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Elanchana

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Deciding when to green
« on: September 21, 2014, 03:23:09 pm »
+1

Disclaimer: I don't know any sets very well except base, so my thoughts will be largely based (heh) around that.

During my very first Dominion game IRL, someone said that "Once that first province goes, it's only a matter of time before the game is over." Obviously it's more complicated than that though. I've played games where one person picks up a province on their first or second $8 turn but the other waits until they can double-province and snags the win. On the other hand, I've also played games where one person picks up an early province and then waits for the megaturn stage, beating their opponent from PPR and such. And of course that's not counting duchy tennis, gardening, three pile endings, yada yada yada. I haven't really grasped the "secret formula" for when to green, so I want to hear more experienced players' thoughts. What kind of criteria do you take into account when you decide when to buy victory points?
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2014, 03:25:14 pm »
0

I usually do it when I can consistently get enough Provinces to beat the other player.  If I'm on the losing end I might go for blind hope and get Provinces sooner.
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2014, 03:33:39 pm »
0

The way I like to think of it is that if I have all of the cards I need to keep my deck consistent enough to get Provinces most turns, I'm OK starting to green.  Naturally, all kinds of things can happen to change this during a game.  It really depends on what's available and how things are going for my opponent.
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2014, 03:35:35 pm »
+1

Some general rules for a typical Province-based game with no attacks:

Don't buy Provinces until turn 8 at the earliest

Don't buy Provinces on turns 9-10 if there is good deck building left to be done or good Alt sources of VP (like Monument, Goons, Nobles)

Buy a Province on turns 11, 12, 13, and 14.

If Harem is on the board and it is late enough that you would choose to buy a Province over a Gold with $8, then you should also choose to buy a Harem over a Gold with $6

When there are only 4 provinces left, consider buying a Duchy with < $8

When there are 3 or fewer provinces left, you very very likely want to buy a Duchy with < $8
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liopoil

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2014, 03:43:50 pm »
+5

Someone here once said, I forget who (ehalc? EDIT: It was tables) that the goal of dominion isn't to have the most points when the game ends, it's to end the game when you have the most points. To evaluate your deck, you look at how many points it has or can ensure getting before the game ends, and also at how much control over when the game ends it has relative to your opponent. When you buy a province, you usually decrease your control over when the game ends. However, sometimes, you increase how many points you can make sure you get before the game ends. This isn't always the case. The question you need to ask yourself is "Will buying this province increase my chance of having a score higher than my opponent's when the game ends?". Often time in engines the answer is no, you would get more points by buying more action cards so you can green with more power and for longer. But that isn't the only thing you need to take into account. Buying a province, while maybe giving you more points by the time the game ends, might also give your opponent more points before the game ends. If they are playing a deck with goons, monument, Alt-VP, or just an engine that needs to make sure the game doesn't 3-pile too soon, then by buying a province you give them more time before the game ends. It might be better to buy cards that work towards that 3-pile instead of the province, thus increasing your score relative to your opponent's when the game ends. In answering this question you also need to take into account endgame tactics like PPR. In general lower piles (be it provinces or low piles) when you have more points, don't when you have fewer points. But be careful that they don't catch up before you end the game. For example:

You are up 5 points and there are 3 provinces left. It's your turn, you are playing a BM strategy and have 8. Your opponent is playing an engine that will be able to double province but will stall quickly if it gets any more victory point cards. Here, even though you are winning and would want to get the province to accelerate the end of the game, you shouldn't get the province. Why? Because your opponent will catch up in time. By buying a duchy instead, you keep your chances alive. If your opponent takes two provinces you hopefully get the last one and win. If they take just 1 and a duchy, you have a good chance that they will stall on their next turn and you will be able to maintain your lead.

