament, and games with tournament are games where you green early.

A card that can copy any card in Play is at least as good as every card that you have in Play. Just think about what that means. If you have a Bazaar in Play, all MM's can be Bazaars. Just like that. If you have a Village and a draw in Play, all MM's can be either. With an effect like this, why would you even buy any more villages or draw? You're just going to buy so many that you're guaranteed to have one of each in Play, and then you're just going to stack MM's. Now you could say this is also true for TR. Well, for one TR is one of the strongest 4$'s in the game, but also TR is by far not as good. A Hand of 3*TR and a Village isn't good, unless one of the next two cards is your draw. You just play TR, TR, Village, and that's it. TR can be drawn without other Action cards, that's fairly common. If you draw MM without action cards, you can just imitate whatever Action you need. Band of Misfits costs 5$, but your card is so much better than BoM. The typical engine has draw that costs 5$ and a village that costs 4$ or 3$. BoM can only imitate the village, and it costs 5$, so it's not really an advantage over buying the village. Plus, and this is huge, once the village is piled out, BoM becomes useless. MM doesn't have this problem at all.

But there's more. Say you have a hand of TR + Draw in an engine. It's bad, you just draw a lot of dead actions. With MM + Draw, you just play your draw, and then imitate a Gold with the MM. If you have an engine that draws your deck every turn, there is absolutely no reason to buy gold or platin anymore, if you already have one. Just buy one Gold, and then MM's. They can be gold, but they can also do so much more.

Another random thought, have you considered what this does in a game with tournament or KC?

And again, look at Believer:



Believer is probably stronger than every official 2$ card, maybe on top with chapel and stonemason, and it could easily cost 4$. Still, in most ways it's worse than MM. It requires you to pay an additional Action when imitating a card, and it can't copy treasures at all. Granted, it also has some cute hidden powers that your card doesn't have, and pretty strong on-buy effect, but still, it has to be weaker overall.

My prediction is, MM is probably okay priced at 6$, strong at 5$, and broken at 4$ or less.
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pacovf

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2014, 11:38:55 am »
+1

I think you are overemphasizing the cases where it is better than TR, and kinda assuming that you have already built a deck that draws itself and has actions to spare. TR is good because it is two cards in one, a village + whatever you draw it with, which is balanced by the fact that if fizzles often. MM needs a lot of support compared to TR, which is balanced by the fact that it does something even when it fizzles, and that it has more potential.

Let's compare some cases:

TR + smithy = draw six cards dead. MM + smithy = draw three cards dead, copy your best treasure (a copper or silver at the beginning of the game, which is arguably the most important phase). TR clearly wins, if anything because of the extra cycling.

TR + TR + smithy = draw six cards, double any action cards from 8. MM + MM + smithy = draw three cards, triple your best treasure. It's not even close when you are building an engine.

The reason why BoM can be good (with the right Kingdom) is because it's always doing what you want it to be doing, independently of your hand or your deck. It can trash when you want to trash, it can give you actions when you've got card draw, it can give you buys when you've drawn your deck, it can attack, sometimes it can draw, etc. Both TR and MM can't do that, unless you already have those cards in hand/in play. If you want to trash, you need to buy a trasher first, and then you probably don't want to trash twice in the same turn; same goes for extra buys, discard attacks, etc.
And if you want to draw your deck, your first 5 cards must allow you to do so; if you are missing a key card, BoM will give it to you, while MM and TR won't.

Basically, the strongest cards are terminal, so you are going to need more support to bring MM to its full potential than you would need with TR. Which is fine, because MM can do some tricks that TR can't.

About MM plus KC, well, any game with KC is going to be kinda crazy, so I don't think that's a problem. A clause about "cards costing 6$ or less" could be added for balance, I guess.

The problem with MM at 5$ is the same as 5$ villages: they are competing with whatever you are using as your payload. In the end, only playtesting would tell whether this is in the "4$ cards that become really strong with the right support" (see bridge, conspirator, etc) or "solid 5$ card". And unfortunately I can't playtest it because I had to move away from where my playgroup used to meet :(
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Awaclus

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2014, 11:49:54 am »
+1

A clause about "cards costing 6$ or less" could be added for balance, I guess.
That'd also prevent Golem interactions, which might be a good idea.
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AJD

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2014, 08:40:11 pm »
+1

This is one of those very few places where Ascension did better.

"Copy the effect of another [card] you played this turn."

Pleasingly simple, yet frustrating to do in Dominion.

Let me guess. Ascension only has one copy of that card?

At least the base set only has one, but I don't see an issue if there were multiple really. So you play C1, then later play C2, and you choose C1 as the card to copy. This means that you must now choose a card to copy, because that's the effect you're copying. So you must now "copy the effect of another card you played this turn". So you choose C1 again (which is still "another card" from C2, at least that's how I read it). So yeah, you can technically keep choosing C1 forever. So what? It's no different from how you can keep revealing Moat forever in Dominion.

