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Loempiaverkoper

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #850 on: June 05, 2017, 12:40:00 pm »
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So, uh.. Twin Peaks premier.  First four episodes came out last night, and then it's weekly (after an absence next week).

Watched all four last night... wow.

Yeah this was so great. I watched the original a couple of years ago and so far they are doing a great job living up to it. So creative, throwing all these artsy special effects in your face (like modern stuff mixed with 80s camera tricks). Good thing all these 4 came out at once. The first two seemed a bit crammed full with to much too weird shit in a row, but it is starting to get into a nice pace. So funny how much of Dale came back after that single sip of coffee.

American Gods felt a lot more dull after Twin Peaks got back on my mind.
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Robz888

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #851 on: June 05, 2017, 03:09:34 pm »
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Anybody else catch the series finale of The Leftovers?
The part where Nora unties the goat and transfers the beads to her own neck made me lose it, for some reason.

It's going down in history as one of my all-time favorite shows. Perhaps number one, even.

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Witherweaver

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #852 on: June 06, 2017, 10:43:15 am »
+1

Anybody else catch the series finale of The Leftovers?
The part where Nora unties the goat and transfers the beads to her own neck made me lose it, for some reason.

It's going down in history as one of my all-time favorite shows. Perhaps number one, even.


So Leftovers finished last night with an absolutely amazing finale.  I wasn't crying, it was just raining on my face.

Some specifics about the finale.. so some of this is my reaction to things other people have said on other sites, but I don't post in those other places so I'll talk about it here.

First, I think some people are missing the point.  Similar to Inception, the part of the end that is ambiguous is not the point of the ending. We don't know whether Nora is telling the truth about her experience or not, and we also don't know whether it actually occurred or not.  (This could have been some hallucination/delusion that she came to regard as the truth.)  It doesn't so much matter what actually happened.  What does matter is that:

1. Kevin chooses to believe her.  Now of all the people in the world, Kevin is most predisposed to believe such a supernatural story, based on his experiences.  But a lot has happened since then, and for all we know he may have come to the conclusion that his experiences 15--20 years prior were delusions that occurred whenever he was close to dying.  Regardless, Kevin will pay any price to get Nora back , so he's going to accept this story no matter what. 

2. There is a deeper significance to the story.  When they last met, Kevin had said some harmful things to Nora that were not untrue: she could not get past her children Departing.  She had to come to terms with it herself, in some way.  For her to come out and say that she got in the machine, changed her mind right at the end, and then decided to go into hiding does not provide a story that justifies her coming to terms with anything; there isn't an arc or fundamental growth there.  The story she gave, however---even if not true---shows that she was able to get past this.  The story involved pain, suffering, a journey, and  we know (from the stories we read and watch)  that these are the necessary things for a character to grow.

By telling this story, Nora tells Kevin that she has changed, that she can start looking at a new life instead of obsessing over her past suffering.  This is also represented, I think, by the goat and the beads, where she takes the beads from the goat (she never really accepted her guilt and suffering before, she just found ways to avoid it), and then unburdened them on the paper towel holder.  Someone on Reddit had pointed out that the paper towels had specific meaning as symbolic of her family Departing; I believe they were shown on the empty table. 

Also, whether literally true or figurative, it shows that Nora has changed.  She has a way---even if it's just a story---to accept what happened and move on.  One could argue that her making up the story shows more growth: it means she has accepted the fact of life that we do not always have the answers, but we still need to continue on.  The stories we tell ourselves helps us make sense of the world.

3. Worth pointing out that Kevin tries this---telling a story as a way to get them to accept what happened and move on, start new---and Nora rejects it ("it isn't real").    This makes me think that she decides to tell this story after the events of the previous night, with the goat and unburdening.  One could also interpret this to mean that Nora is not making this story up, because she values the truth more than anything (beautifully ambiguous, this show is), but I actually think that's the weaker of the two interpretations, because it doesn't show her character growth.

4. It is actually important that we do not know whether this story is true or not, because Kevin does not know.  He has to decide whether he thinks she's telling the truth or not, or if it in fact does not matter to him.  By putting us in exactly the same position, we are made to experience Kevin's experience---we can put ourselves in his shoes, which makes the show more immersive. 