These principles also apply to all other cards too.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 04:24:02 pm by liopoil »
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2014, 04:18:15 pm »
+1

Someone here once said, I forget who (ehalc?) that the goal of dominion isn't to have the most points when the game ends, it's to end the game when you have the most points. To evaluate your deck, you look at how many points it has or can ensure getting before the game ends, and also at how much control over when the game ends it has relative to your opponent. When you buy a province, you usually decrease your control over when the game ends. However, sometimes, you increase how many points you can make sure you get before the game ends. This isn't always the case. The question you need to ask yourself is "Will buying this province increase my chance of having a score higher than my opponent's when the game ends?". Often time in engines the answer is no, you would get more points by buying more action cards so you can green with more power and for longer. But that isn't the only thing you need to take into account. Buying a province, while maybe giving you more points by the time the game ends, might also give your opponent more points before the game ends. If they are playing a deck with goons, monument, Alt-VP, or just an engine that needs to make sure the game doesn't 3-pile too soon, then by buying a province you give them more time before the game ends. It might be better to buy cards that work towards that 3-pile instead of the province, thus increasing your score relative to your opponent's when the game ends. In answering this question you also need to take into account endgame tactics like PPR. In general lower piles (be it provinces or low piles) when you have more points, don't when you have fewer points. But be careful that they don't catch up before you end the game. For example:

You are up 5 points and there are 3 provinces left. It's your turn, you are playing a BM strategy and have 8. Your opponent is playing an engine that will be able to double province but will stall quickly if it gets any more victory point cards. Here, even though you are winning and would want to get the province to accelerate the end of the game, you shouldn't get the province. Why? Because your opponent will catch up in time. By buying a duchy instead, you keep your chances alive. If your opponent takes two provinces you hopefully get the last one and win. If they take just 1 and a duchy, you have a good chance that they will stall on their next turn and you will be able to maintain your lead.

These principles also apply to all other cards too.
The one who said that is Tables and his original post is worth reading too. But don't read the rest of that thread, it's not a very good thread.


In typical engine games, you should keep building as long as you can. When you think your opponent is able to end the game and gain some points on his next turn, you should buy green cards in order to prevent that from happening (and if you think you're winning, take less risks). If there is no +buy available, then you can start buying Provinces when you think you can keep buying Provinces every turn until you win.

In typical big money games, you should have at least one Gold, preferably two, and at least one Action (and I mean the kind of Action you actually want for a big money deck, such as Smithy).
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 04:22:08 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 05:13:05 pm »
+9

"Once that first province goes, it's only a matter of time before the game is over."
Once the game begins, it's only a matter of time before the game is over.
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2014, 05:15:47 pm »
+2

"Once that first province goes, it's only a matter of time before the game is over."
Once the game begins, it's only a matter of time before the game is over.

My mother always told me that the fat lady singing dictated the end of all games
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2014, 05:18:30 pm »
+4

"Once that first province goes, it's only a matter of time before the game is over."
Once the game begins, it's only a matter of time before the game is over.
The Game never ends and I just lost it.
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2014, 01:17:51 pm »
0

Some general rules for a typical Province-based game with no attacks:

Don't buy Provinces until turn 8 at the earliest

Don't buy Provinces on turns 9-10 if there is good deck building left to be done or good Alt sources of VP (like Monument, Goons, Nobles)

Buy a Province on turns 11, 12, 13, and 14.

If Harem is on the board and it is late enough that you would choose to buy a Province over a Gold with $8, then you should also choose to buy a Harem over a Gold with $6

When there are only 4 provinces left, consider buying a Duchy with < $8

When there are 3 or fewer provinces left, you very very likely want to buy a Duchy with < $8


Wow, awful advice.

Awful, awful advice.

Even with your ¨no attack cards¨caveat, there are far too many scenarios to list that could change the tempo at which you buy VP cards, and which VP cards to prioritize


Your advice may be a decent starting point for a player starting out but at the pro level with all cards there are absolutely no general rules as to when exactly to green and even if such rules did exist, they certainly would not be turn dependent. You can´t generalize about when and which VP cards to buy.

If you disagree, I invite you to play some games against me and I will gladly beat you while defying your rules.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 01:24:01 pm by Count Grishnakh »
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2014, 04:16:22 pm »
+1

Gherald is a decent player, and I doubt that you could beat him. Moreover, I think his rules are a good starting point for typical province games. Not a universal rule, but a rule of thumb. Do you want to play some games against me too to show me how much better you are?

