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Author Topic: People to avoid on isotropic  (Read 53116 times)

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joel88s

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #75 on: March 12, 2012, 09:50:16 pm »
0

I was reading this forum today blithely thinking how lucky I'd been not to have encountered such people, when this evening I was informed by JBizz, after I apologized when my Noble Brigand hit his gold on the first shot, that apologizing was such a douchey think to do.

It hardly needs mentioning that he was losing (though not overwhelmingly) and then rage-quit.
But to give the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he meant to say I should have bought a Duchy and can't spell.
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Kuildeous

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2012, 09:17:08 am »
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this attitude always baffles me.  It's like sitting down to play chess with someone, making your first capture and having them stand up and say indignantly. "You CAPTURED my PAWN? That is SO unsportsmanlike. What a jerk!"

Without defending that attitude exactly (especially the copping one part), I would note that there does seem to be a variance of opinion on the question of attack cards. Unlike in chess, where the players are immediately battling over the same space, it is possible, and indeed inevitable on certain boards, to play Dominion non-interactively. And there does seem to be a fair segment of who prefer to play that way.
[/quote]

That's a very good point. I know that in our early days of playing, we had one guy who hated any form of attack on the board. He's warmed up to it now, but he clearly was not having as much fun when someone dipped into the attack cards (especially Cursers).

I know that Android's Dominion Shuffler allows you to filter so that you can choose to have no attack cards or guaranteed attack cards. Does Isotropic have any filter like that? I can't check right now, and I haven't actually played on Isotropic in a while.

But, allowing players to propose games with no attacks could help these players who simply want to play solitaire games. And though they are not attacks, there probably shouldn't be Possession, Tribute, or Masquerade or Ill-Gotten Gains. I would say that the filter would look for interaction cards, but I think these players enjoy Bishop, Vault, and Council Room.

Of course, this is with the caveat that Isotropic will come down some time in the future.
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chwhite

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #77 on: March 13, 2012, 11:22:35 am »
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DougZ actually tried something that at one point, I think. When he instituted lobbies, there was the Secret Chamber for meeting up with friends, and there were two other lobbies - one labeled as being for "competitive" play and the other as being for "casual" play. Nobody ended up ever using the "casual" one, so it was removed because it was always empty. 

Actually, I think it was the "competitive" lobby that was eliminated- the current main lobby was the "casual" one.

The other lobby to be axed was basically "if you want to be here, set yourself to automatch and don't decline anything".
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joel88s

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #78 on: March 13, 2012, 11:23:22 am »
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Quote
I know that Android's Dominion Shuffler allows you to filter so that you can choose to have no attack cards or guaranteed attack cards. Does Isotropic have any filter like that? I can't check right now, and I haven't actually played on Isotropic in a while.

Ah, yes, it does; the 'card constraints' pull-down menu allows you to choose (along with many other parameters) 0-10 attack cards. I use it routinely for solitaire games so I don't have to attack myself. So there is indeed a way of avoiding them in games you propose, though those games won't be rated I assume, and I don't think it works for auto-matches.

On another note, your caveat about Isotropic coming down at some point sounds likes it's referring to something I haven't heard about. Is there a link where this is discussed?
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luliin

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2012, 11:29:45 am »
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Just played someone called Yaz, who in the middle of an igg game where I'd gotten the 5/2 wrote:
16:24 Yaz: so lucky.
16:24 Yaz: worst draws ever.
16:25 Yaz: gg noob

and then waited for me to resign them instead of resigning themselves.

Hate when people do that.
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DStu

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2012, 11:59:02 am »
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On another note, your caveat about Isotropic coming down at some point sounds likes it's referring to something I haven't heard about. Is there a link where this is discussed?
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=175.msg2083#msg2083
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=256.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1255.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=760.0

In no specific order...

