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Author Topic: Preventing misclicks on Goko  (Read 6302 times)

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Davio

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Preventing misclicks on Goko
« on: September 22, 2014, 03:48:49 am »
0

They still happen to me occasionally and they're very annoying.

End Turn and Play Treasures are way too close and I think End Turn should double check if you haven't played your treasures yet and/or bought anything.
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yed

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2014, 04:22:32 am »
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Have you tried alternative buttons from Goko Salvager?
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Davio

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2014, 04:31:24 am »
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Have you tried alternative buttons from Goko Salvager?
No, I've seen them on a video, but I just use Salvager's default settings.
But something this basic shouldn't be covered up by having to use an extension. :)
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yed

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 04:37:47 am »
+7

Well, most of the Salvager features should be included in the original game...
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Davio

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2014, 05:42:17 am »
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Does anyone know how much active development is still being done on Goko?

Not a lot, I suspect...
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Awaclus

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 08:34:22 am »
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Does anyone know how much active development is still being done on Goko?

Not a lot, I suspect...
They're rewriting the entire thing.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 08:41:34 am »
+9

They *say* they're rewriting the entire thing.
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Davio

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2014, 09:59:09 am »
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Oh, but that's almost always a horrible idea.

It's a developer's wet dream to rewrite his entire code base every few years (I'm one of them too), but you'll inevitably end up introducing and fixing the same bugs again and again.

At work, we have a lot of business logic written in an ancient language/framework and we plan to port everything to Java. I wonder how much of the old bugs we'll get to see again...

I have often descended into that code hell (obviously a lot of it is written by me a couple of years back) and there's a lot of hardcoded horror in there for the unwary developer to discover. Lots of "if something equals <magic string here>'s" and we even grab some stuff from environment variables (which you'll easily forget when porting just the code). Should be fun!
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theory

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 10:03:17 am »
+2

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

Quote

The idea that new code is better than old is patently absurd. Old code has been used. It has been tested. Lots of bugs have been found, and they've been fixed. There's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't acquire bugs just by sitting around on your hard drive. Au contraire, baby! Is software supposed to be like an old Dodge Dart, that rusts just sitting in the garage? Is software like a teddy bear that's kind of gross if it's not made out of all new material?

Back to that two page function. Yes, I know, it's just a simple function to display a window, but it has grown little hairs and stuff on it and nobody knows why. Well, I'll tell you why: those are bug fixes. One of them fixes that bug that Nancy had when she tried to install the thing on a computer that didn't have Internet Explorer. Another one fixes that bug that occurs in low memory conditions. Another one fixes that bug that occurred when the file is on a floppy disk and the user yanks out the disk in the middle. That LoadLibrary call is ugly but it makes the code work on old versions of Windows 95.

Each of these bugs took weeks of real-world usage before they were found. The programmer might have spent a couple of days reproducing the bug in the lab and fixing it. If it's like a lot of bugs, the fix might be one line of code, or it might even be a couple of characters, but a lot of work and time went into those two characters.

When you throw away code and start from scratch, you are throwing away all that knowledge. All those collected bug fixes. Years of programming work.

You are throwing away your market leadership. You are giving a gift of two or three years to your competitors, and believe me, that is a long time in software years.
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Davio

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 10:23:54 am »
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Yeah, definitely read that a few years ago and I always keep it in mind when someone wants to redo everything every few years.

But the framework we have now has a very high yearly license cost and is so obscure that not many programmers know it. So I'm definitely all for porting it to Java eventually, but I'm very hesitant to start with the project, mainly for the reasons posted by Joel.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2014, 10:59:09 am »
+1

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

It's all situational. Goko's code was built on HTML5. The new management doesn't think that they can deliver a good experience on their target platforms using HTML5 (and I have no reason to doubt that). If they want to deliver on their promises, they have to rewrite their code.
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Awaclus

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2014, 11:28:57 am »
+3

Goko was originally supposed to be a platform for all kinds of board games and a lot of the difficulties with the code are apparently a result of that, so Making Fun is going to focus on Dominion alone. They aren't going to write the Goko code again, they're going to write a different code that's more suitable for Dominion. I think it was said at some point that it should be ready this year, but I doubt that's going to be the case.
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GeoLib

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2014, 01:15:38 pm »
+1

Also, I think the original goko code was outsourced and written mostly by people who didn't understand Dominion at all.
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blueblimp

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2014, 04:19:13 pm »
+3

It's certainly correct to be suspicious of rewrites, but in this case it _might_ work out okay for a few reasons.

1. The current code hasn't been around particularly long to accumulate subtle bug fixes. So that reduces the amount of hidden know-how that may be accidentally discarded by the rewrite.

