Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: What did I do wrong here?  (Read 7678 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

LibraryAdventurer

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1795
  • Shuffle iT Username: LibraryAdventurer
  • I wish my username had the links like it once did.
  • Respect: +1674
    • View Profile
What did I do wrong here?
« on: October 01, 2014, 12:31:07 am »
0


Kingdom: Candlestick Maker, Stonemason, Feodum, Fortress, Salvager, Butcher, City, Council Room, Torturer, Grand Market
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140930/log.516dc40ce4b082c74d7c8baa.1412135648745.txt

Maybe the early Feodum was a bad idea? I wanted to trash it was Salvager for the silvers, thinking that would make it easier to get grand markets.  My opponent got those torturers and fortresses lined up too fast.

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +3189
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2014, 01:55:07 am »
+11

post it like this please? If i don't have the images, I can't think myself into a board.



Code: [Select]
Candlestick Maker, Stonemason, Feodum, Fortress, Salvager, Butcher, City, Council Room, Torturer, Grand Market
So, there are a lot of things both of you did wrong. instead of going through the log and listing them all, I'll just analyze the board.

There is a lot of power here, and it's clear that you want to build the engine. there is also +actions, +draw, +buys, the only thing missing is strong trashing.

Because of stonemason, you can exploit good hands a lot. because of that, you need to play for as much money as possible early.

a good engine can be very strong, and it can and will do more than buy one province each turn. because of that, and because of the lack of trashing, silver quickly becomes a bad and then an awful card.

even though there's grand market, you don't have to get rid of copper that badly. you should almost never buy grand markets, but rather buy stonemason and overpay it with 6$, and you can use copper for that. later in the game, both copper and silver are awful cards, with only a small difference between them. two silvers will hurt your deck more than one copper.

the game will definitely end on piles. it is advised to build exactly as long as possible. 3 pile endings can be crazy fast here, with stonemason, cheap actions, and lots of buys.

so, this is what you want to do:

open silver/salvager or silver/silver (I'd do the latter). with good draws, you can get away with just 2 silvers, if you're less lucky, you might have to buy a third. do not buy more, and don't buy a candlestick maker, ever (except for 3-piling). if you hit an early 5/6$, get a butcher. with 4$, gain fortress. with later 5$'s, you can gain torturers. if you hit $6 later, either treat it as 5$, or buy double fortress, depending on if you need villages.

if you draw butcher, use it to turn estate -> CSM. you can also do fortress -> fortress. do not turn estates into silver or copper into anything. getting the coin tokens is really important

whenever you can reach 8$, buy stonemason and get 2 GM's. that's what you should use your coin tokens for.

if your opponent plays torturer, only discard if it doesn't really hurt you. if it stops you from hitting 8$, just take a curse. you will have lots of stonemasons anyway, and although curses do hurt, they're not the end of the word.

if your opponent plays lots of torturers and ignores GMs, you should change up your plan a little bit. you are pretty much guaranteed to have lots of stonemasons in your deck no matter what, so if your opponent deals out a lot of curses, focus more on fortresses, so that you can play your stonemasons more often. once the curses are run out, he's screwed.

don't buy feodum, gold, CSM, or coincil room.

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1709
  • Respect: +4329
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2014, 09:23:18 am »
+4

@silverspawn
I think you're underselling the strength of the Cursing here. Stonemason is a sloooow trasher. It is also a weak use of a terminal, you aren't going to have a million Fortresses just like that (at least not without adding more dead draw cards aka Stonemason). All your Coppers are still going to be around so it's not like you'll be drawing your deck early in the game. Lining up Stonemason with Curse won't be trivial. A consistent attacker can bury his opponent before they're even off the ground.

These broad overviews are ok and you've given some nice advice but "no plan survives contact with the enemy". No plan survives contact with the shuffles either.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 12:18:54 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2014, 09:27:33 am »
+2

I think Silverspawn has it wrong. Getting the Torturer chain going is priority #1. An Council Room is not a bad choice if you are going to be playing a bunch of Torturers aftetwards (though it is likely that more Torturers are just better). I would open Silver/Silver and get Fortress on $4 and Torturers on $5. On $6, Stonemason+2xFortress or Torturer depending on how many terminals I have. On $7+, probably Stonemason+2xTorturer. There is room for tactical moves if the opponent ignored Fortress for too long to prioritize them and leave them with too few villages to get off the ground. Salvager, Butcher and GM may be good tools for later, but the one that Curses heavier is the one that wins.