In short what I know about it: There will be an official App for various platforms, it is developed by someone who is not Dougz, nor Donald X., nor me (I think this is new information...), it will be released when it's done(tm), it will be officially announced when it's done(tm) and according to Donald it will be great.
And if it is released isotropic will go down.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #81 on: March 13, 2012, 12:15:29 pm »
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And it will have a strong AI, apparently

DStu

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2012, 12:17:20 pm »
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And it will have a strong AI, apparently

or a not so strong, depending on whom you ask...
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WanderingWinder

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #83 on: March 13, 2012, 12:39:17 pm »
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And it will have a strong AI, apparently

or a not so strong, depending on whom you ask...
Anyone who has any information whatsoever. Heck, for all we know, the AI is *perfect*

DStu

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #84 on: March 13, 2012, 12:45:53 pm »
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And it will have a strong AI, apparently

or a not so strong, depending on whom you ask...
Anyone who has any information whatsoever. Heck, for all we know, the AI is *perfect*

There is a post on BGG that says Jay Tummelson should have stated that it's not so great. Can't find the original, and I don't think it's really important.

If it plays BigMoney+X(+Y) descently and maybe knows some standard tricks IW/SR, NV/Bridge, it's good enough. And that should not be so difficult, could just be hardcoded... Prefer playing real people anyway if I want a challange...

edit: maybe btt?
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Ozle

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2012, 12:59:24 pm »
0


 The official version will have a good AI.

Thats the only thing even remotely giving information on the AI that I have to go on. And obviously definition of 'good' is subjective!

I'm just going to assume its good and leave it at that
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rrenaud

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2012, 04:27:44 pm »
+9

Godwin's law for f.ds, a long thread will eventually talk about the official version?
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AJD

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2012, 04:28:50 pm »
+1

DougZ actually tried something that at one point, I think. When he instituted lobbies, there was the Secret Chamber for meeting up with friends, and there were two other lobbies - one labeled as being for "competitive" play and the other as being for "casual" play. Nobody ended up ever using the "casual" one, so it was removed because it was always empty. 

Actually, I think it was the "competitive" lobby that was eliminated- the current main lobby was the "casual" one.

Actually, they were both eliminated; when they existed they existed alongside the main lobby.
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Kirian

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #88 on: March 13, 2012, 10:17:02 pm »
+1

And it will have a strong AI, apparently

or a not so strong, depending on whom you ask...
Anyone who has any information whatsoever. Heck, for all we know, the AI is *perfect*

I've heard the new Dominion AI will take advantage of distributed computing methods, using spare cycles from thousands of computers to determine its next move against you, making it all but perfect.  Unfortunately, each turn will take three years.
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chwhite

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2012, 11:47:12 pm »
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DougZ actually tried something that at one point, I think. When he instituted lobbies, there was the Secret Chamber for meeting up with friends, and there were two other lobbies - one labeled as being for "competitive" play and the other as being for "casual" play. Nobody ended up ever using the "casual" one, so it was removed because it was always empty. 

Actually, I think it was the "competitive" lobby that was eliminated- the current main lobby was the "casual" one.

Actually, they were both eliminated; when they existed they existed alongside the main lobby.

I am quite certain that there were four lobbies: obviously, the description of Great Hall (the current main lobby, formerly the "casual" one) was changed once Council Room ("serious") and Courtyard ("automatch") were axed, but it was the "casual" one that got all the traffic.

Here's the announcement when they came out: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=500.msg6849#msg6849
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 11:53:06 pm by chwhite »
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verikt

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2012, 02:18:37 am »
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Quote
Without defending that attitude exactly (especially the copping one part), I would note that there does seem to be a variance of opinion on the question of attack cards.
There are attack cards and there are attack cards. I'd say there's a place for all of them at some times, I just had fun playing highway sab but it really depends on the situation. If there's a decent board of other cards and strategies and someone starts buying sab I may be pissed. You buy one, I buy one in defense, and you turned the game into a crapshoot of who hits what card first. It made the game less friendly and less enjoyable. Same with buying 3 ironworks with something like great hall on the board. You ironworks yours, I can't afford to let you have them all, and you just changed the game to piles and estates. I'm not saying there aren't times when piles and estates aren't the way to go, like with seahag or gardens in the cards but taking a nice board and changing it to a stupid race for the low cards says something about the style of player. As a rule of thumb, think if you would do it if you were playing in real life with a friend.
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DStu

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2012, 02:27:44 am »
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Quote
Without defending that attitude exactly (especially the copping one part), I would note that there does seem to be a variance of opinion on the question of attack cards.
There are attack cards and there are attack cards. I'd say there's a place for all of them at some times, I just had fun playing highway sab but it really depends on the situation. If there's a decent board of other cards and strategies and someone starts buying sab I may be pissed. You buy one, I buy one in defense, and you turned the game into a crapshoot of who hits what card first. It made the game less friendly and less enjoyable.
It was you who decides to mirror the Sab. Often you can just ignore it. Especially if there are decent other cards.