Naw, it's no different from how you can keep revealing Trader forever.  ;)
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AJD

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2014, 08:41:30 pm »
+2

"until either leaves play" is odd.  When could the other card leave play without Magic Mirror leaving play at the same time?  Ummm... Urchin, I guess.  And also if MM becomes a TR/KC/Procession and is used on a Duration, when the original was not.  But then what happens to MM?  Is the Duration still doubled?  It's simpler to have MM be that card until MM leaves play, without consideration for the other card (which only matters in rare cases and is confusing then).

I've been back and forth on this. It really only makes a difference if you are TR/KC a duration card, in which case it determines whether the duration is still doubled/tripled on the next turn.

I don't think it determines whether the Duration is still repeated on the next turn. Whatever happens afterward, the Duration card has been played twice already.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2014, 05:57:47 pm »
+2

I have to agree with Silverspawn here, and you are probably doing the exact opposite of what you accuse him of doing, and over emphasizing the situations where it is worse than Throne Room.

TR + smithy = draw six cards dead. MM + smithy = draw three cards dead, copy your best treasure (a copper or silver at the beginning of the game, which is arguably the most important phase). TR clearly wins, if anything because of the extra cycling.

TR + TR + smithy = draw six cards, double any action cards from 8. MM + MM + smithy = draw three cards, triple your best treasure. It's not even close when you are building an engine.

In these situations, you don't even give consideration to what happens with the cards that get drawn.  When considering the first scenario, if we are drawing 6 cards dead in a deck with a lot of TRs and Smithys, then there is a high chance there are going to be some dead actions there.  If they are MMs, then they are probably at least worth a silver.  In the second case, if you get unlucky and draw a bunch of TRs, then your turn stops, but MM can be either, or if you've already drawn your deck, they can copy your best treasure.

One more point I would make is that, it seems likely that even in the cases where MM "fails" it is highly likely to get played as Silver (unless IMO, you purchased it too early).  I would argue on that basis, that MM belongs in the "Silver with a bonus" group, which we know has to cost at least $5.

pacovf

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2014, 06:29:55 pm »
+1

In these situations, you don't even give consideration to what happens with the cards that get drawn.  When considering the first scenario, if we are drawing 6 cards dead in a deck with a lot of TRs and Smithys, then there is a high chance there are going to be some dead actions there.  If they are MMs, then they are probably at least worth a silver.  In the second case, if you get unlucky and draw a bunch of TRs, then your turn stops, but MM can be either, or if you've already drawn your deck, they can copy your best treasure.

If we are considering decks full of smithys and TRs/MMs, we are no longer considering the beginning of the game. You have to get there first, and during that time, TR is better, and early advantages tend to snowball. Yes, in a deck with tons of villages and smithies, MMs are better than TR because they can copy gold after you've drawn your deck, but TR reaches endgame earlier because it doesn't need (as many) villages.

Note that, as I mentioned before, by putting MM at 5$, you are "nerfing" it twice, because your deck will have less good cards to copy. And you do need to buy more cards for MM to start doing something for you than for TR. Whether that's reason enough to keep it at 4$ despite its higher potential, or if it indeed needs to be at 5$, only playtesting could tell. Afterall, the discussion we are having is because we don't know how often MM will be doing crazy stuff, and how often it will just be a copper. Maybe you and silverspawn are right, I don't know.

But IMHO, there's no reason to make it more expensive just because it would be a top-tier 4$. As Donald says, "I want the cards as cheap as possible without breaking the game"; Throne Room cost 3$ for most of its life and it was fine.

Quote
One more point I would make is that, it seems likely that even in the cases where MM "fails" it is highly likely to get played as Silver (unless IMO, you purchased it too early).  I would argue on that basis, that MM belongs in the "Silver with a bonus" group, which we know has to cost at least $5.

Even though MM is not exactly a silver with a bonus... that's a very good point, actually.
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Jasoba

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2014, 09:35:18 pm »
+1

I think 4$ is ok!

It collides with terminals, and is meh with villages. Its prolly best with Laboratory/Hunting Party.
It can be usefull to put some MM in your smithy/village engine but then you buy waaaay to many action cards...
Yes there will be some crazy games, with 12 highways and 14 goons in play but yeah why not xD

At 5$ you really dont want to buy this over Lab/Hunting party, because it just ends up as a Lab/Hp that can fizzle!


So yeah it obv really depends on the Kingdom, but I think 4$ is the best value...
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 09:37:42 pm by Jasoba »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Magic mirror
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2014, 11:44:06 am »
+3

I think it's definitely worth testing at $4. I don't think it's obviously too strong at that cost.
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