This is all, I think, masterfully done but not exactly subtle.  They brought the Season 2 opening song ("Let the Mystery Be") back for this episode, and the conversation with the nun addresses it ("it's just the nicer story").  Everything that happened at the wedding was symbolic---a story---and we got to see how they weren't true.  The pigeons did not carry messages throughout the world; they have a range of 50 meters and are trained to come back.  Nora is even involved in this story (funny with the very serious "I don't lie" response from earlier).  The scapegoat does not go out into the desert to die with their sins (or whatever it was), just walked away into the hills. 


A few other things I really enjoyed about the finale or series in general:

1. There was a great throwback to the goat sacrifice from Season 2, which I had actually forgotten until someone brought it up, and Kevin's delivery was perfect.

2. The characters in this show are really their own beings, separate from the actors or specifics of television.  This is displayed very well through subtle things.  For example, in Season 2, Epsiode 9 (International Assassin), Kevin is talking with Virgil in the car, and Kevin is explaining about how people are trying to kill him, and Virgil responds, "oh", as in "well that makes sense."  And Kevin responds with an incredulous, "Oh?!".  In Season 3, Episode 1, the exact same interaction happens between him and John, when Kevin tells John that Matt is writing this book, expecting John to be shocked, and John responds with the "oh".  Again Kevin responds in exactly the same way, with the same kind of disbelief.  It is a subtle thing to make this character have such consistent mannerisms.

3. The arc from the premier to finale of this season was great.  The huge "what the hell is going on?" moment of the premier, which actually made my skin tingle and left me sitting speechless, had no elaborate complicated explanation.  It was simply the story some years later.  Showing the exact same scene in the finale, this time without the music, brings home one of the main points of the show: we provide the meaning to experiences.  There were so many things that the scene in Episode 1 could have meant, and it spun off all kinds of theories.  In the end there was simply an answer, and the answer was mundane.

That's enough for now, I guess.  There is so much going on (well, that went on) with this show and so much to like.  I think it really was a masterpiece. 
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Robz888

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #853 on: June 06, 2017, 12:31:58 pm »
+1

Beautiful thoughts!

I agree about Nora's story... we have plenty of reason to doubt it, and it being a lie would make sense thematically, given the conversation with the nun. But of course Kevin is going to believe it, he has every reason to believe it. He has been to the underworld and back--or, at least, to a world that seemed totally really to him, even if he knows it isn't.

I feel like The Leftovers was really an opportunity for Damon Lindelof to continue the themes of Lost: the paramount importance of connecting with people, living for the moment vs. unraveling the impossible mysteries of existence, redemption, etc. (Lindelof even brought back alternate realities, purgatory, and electromagnetic devices.) People were so frustrated with Lost for failing to answer their questions, but I really feel like that just *is* Lindelof's storytelling philosophy: people are lost and confused and broken, and they need each other more than they need *the answers.*

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Witherweaver

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #854 on: June 09, 2017, 01:22:27 pm »
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Anyone following Fargo?  Ray Wise (Leland Palmer from Twin Peaks) makes an appearance on this week's  episode, and it's pretty awesome.
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Kuildeous

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #855 on: June 09, 2017, 03:13:36 pm »
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I struggled to do this, but I finally did it. I deleted my back episodes of the DC shows on the CW. I was between 30 to 40 episodes behind on those shows. I just wasn't getting that much enjoyment out of them in relation to how much time I have to watch shows. It's not a huge loss. I could watch them on Netflix later, though finding where I left off could be a pain.

It did reduce my DVR from 78% full to 47% full.

I have too many shows that interest me that seem like they would pay off better than the shows I just deleted. I still need to begin or catch up on Santa Clarita Diet, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, Chuck, Iron Fist, Sense8, Unbreakable Kimmie Schmidt, Man in the High Castle, House of Cards, Dexter, Bojack Horseman, Fargo, Hannibal, Black Mirror, A Series of Unfortunate Events, Travellers, and Doctor Who.

Well, damn, that list makes me despair. That's not including shows that I am caught up on and just waiting for the next episode/season like American Gods, Better Call Saul, Preacher, Legion, and whatever else.

Hmm, I did save up my Gotham season 3, but I may delete that too. I'm mildly curious since the Penguin's story got a little more interesting with his lost family. I'll hang onto it for now.

But deleting all those episodes was a little scary to a hoarder like me.
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crax

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #856 on: June 10, 2017, 01:23:39 pm »
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I struggled to do this, but I finally did it. I deleted my back episodes of the DC shows on the CW. I was between 30 to 40 episodes behind on those shows. I just wasn't getting that much enjoyment out of them in relation to how much time I have to watch shows. It's not a huge loss. I could watch them on Netflix later, though finding where I left off could be a pain.