Quote
Same with buying 3 ironworks with something like great hall on the board. You ironworks yours, I can't afford to let you have them all, and you just changed the game to piles and estates. I'm not saying there aren't times when piles and estates aren't the way to go, like with seahag or gardens in the cards but taking a nice board and changing it to a stupid race for the low cards says something about the style of player. As a rule of thumb, think if you would do it if you were playing in real life with a friend.
OK, no attacks, no rushes. Am I at least allowed to build an engine, or is this also turning the game into a luckfeast of who gets it going first?
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verikt

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2012, 02:56:45 am »
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Quote
OK, no attacks, no rushes.
That wasn't what I said. Often you  can ignore it. Sometimes it's the right play. That said, people here are playing for fun. And there are cases where you have the option of playing a game which is more enjoyable for both players or choosing a strategy which is not much more likely to win, but will definitely make the game less fun/interesting. And choosing it says something about your personality.
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ftl

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2012, 03:02:33 am »
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Quote
Same with buying 3 ironworks with something like great hall on the board. You ironworks yours, I can't afford to let you have them all, and you just changed the game to piles and estates.

Why can't you afford to let someone have them all? Look, it takes you three provinces to have the same number of points as all eight great halls and all eight estates. It's a strategic decision - you can either join the other person or go for a different strategy.

If IW/great hall really is the right strategy, and you both think so, then yeah, you should both go for it. But if you think it's a bad board for it, then don't mirror them! Just beat them normally, with provinces!

BTW, I think just plain big money - no other actions even - beat an IW/great hall/estate rush, on average. You should be able to get a few provinces and a duchy or two by the time those piles are empty, because all those score so low, only a few provinces is enough. If you throw in a single good card - a smithy, say - it turns into a blowout. IW/GH rush is pretty weak. It's a few extra points, but not many, and you spend like ten turns to get these one-point cards. And if they're not emptying those piles all the way, even better, because you have a huge lead in getting to like six provinces.

Quote
I'm not saying there aren't times when piles and estates aren't the way to go, like with seahag or gardens in the cards but taking a nice board and changing it to a stupid race for the low cards says something about the style of player.

What does it say about them? I don't actually know what you're implying there.

The times where piles and estates are the way to go is when that is faster and scores more points than going for a long game with provinces...

Quote
As a rule of thumb, think if you would do it if you were playing in real life with a friend.

Yes, we'd do all these things IRL with a friend. Or, I would.

It's part of the game, and the variety of Dominion is what makes the game so great! Some games are curse-heavy no-trashing sea hag slogs, some are mega-turn Grand Market-KC games, some are rushes, some are engine games, and some end up simple big money plus one card or two. And some games are unclear - multiple paths seem viable, and you're never really sure whether your path is better until you play it out and see.
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verikt

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2012, 03:24:20 am »
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Not necessarily. Try a board with ironworks gh conspirator and some other cards. We both opened 4-3 ironworks silver. Next turn you ironworks ironworks. That leaves me the choice of also ironworking iw, ironworking consp or gh. obviously consp without gh or village or whatever to move it along is not great. So my options are to let you have a 2-1 advantage in gaining 4 cards or doing the same thing. Doing the same things means changing a province strategy game to a fairly boring who can run out the piles first. In real life if a friend did that to me I'd tell him come the fuck on, we're trying to have fun here.
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DStu

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #95 on: March 14, 2012, 03:53:57 am »
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Not necessarily. Try a board with ironworks gh conspirator and some other cards. We both opened 4-3 ironworks silver. Next turn you ironworks ironworks. That leaves me the choice of also ironworking iw, ironworking consp or gh. obviously consp without gh or village or whatever to move it along is not great. So my options are to let you have a 2-1 advantage in gaining 4 cards or doing the same thing. Doing the same things means changing a province strategy game to a fairly boring who can run out the piles first. In real life if a friend did that to me I'd tell him come the fuck on, we're trying to have fun here.