EDIT: Ninja'd a bit.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2014, 11:09:13 am »
0

Your opponent builds the right sort of deck here even if he builds it in the wrong order. His turn 11/12 deck is where you want to get to.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 11:13:00 am by DG »
Logged

LibraryAdventurer

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1795
  • Shuffle iT Username: LibraryAdventurer
  • I wish my username had the links like it once did.
  • Respect: +1674
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2014, 12:16:17 pm »
0

thanks all, that helps. Maybe the most important bit for me is to remember to take a moment to look at the board and think about it before starting.

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2014, 01:21:54 pm »
+2

I'm confused why people are not advocating for Salvager/Silver open if building Torturer chains is the top priority. There's risk in missing Estates, but also greater consistency once stop cards have been trashed.
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2014, 01:29:09 pm »
0

I'm confused why people are not advocating for Salvager/Silver open if building Torturer chains is the top priority. There's risk in missing Estates, but also greater consistency once stop cards have been trashed.

Dead-drawing the Salvager is a real risk and it is much faster to buy more Fortress/Torturers than it is to trash. If you trash an Estate with Salvager, then it is the same as Silver in T3/T4, in which you will buy at least one Torturer. After that, the risk of terminal collision and/or missing Estates is really significant.
Logged

Hydrad

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
  • Shuffle iT Username: Hidrad
  • Respect: +109
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 01:34:13 pm »
0

so would you ever get salvager then? later into the game? I always struggle with buying trash things right away instead of after i've got a bit of an engine going as I feel like I always want that next big card instead of a small bit of trashing.
Logged
For anyone else, such a statement would be a scum tell.  For Hydrad, it's simply a tell that you're reading something from Hydrad.

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +3189
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2014, 01:40:33 pm »
0

so would you ever get salvager then? later into the game? I always struggle with buying trash things right away instead of after i've got a bit of an engine going as I feel like I always want that next big card instead of a small bit of trashing.

I probably wouldn't get salvager, because butcher is just better. if butcher wasn't there, I'd open salvager.

Hydrad

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
  • Shuffle iT Username: Hidrad
  • Respect: +109
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2014, 01:46:06 pm »
0

so would you ever get salvager then? later into the game? I always struggle with buying trash things right away instead of after i've got a bit of an engine going as I feel like I always want that next big card instead of a small bit of trashing.

I probably wouldn't get salvager, because butcher is just better. if butcher wasn't there, I'd open salvager.

ah right. but ok. even if you have a engine starting to go its worth it to pick up a single trasher? I always get caught up with buying more villages and draw cards and never find time to stop for a trasher. especially without +buy. Thanks for the advice though.
Logged
For anyone else, such a statement would be a scum tell.  For Hydrad, it's simply a tell that you're reading something from Hydrad.

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2014, 01:48:08 pm »
+2

I probably wouldn't get salvager, because butcher is just better. if butcher wasn't there, I'd open salvager.

Butcher competes with Torturer at $5.
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2014, 01:55:14 pm »
0

Well, there is SM for pseudo-+buy and GM for actual +buy. Getting Salvager and/or Butcher when your engine is already going is a good idea, as you can trash a bit and make room for those Provinces you want to buy. Also, with Fortress, any TFB is a good way to pump up your economy. Butchering a Fortress gains you a GM (for instance) that you can even play that very turn if you are drawing your deck comfortably.

To sum up, I am not sure if I would ever get Salvager and/or Butcher, but I am sure there are scenarios for both. It is possible that the game is finished so quickly that there is just no time for them (Curses, SMs, Fortresses and Torturers could all be gone really quick).
Logged

Hydrad

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 142
  • Shuffle iT Username: Hidrad
  • Respect: +109
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2014, 01:57:40 pm »
0

Well, there is SM for pseudo-+buy and GM for actual +buy. Getting Salvager and/or Butcher when your engine is already going is a good idea, as you can trash a bit and make room for those Provinces you want to buy. Also, with Fortress, any TFB is a good way to pump up your economy. Butchering a Fortress gains you a GM (for instance) that you can even play that very turn if you are drawing your deck comfortably.

To sum up, I am not sure if I would ever get Salvager and/or Butcher, but I am sure there are scenarios for both. It is possible that the game is finished so quickly that there is just no time for them (Curses, SMs, Fortresses and Torturers could all be gone really quick).

So you still go for a engine deck even if there arn't trashers? I find myself trying to go BM almost every game I can't get rid of the 10 starting cards. Maybe I overvalue trashing...
Logged
For anyone else, such a statement would be a scum tell.  For Hydrad, it's simply a tell that you're reading something from Hydrad.

dondon151

  • 2012 US Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2522
  • Respect: +1856
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2014, 02:03:24 pm »
+1

You can definitely engine without trashers; you just need a higher density of engine-essential cards with maybe some sifters thrown in to ensure consistency. The explosiveness of an engine, however volatile, might still be preferable to the consistency of BM.
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2014, 02:11:52 pm »
0

So you still go for a engine deck even if there arn't trashers? I find myself trying to go BM almost every game I can't get rid of the 10 starting cards. Maybe I overvalue trashing...