It did reduce my DVR from 78% full to 47% full.

I have too many shows that interest me that seem like they would pay off better than the shows I just deleted. I still need to begin or catch up on Santa Clarita Diet, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, Chuck, Iron Fist, Sense8, Unbreakable Kimmie Schmidt, Man in the High Castle, House of Cards, Dexter, Bojack Horseman, Fargo, Hannibal, Black Mirror, A Series of Unfortunate Events, Travellers, and Doctor Who.

Well, damn, that list makes me despair. That's not including shows that I am caught up on and just waiting for the next episode/season like American Gods, Better Call Saul, Preacher, Legion, and whatever else.

Hmm, I did save up my Gotham season 3, but I may delete that too. I'm mildly curious since the Penguin's story got a little more interesting with his lost family. I'll hang onto it for now.

But deleting all those episodes was a little scary to a hoarder like me.
Congratulations clearing those episodes out! Getting rid of things, especially things that you've put intention into, is really hard.

I would say don't watch Doctor Who, if you're planning to watch the most recent season. I like it more than the previous season (I've watched up to episode 6) but I still don't think it's worth it to make it a priority. Of course, this is me just not liking Moffat's writing without Russel T. Davies. Capaldi is a fine actor, but Doctor Who just kind of disappoints me a at this point. Not to mention the common themes of suicide (The Doctor encourages people to kill themselves a few times) that didn't make me so happy, (having loved ones who almost passed that way). It's also not finished yet, and I find I get distracted by other shows and stop watching the current one while I'm between episodes.
Sense8, A Series of Unfortunate Events, and Black Mirror I really enjoyed, though. Black Mirror doesn't have many episodes (though they are long) and only has the one season. They aren't planning to make more as far as I know, so that's something you can watch and then be done with. It has lots of societal themes/subtle-ish commentary, and a great dark humor, which I personally love. I'm always there for the stuff that makes you think and also scares you a little.
Sense8 can be confusing and there area few episodes/aspects I don't like, but I still love it. It's a Netflix Original, so all of the episodes come out at once, which is nice. Same with A Series of Unfortunate Events. I'm never seen a better cinematic adaption of literature before. I recognize exact phrases, hardly anything is added (and what is added is clearly what the author was thinking already) and hardly anything is omitted. The feeling you get from it is so similar to the books. The actors are amazing and fit the style of the story so well. It's not your typical TV show, but that's part of what makes it great.

Imo, don't bother with Doctor Who, and definitely watch Black Mirror. Good luck fitting all these TV shows in!
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Jorbles

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #857 on: June 14, 2017, 07:24:04 pm »
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It always amazes me just how much good TV exists out there. Absolutely no reason to watch something you don't enjoy. Of the things on your list I can personally say Unbreakable Kimmie Schmidt, Fargo (seasons 1 and 2 anyways, gave up in mid season 3), Black Mirror and Bojack Horseman. Iron Fist is worth putting off if you're not a Marvel completionist. The others I either haven't seen or don't think my opinion is complete enough to express.

Enjoy watching!

Has anyone seen the Leftovers? A friend of mine was gushing about it, but I don't know much about it.
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Robz888

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #858 on: June 15, 2017, 11:25:09 am »
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It always amazes me just how much good TV exists out there. Absolutely no reason to watch something you don't enjoy. Of the things on your list I can personally say Unbreakable Kimmie Schmidt, Fargo (seasons 1 and 2 anyways, gave up in mid season 3), Black Mirror and Bojack Horseman. Iron Fist is worth putting off if you're not a Marvel completionist. The others I either haven't seen or don't think my opinion is complete enough to express.

Enjoy watching!

Has anyone seen the Leftovers? A friend of mine was gushing about it, but I don't know much about it.

WW and I were talking earlier in this thread about the Leftovers, which just had it's series finale. It's one my favorite shows of all time, you should definitely check it out. Be warned, though: the first season is relentlessly bleak, right up until the end, and then the bleakness is all worth it.
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Witherweaver

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #859 on: June 15, 2017, 11:30:50 am »
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It's basically the best show ever made.
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Witherweaver

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #860 on: June 16, 2017, 12:03:42 am »
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Preacher Season 2 looks like it's going to be fantastic. 

