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[Davio]

I love trashing, getting rid of those pesky Coppers and Estates/Shelters and starting over with a clean deck. It's a shame we can't use zaps for non-adventure games (maybe this is a great idea for handicapping?) to start with 7 Silvers and 3 Duchies instead.

One of my pitfalls with regards to trashing is "slow trashing". By slow trashing I mean cards like Trade Route, Develop and even badly shuffled Doctors. The benefit of trashing one, maybe two cards at a time has to be weighed against getting some good cards earlier.

This problem is most apparent when there are good cards costing $5+ and only crappy cards costing $4 or less. While you're trashing down, it's basically impossible to grab those $5+ cards. Quite often, I'm still cleaning up with little spending power while my opponent is grabbing Labs/Wharves etc.

So what am I doing? Removing one stop card (an Estate) and adding another (Silver), because Silver is the only thing I can afford. This goes on for a couple of turns until I'm finally able to reach $5 consistently. By that time my opponent has already built up a nice component lead and can switch to trashing if he wants. At that point it will take him just 2 turns to accomplish what I've done in 5.

The lesson to be learned here is to be careful and not automatically jump on the trash train just because it's available. Trashing is powerful, but if you can build up first, delaying your trashing may be better. Sometimes the $5's are so good that rushing them is paramount and trashing is only  a secondary objective.

The same goes for junking, but that's a story for another time.

What are your experiences with slow trashers? Do you tend to make the same mistakes as I do or do you find yourself skipping them too often when they're in fact helpful?

[qdread]

I find this to be especially true if the power $5 is a card with massive drawing/cycling power like Governor. Unless you have a mass trasher like Chapel or Steward, it is usually not worth the time to trash before going for a card like that.

[LastFootnote]

I think I'm definitely in the "skip them too often" camp, but I agree with your statements! Sometimes waiting to trash is the move.

[theblankman]

There's not much you can do about shuffle luck with Doctor.  The other two cards you mentioned are really trash-for-benefit.  Develop ostensibly thickens your deck (trash one card, gain two, although the gaining is sometimes impossible), so I tend to lump it more with cards like Remodel and Expand as opposed to Chapel and Steward.  Trade Route is also tfb, but its benefit takes a while to materialize, so if that's the trasher, I think it's very often better to get it late.  The tipping point seems to be something like, if it only trashes one card and doesn't otherwise benefit you on that turn, there's a good chance it'll hurt your building too much to be a worthwhile opener.  Forager is a great comparison to Trade Route in this sense.  They cost the same, but Forager is much better early because although it only trashes one card, it starts giving you money much sooner (it's also non-terminal but that matters less at the opening and more when your deck is already thin enough to make collision with other actions likely). 

[eHalcyon]

There's not much you can do about shuffle luck with Doctor.  The other two cards you mentioned are really trash-for-benefit.  Develop ostensibly thickens your deck (trash one card, gain two, although the gaining is sometimes impossible), so I tend to lump it more with cards like Remodel and Expand as opposed to Chapel and Steward.  Trade Route is also tfb, but its benefit takes a while to materialize, so if that's the trasher, I think it's very often better to get it late.  The tipping point seems to be something like, if it only trashes one card and doesn't otherwise benefit you on that turn, there's a good chance it'll hurt your building too much to be a worthwhile opener.  Forager is a great comparison to Trade Route in this sense.  They cost the same, but Forager is much better early because although it only trashes one card, it starts giving you money much sooner (it's also non-terminal but that matters less at the opening and more when your deck is already thin enough to make collision with other actions likely).

Trade Route is not TfB, at least not by the conventional definition.  When we say TfB, we mean cards that have benefit based on the trashed card, e.g. Salvager, Bishop, or even Counterfeit.  See here.

If we count any benefit for TfB, then arguably every trasher is TfB, since they all give you the benefit of removing junk cards from your deck.

[Holger]

There's not much you can do about shuffle luck with Doctor.  The other two cards you mentioned are really trash-for-benefit.  Develop ostensibly thickens your deck (trash one card, gain two, although the gaining is sometimes impossible), so I tend to lump it more with cards like Remodel and Expand as opposed to Chapel and Steward.  Trade Route is also tfb, but its benefit takes a while to materialize, so if that's the trasher, I think it's very often better to get it late.  The tipping point seems to be something like, if it only trashes one card and doesn't otherwise benefit you on that turn, there's a good chance it'll hurt your building too much to be a worthwhile opener.  Forager is a great comparison to Trade Route in this sense.  They cost the same, but Forager is much better early because although it only trashes one card, it starts giving you money much sooner (it's also non-terminal but that matters less at the opening and more when your deck is already thin enough to make collision with other actions likely).