You are probably not so much overvaluing trashing, which is in fact really valuable and probably the most important thing for an engine, but undervaluing a non-trashing engine. In particular attacking engines can stop BM dead. And in this case you have all the condiments of good payload: attack, good tfb+Fortress+Stonemason, ways to gain GMs fast.
Logged

Jorbles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1468
  • Respect: +531
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2014, 02:33:23 pm »
0

I'd probably open Salvager/Silver here with an eye on setting up a Torturer/Fortress engine. Torturers are too strong with a Village in play to ignore. Opportunistically consider buying Grand Markets, but prioritize Torturers until Curses are about half gone. Candlestick Makers aren't terrible additions to the engine in late game if you have $2 to spare at the end of a turn, but only after you can draw a lot of your deck consistently. Try to end the game in one turn by 3 piling when you are ahead (my best guess is that the game will end in a megaturn on Torturers/Curses/Estates, but possibly Curses/Grand Markets/Estates if Torturers are never bought out).
Logged

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +3189
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2014, 02:35:15 pm »
0

I just don't see torturers over GM here, ever. we really need to playtest this, given that everyone seems so convinced of torturers.

but not today.

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3846
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2437
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2014, 03:08:08 pm »
0

Uncontested, a Torturer chain should be able to slow the other player long enough to get the engine edge. However, it can really speed up the 3-pile ending. Had I played this game, I'd probably get a Butcher on my first $5 for the consistency of the coin tokens, and it stays useful later with Fortress and GMs and whatnot. I'm not sure if it's the correct play to get it over another Torturer though. Just the +3 cards from Torturer is good here with Stonemason to buy when you have lots of coin in a turn.
Logged

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2014, 03:21:30 pm »
+1

I just don't see torturers over GM here, ever. we really need to playtest this, given that everyone seems so convinced of torturers.

but not today.

Its actually Torturers and then GM, although its probably Torturers and then something that makes sense given your status on the Curse fight and the piles.
Logged

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +3189
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2014, 08:43:15 am »
+3

Soulnet and I playtested the board, and it's pretty clear that he and MQ got the right idea. Build the torturer engine first, then go into grand markets.

soulnet

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2142
  • Respect: +1751
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2014, 08:49:58 am »
+3

Soulnet and I playtested the board, and it's pretty clear that he and MQ got the right idea. Build the torturer engine first, then go into grand markets.

It was nice that I got pretty great draws the first game and awful draws the second game. Dealing the 10 Curses is still too much for an engine without real draw. BTW, I think Council Room is a good move for the Torturer engine if it is taking long to take off and you cannot get GMs yet. The +Buy and the extra card are nice, and if it makes you play 3 Torturers afterwards, the penalty is not a real issue. In a non-mirror, Cursing fast is top priority because the game is won after swamping the opponent, and CR helps a lot for that. The +Buy is nice for picking up more pieces in good turns, and getting CSM or +Buy is awful. After the Curses are gone and the engine is rolling, you have a $5 to break open with SM and gain Fortresses or Salvagers.

BTW, I wonder how good/bad is Stonemason/Salvager/Fortress/Feodum. Is that a thing only in my mind?
Logged

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +3189
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2014, 10:00:50 am »
0

i cant imagine that a feodum strategy has any chances here, at all. the problem (aside from the fact that you gain 10 curses instantly) is that you have so little control over piles. your opponent will quickly draw his deck every turn, and he will even have lots of spare actions with cities. he can basically decide when to end the game, and there is so much stuff you can do with stonemason in that kind of deck.

flies

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 629
  • Shuffle iT Username: flies
  • Statistical mechanics of hard rods on a 1D lattice
  • Respect: +348
    • View Profile
    • ask the atheists
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2014, 12:26:37 am »
0

Torturer engines may confound a non-expert who expects no-trashing village smithy engines to be unreliable and weak.  Without trashing, the torturers will be fiddly for a while, but because they are strong attacks you have time to build up to reliability and once you get there an opponent who doesn't go for them should be toast.
Logged
Gotta be efficient when most of your hand coordination is spent trying to apply mascara to your beard.
flies Dominionates on youtube

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2587
  • Respect: +2479
    • View Profile
Re: What did I do wrong here?
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2014, 11:36:01 am »
0

I wouldn't even consider going silver/silver here and would immediately go salvager/silver. It's interesting that you guys seem to think otherwise for the most part, and you have a point. Still not totally convinced, but definitely a bit enlightened.

If salvager were baron, would you open baron/silver?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.055 seconds with 21 queries.