Don't know if we want to turn it into a strategic discussion here, but:
I'm not a fan of conspirator without buys, even with IW. But say your plan was Ironworking into Conspirator, you see you opponent doubleing Ironworks. You seems to think that a second Ironworks is not a good idea for GH/IW/Consp, maybe, and that the second IW clearly indicates the rush. I don't know, but let's assume this.
So you see that he goes for the rush. You are not so far away from BigMoney yet, just one Ironworks. Just see that the game will be shorter, and accelerate you game. You need to gain 16 points, if you can gain 2 GH/Estates it's only additional 12. 2 Provinces or 4 Duchies or 1Province/2Duchies.  Just getting on your way and buying 1 Province will have to let him be carefull, because he does not want to empty the piles for your win.
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DStu

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2012, 03:54:50 am »
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Quote
OK, no attacks, no rushes.
That wasn't what I said. Often you  can ignore it. Sometimes it's the right play. That said, people here are playing for fun. And there are cases where you have the option of playing a game which is more enjoyable for both players or choosing a strategy which is not much more likely to win, but will definitely make the game less fun/interesting. And choosing it says something about your personality.

If the strategy is less likely to win, just don't mirror it, and you wont get a degenerate game. If it isn't, it is the right play.
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ftl

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2012, 04:26:24 am »
+1

Not necessarily. Try a board with ironworks gh conspirator and some other cards. We both opened 4-3 ironworks silver. Next turn you ironworks ironworks. That leaves me the choice of also ironworking iw, ironworking consp or gh. obviously consp without gh or village or whatever to move it along is not great. So my options are to let you have a 2-1 advantage in gaining 4 cards or doing the same thing. Doing the same things means changing a province strategy game to a fairly boring who can run out the piles first. In real life if a friend did that to me I'd tell him come the fuck on, we're trying to have fun here.

See, now I don't even see what's boring about it.  With conspirator around, that actually seems pretty cool - buy and ironworks conspirators and great halls, activate the conspirators with IW/GH.

No idea whether it's optimal or not, but the conspirators at least seem to make it far more plausible than just an an IW/GH/Estate rush.

So if both people play it, it comes down to a showdown of rush strategies - when do you stop buying stuff to ramp up your deck (more iw and cons) and when do you switch to green? You don't want to let the other person end the game on IW/GH/Cons with like one extra estate, but you might not want to dip into estates too early because if you let them sit for a bit longer and get more cantrips/card draw/villages you might get a nice conspirator chain going and snag a province or two. 

Certainly interesting decisions to be made.

I have no idea why you're calling this a  boring game - I certainly wouldn't find this any more boring than the many formulaic Single Card + Money province games that get played.

I'd think the stereotypical 'boring' game is where there's and there's one powerful +cards card - maybe Envoy, or Smithy. Or another good BM enabler like Masquerade, or Jack of All Trade. No attacks that would make it worthwhile to actually chain them for an engine, no +buy to make a huge engine worthwhile either... Those make for the most boring games. I would have never in a million years thought to describe an Ironworks/Great Hall/Conspirator rush as boring...

But, again, that's the beauty of Dominion. Some games come down to snagging one extra Estate, whereas some games come down to a 100-point mega-turn, with everything in between also possible.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2012, 08:55:44 am »
0

And there are cases where you have the option of playing a game which is more enjoyable for both players or choosing a strategy which is not much more likely to win, but will definitely make the game less fun/interesting. And choosing it says something about your personality.
I think its cool that you enjoy to play the 'fun' style all the time (not sure what that type of game is though...) but I doubt you can judge someone's personality by the game they choose to play.  I wouldn't think a BM player is a dull person or someone who buys attacks only as a bully. 
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Ozle

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Re: People to avoid on isotropic
« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2012, 10:05:53 am »
+2

Dont you just hate it though when you are trying to play a nice game of squash when you want it to be enjoyable for both players, and your opponent keeps hitting the ball where you cant reach it, rather than straight back to you!
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