Also, been catching up on Better Call Saul.  Episode 5 was (the bar committee hearing one) was really great.
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Kuildeous

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #861 on: June 16, 2017, 08:22:01 am »
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Preacher Season 2 looks like it's going to be fantastic. 

Also, been catching up on Better Call Saul.  Episode 5 was (the bar committee hearing one) was really great.

Yeah, Better Call Saul has some really engaging episodes. And you wouldn't think it would be since the subject is mostly lawyers (sorry, Theory). Throwing in spoiler tags in case someone is watching this without having seen Breaking Bad.

But what makes the show great is that it isn't about the lawyering business. It's about compelling characters who are lawyers. And anyone who's seen Breaking Bad knows that Saul is a shifty son of a bitch, so part of the enjoyment is watching him transform from an attempt to go legitimate to being an accomplice to drug cartels. 

And of course there's the Gustav/Mike relationship, which you already know about from Breaking Bad.

I think what's going to be heartbreaking is watching Nacho try to stop Hector because I only remember one of those characters being in Breaking Bad, which spells terrible news for the other. Really, this can apply to Kim, Charles, and Howard, though they are more likely to be out of Saul's life rather than get killed (but I'm not ruling anything out).
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pingpongsam

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #862 on: June 16, 2017, 10:57:15 am »
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Preacher Season 2 looks like it's going to be fantastic. 

Also, been catching up on Better Call Saul.  Episode 5 was (the bar committee hearing one) was really great.

Yeah, Better Call Saul has some really engaging episodes. And you wouldn't think it would be since the subject is mostly lawyers (sorry, Theory). Throwing in spoiler tags in case someone is watching this without having seen Breaking Bad.

But what makes the show great is that it isn't about the lawyering business. It's about compelling characters who are lawyers. And anyone who's seen Breaking Bad knows that Saul is a shifty son of a bitch, so part of the enjoyment is watching him transform from an attempt to go legitimate to being an accomplice to drug cartels. 

And of course there's the Gustav/Mike relationship, which you already know about from Breaking Bad.

I think what's going to be heartbreaking is watching Nacho try to stop Hector because I only remember one of those characters being in Breaking Bad, which spells terrible news for the other. Really, this can apply to Kim, Charles, and Howard, though they are more likely to be out of Saul's life rather than get killed (but I'm not ruling anything out).

Hector was in a wheelchair all of Breaking Bad. The big question is how did that come to pass?
I've often wondered what it would be like to watch all of Call Saul before ever watching any of Breaking Bad.
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Witherweaver

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #863 on: June 16, 2017, 11:03:00 am »
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I think there would be a small loss of effect with watching Better Call Saul first.  There are a number of things that are callbacks and references.  Also, some of the shots/unveils utilize the audience knowing who the person is.  It may seem a little overdramatic if you don't know who Gus, Nacho, etc. are.  I think the show is done well enough that this would not take away much, though.
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Kuildeous

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #864 on: June 16, 2017, 11:09:00 am »
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Was Nacho in Breaking Bad? I don't remember him. That means that his relationship with Hector would be really complex since I had assumed he was going to die.

I think it'd be interesting to see someone's take on watching Breaking Bad after Better Call Saul. Of course, BCS needs to conclude before that can truly happen. I guess it'd be like trying to see what happens when someone watches the Star Wars prequels first.
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pingpongsam

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #865 on: June 16, 2017, 11:15:28 am »
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Was Nacho in Breaking Bad?

Nope. Tuco is the main character in BB from that family.
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Witherweaver

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #866 on: June 16, 2017, 11:16:06 am »
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Was Nacho in Breaking Bad? I don't remember him. That means that his relationship with Hector would be really complex since I had assumed he was going to die.

I think it'd be interesting to see someone's take on watching Breaking Bad after Better Call Saul. Of course, BCS needs to conclude before that can truly happen. I guess it'd be like trying to see what happens when someone watches the Star Wars prequels first.

Oh, I had thought he appeared briefly in the beginning.  But, the list of people.  The point is there are very dedicated nods and reveals.
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Witherweaver

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #867 on: June 16, 2017, 11:22:12 am »
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Was Nacho in Breaking Bad?

Nope. Tuco is the main character in BB from that family.

Krazy 8 is another (more minor) one.  Though arguably Hector is the more major one.
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Kuildeous

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #868 on: June 21, 2017, 10:51:32 am »
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Finished up the third season of Better Call Saul.