Trade Route is not TfB, at least not by the conventional definition.  When we say TfB, we mean cards that have benefit based on the trashed card, e.g. Salvager, Bishop, or even Counterfeit.  See here.

If we count any benefit for TfB, then arguably every trasher is TfB, since they all give you the benefit of removing junk cards from your deck.

Agreed. I would call Trash RouteTrade Route, Altar etc. "Trash and benefit" - you do get a benefit other than trashing out of it, but it's unrelated to the trashing (you even get it when you can't trash a card).

[flies]

is forager TfB?  I mean, if you trash a new treasure, you get a benefit for that... 

[LastFootnote]

is forager TfB?  I mean, if you trash a new treasure, you get a benefit for that...

I'd say it isn't.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I use Trash for Benefit to refer to cards that give you some bonus effect in addition to trashing, whether its contingent on the trashing or not. So I include Forager, Trade Route, etc. You don't technically have to trash something to get the benefit, but in practice you almost always do. I don't include Lookout despite it giving benefits beyond trashing, sue me. I am not consistent.

To clarify, I don't include cards with a choice (i.e. Steward, Count) because the other benefits are in no sense tied to selecting the trashing option.

I have definitely seen others on the forum use the term to refer to Forager etc, I don't think there's consensus about whether those cards are included. Maybe we need a poll or something.

[Eevee]

You make your own TFB definition.

[blueblimp]

To clarify, I don't include cards with a choice (i.e. Steward, Count) because the other benefits are in no sense tied to selecting the trashing option.

Count is trash-for-penalty.

[Davio]

Well, if you put another terminal on top of your deck it's not.

[Awaclus]

I don't even use the term TfB (except I just did) really. I guess it's somewhat useful when we're talking about Peddler, Rats and Fortress, but in a normal game, it doesn't really matter if you're getting +$2 from Salvager because Estate costs $2 or +2 cards from Masquerade because Masquerade always gives +2 cards even if you don't trash a card from your hand.

[DG]

I think that with trash for benefit you are trashing cards that you would not trash without a benefit for doing so.

[Donald X.]

I use TFB to refer to cases where the card being trashed matters.

[Davio]

So if I use Trade Route to trash a Cultist, it's a TFB card, right?
And if I use Trade Route to trash a Curse, it's not?

I think TFB describes an event (trashing something and getting something in return based on what you trashed) rather than the card which triggers it.

[jsh357]

I use tfb as an acronym for Tears for Beers, my Tears for Fears cover band.

[Davio]

I use tfb as an acronym for Tears for Beers, my Tears for Fears cover band.

Does your band play the song "stout" instead of "shout"?

[AJD]

"Several cards allow you to trash a card and receive a bonus or benefit that depends on the cost (or occasionally other properties) of the trashed card(s). These are commonly referred to as trash-for-benefit (or 'TfB') cards. (Most trashers give you some benefit to your current turn other than trashing, and the term 'trash-for-benefit' is sometimes used more broadly to refer to all such cards.)"

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Trasher

[AJD]

[silverspawn]

in my definition, TFB is where the card matters minus on-trash effects. Apprentice, Remake, Salvager, and that stuff is TfB, Chapel, Steward, Mercenary, Forager, and that stuff isn't.

[Rubby]

"A trasher that cares what the trashed card is" is maybe the best way of putting it.
(Trade Route doesn't intrinsically care whether you trash a Cultist or a Copper -- the +3 cards is an effect inherent to Cultist, not to Trade Route -- thus Trade Route is not a TfB.)

Anyway, I agree that that is the most useful definition of trash for benefit.

Cards like Trade Route and Junk Dealer are probably better described as "trash with bonus".

[HiveMindEmulator]

The perils of trying to make a useful thread on f.ds that doesn't involve a specific game...

EDIT: In an attempt to be useful, I think that it's usually still important to buy the trasher early, but you have to make sure your other early cards are doing something to help advance your deck (gain, money, etc.). And sometimes you just have to opt to not trash. When you're trashing fast, the amount of improvement you get from just trashing makes not getting any good cards fine. But if your turn is like you said trading one bad card for another, you're not making as much ground as you could be. The actual $5 cards also makes a difference, since some of them can really help go through your deck early, which is nearly as good as trashing (e.g. Stables).

[mee]

i think that the main point is that once you get an engine w those 5 $cards you can trash in a few turns to make the engine much smoother b4 greening  I find that I jump 2 quickly for the slow trasher and that my opponent go for the engine pieces and then later goes for the trashing he comes out w a full engine first especially when there are limited pieces like bazar