2. The current implementation, although it does work, has a number of limitations that aren't inherent in board game implementations, like the poorly-scaling lobby system and the server needing to be restarted every so often because it slows down over time. These may indicate poor architectural choices.

3. The current implementation was poorly-scoped to begin with, like Awaclus mentioned, because it was intended to be a general platform for implementing board games rather than simply trying to be a good implementation of Dominion. By choosing a smaller scope for the new implementation, it should be possible to reduce the complexity significantly.

That all said, I feel like the current implementation is close enough to working that it ought to take less manpower to just patch on a few optimizations and fold some Salvager UI features into the official UI. That would mean that mobile and PC players might not be able to play vs each other, but I don't see that as a big problem necessarily.
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Kirian

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2014, 07:13:46 pm »
0

Odd question.

Had no one at Goko heard of Unity?
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theblankman

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2014, 09:06:55 pm »
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Had no one at Goko heard of Unity?
From what little I've read, Unity seems tailored for 3D graphic/animation-heavy games, so it's conceivable that someone thought it overkill for board games like Dominion.  Regardless why, I think I'm glad Goko used HTML5+JS because that enabled Salvager to exist.  If the rewrite is in Unity, I think Salvager will be dead. 

What I'd really love to see from MF is an API straight to the server, and of course a reference front-end in whatever framework they want, Unity, HTML, etc.  Some Chess and Go servers do this to allow bots into the general player pool.  It might be neat if we could write bots and test them against real players, and it would definitely be cool if the community had explicit permission to go write alternate interfaces.  We've shown plenty of willingness to work on the interface already (in the form of Salvager). 
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Awaclus

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2014, 09:27:34 pm »
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If the rewrite is in Unity, I think Salvager will be dead.
MF already confirmed that Salvager will be dead, and I think they also said they were going to implement most of its features before releasing the rewrite.
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Donald X.

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2014, 10:01:00 pm »
+4

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

Quote

The idea that new code is better than old is patently absurd. Old code has been used. It has been tested. Lots of bugs have been found, and they've been fixed. There's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't acquire bugs just by sitting around on your hard drive. Au contraire, baby! Is software supposed to be like an old Dodge Dart, that rusts just sitting in the garage? Is software like a teddy bear that's kind of gross if it's not made out of all new material?

Back to that two page function. Yes, I know, it's just a simple function to display a window, but it has grown little hairs and stuff on it and nobody knows why. Well, I'll tell you why: those are bug fixes. One of them fixes that bug that Nancy had when she tried to install the thing on a computer that didn't have Internet Explorer. Another one fixes that bug that occurs in low memory conditions. Another one fixes that bug that occurred when the file is on a floppy disk and the user yanks out the disk in the middle. That LoadLibrary call is ugly but it makes the code work on old versions of Windows 95.

Each of these bugs took weeks of real-world usage before they were found. The programmer might have spent a couple of days reproducing the bug in the lab and fixing it. If it's like a lot of bugs, the fix might be one line of code, or it might even be a couple of characters, but a lot of work and time went into those two characters.

When you throw away code and start from scratch, you are throwing away all that knowledge. All those collected bug fixes. Years of programming work.

You are throwing away your market leadership. You are giving a gift of two or three years to your competitors, and believe me, that is a long time in software years.
This is a narrow perspective, focused on code that in fact is not that awful.

There was one program in 6502 I had to rewrite that was full of self-modifying code. It was not possible to debug. It did not contain "all that knowledge." It contained an incredible dearth of knowledge about how to write computer programs and not much else.

I don't know where on the spectrum the Goko code lies, but for sure some code should be rewritten from scratch.
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GeoLib

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2014, 11:30:11 pm »
0

What I'd really love to see from MF is an API straight to the server, and of course a reference front-end in whatever framework they want, Unity, HTML, etc.  Some Chess and Go servers do this to allow bots into the general player pool.  It might be neat if we could write bots and test them against real players, and it would definitely be cool if the community had explicit permission to go write alternate interfaces.  We've shown plenty of willingness to work on the interface already (in the form of Salvager).

Oh god that would be so cool. I would pay extra money for this.
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Kirian

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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2014, 12:24:35 am »
0

Had no one at Goko heard of Unity?
From what little I've read, Unity seems tailored for 3D graphic/animation-heavy games, so it's conceivable that someone thought it overkill for board games like Dominion.

Man, whoever in the company told them that Unity is overkill for card games... should go try to tell Blizzard the same thing (and get laughed at doing so).
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Re: Preventing misclicks on Goko
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2014, 10:54:20 am »
0

I said "conceivable," not "right." :)
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