Some pretty good plot points. From Breaking Bad, you already know some characters will live. I initially thought that Nacho would have to be killed, but if Gus is aware of him, he may possibly offer him a retirement plan. Just because he's not in Breaking Bad doesn't mean that he has to die.

They ended the season with a fairly big cliffhanger. Annoying as usual. I do hope that they don't wimp out and spare Chuck at the last minute. These shows had some balls, and it would be uncharacteristic to back down now, but that happens in many shows.

And if they do kill off Chuck, I suppose they've been working to make use not feel as bad for him. It was bad enough that he was unsupportive of Jimmy going into law, but then they slapped on an admission that Jimmy didn't mean anything at all. This felt out of place to me.

Part of the fun is really watching how Jimmy schemes and accomplishes his tasks. Even when he's being slimy, you can't help but root him on. The recent arc where he screws over Irene but then regrets it was quite moving. I figured out what he had to do to set things right, though I didn't expect him to go that big. Great character story there.

So now I must wait for season 4. On a bright note, two-hour premiere of Preacher this week.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #869 on: June 23, 2017, 09:29:55 am »
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Regarding the BCS finale:

I don't think the cliffhanger is a cliffhanger. The screenplay has been super good so far, and that wouldn't fit at all into that.

And if they do kill off Chuck, I suppose they've been working to make use not feel as bad for him. It was bad enough that he was unsupportive of Jimmy going into law, but then they slapped on an admission that Jimmy didn't mean anything at all. This felt out of place to me.


I don't think I can agree with you here. Firstly, the admission was probably a lie? The flashback at the beginning (that's been referenced in their earlier conversation) aswell as his breakdown afterwards support that.

Secondly, I can sympathize much more with Chuck here. As it turns out, Chuck was 100% right about Jimmy the whole time. Perfectly reasonable not wanting someone like him in his firm considering his past (and present). And now Jimmy is even partly the reason he got fired (Chuck losing not only his family but his career, too?). 
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Witherweaver

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #870 on: June 23, 2017, 09:41:51 am »
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Oh man, I think what's going on there is more subtle and deep than may be apparent at first glance.

There are some interesting discussions and analysis on the reddit board regarding the episode. 

I thought the finale was great; the show has been top notch so far.
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Kuildeous

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #871 on: June 23, 2017, 11:13:43 am »
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There are definitely some questions about what kind of lawyer Jimmy could've been if he had the full support of his brother. His sketchy past was worthy of concern certainly, but he really showed initiative by getting his degree under the radar.

So if Chuck had voted to hire Jimmy into the firm, would Jimmy be a different person? He would have been brought into the structured environment early on and not been forced to rely on shyster tactics. Would he have pulled the same stunts at HHM that he did with the other firm? It's possible.

There's an interesting cause-and-effect dilemma going on here. Jimmy's past caused Chuck to not trust him. Chuck's refusal to trust Jimmy may have put Jimmy in a position where he has to bullshit his way through everything. Jimmy has a big heart; he may have bullshitted anyway in order to help someone less fortunate.

I do think that is a cliffhanger because they showed an event (Chuck knocking the lamp over) but left the result hanging until the next season (did he live, or did he die?). If it follows the usual tropes, it's obviously going to be the former, but Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul has not always been big on following tropes. I think this qualifies as cliffhanging for that reason.
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Robz888

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #872 on: June 24, 2017, 07:14:43 pm »
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As much as I love Chuck, and think the actor is just doing tremendous work, I hope they don't chicken out and spare him. It would sort of cheapen what happened.

In any case, I think he's probably dead.
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Witherweaver

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Re: TV shows
« Reply #873 on: June 26, 2017, 09:45:04 am »
+1

Best Reddit comment regarding last night's Twin Peaks (do not read if you watch the show (or intend to) but are not caught up):

Just as I predicted last week: evil Coop gets shot but then homeless ghosts revive him, then a nuclear bomb explodes for 20 minutes while the giant watches the current episode of Twin Peaks and levitates, while meanwhile sixty years ago zombie Abraham Lincoln goes on a murder rampage before he lulls everyone to sleep so that a mutant bug can crawl into a girls mouth. I still like the show and all, but sometimes I get a little annoyed that it's so predictable.
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Re: TV shows
« Reply #874 on: June 30, 2017, 07:42:28 pm »
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People watching Precher?  Season 2 is really fun so far.
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