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2014, 04:18:44 pm »
+1

He said general rules.  Of course it depends on the board. The OP was asking for advice on when to green, and that really needs to be assessed individually on a board by board basis and tactically intra-game. Those above rules are pretty good for a province game with no +Buy.

And Gherald is a pretty good player, you'd likely have a hard time beating him regardless of the board.
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2014, 04:24:39 pm »
0

Gherald is a decent player, and I doubt that you could beat him. Moreover, I think his rules are a good starting point for typical province games. Not a universal rule, but a rule of thumb. Do you want to play some games against me too to show me how much better you are?

Wow, so much opposition in this post for someone who repeated exactly what I said myelf! I said it´s a good starting point but nothing more and that approach is just as likely to cause you to lose as it is to help you in many games

What exactly is a ¨¨typical province game_¨ to me this just sounds ludicrous and almost any game characterized thus is being oversimplified

People who think such as you and Gherald remind me of the Karate and Kung Fu ¨masters¨who are obssessed with forms to the point of being robotic

I am the Bruce Lee of Dominion, if you will, perfectly formless and spontaneous

Therefore you are no match for me, but you are welcome to try!

It is foolish to try to make a general rule about greening

There is indeed a science to building a deck

But greening, this is an artform and it eludes any fixed rule and is extremely situational

Come try your luck right now in Kings court if you are online!!! I will be multi tasking on the phone but I will still manage to make short work of you!
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2014, 04:26:55 pm »
0

He said general rules.  Of course it depends on the board. The OP was asking for advice on when to green, and that really needs to be assessed individually on a board by board basis and tactically intra-game. Those above rules are pretty good for a province game with no +Buy.

And Gherald is a pretty good player, you'd likely have a hard time beating him regardless of the board.

I know, and I am saying that it is not particularily helpful to have general rules, at all, doing so is just as likely to cause you to lose a game as it is to help you win a game! And of all things to base general rules on, number of turns!! My God.

Im in KINGS COURT IF ANYONE IS FEELING BRAVE!

« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 04:35:29 pm by Count Grishnakh »
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2014, 04:36:46 pm »
+1

Gherald is a decent player, and I doubt that you could beat him. Moreover, I think his rules are a good starting point for typical province games. Not a universal rule, but a rule of thumb. Do you want to play some games against me too to show me how much better you are?

Wow, so much opposition in this post for someone who repeated exactly what I said myelf! I said it´s a good starting point but nothing more and that approach is just as likely to cause you to lose as it is to help you in many games

What exactly is a ¨¨typical province game_¨ to me this just sounds ludicrous and almost any game characterized thus is being oversimplified

People who think such as you and Gherald remind me of the Karate and Kung Fu ¨masters¨who are obssessed with forms to the point of being robotic

I am the Bruce Lee of Dominion, if you will, perfectly formless and spontaneous

Therefore you are no match for me, but you are welcome to try!

It is foolish to try to make a general rule about greening

There is indeed a science to building a deck

But greening, this is an artform and it eludes any fixed rule and is extremely situational

Come try your luck right now in Kings court if you are online!!! I will be multi tasking on the phone but I will still manage to make short work of you!

Yeah, but you started out by saying it was awful, awful advice, so you kind of got the opposition going yourself. Gherald gave some very general (he even italicized general) rules that are decent when you're talking about no +buy/gain province games, especially if they're base only. Obviously we all know that just following these rules is going to cause you to get demolished against any reasonably good players.

You talk pretty damn big for someone who's not even in the top 1000 speaking to several people in the top 100 (and silverspawn was pushing top 10 quite recently).
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2014, 04:45:15 pm »
0

Gherald is a decent player, and I doubt that you could beat him. Moreover, I think his rules are a good starting point for typical province games. Not a universal rule, but a rule of thumb. Do you want to play some games against me too to show me how much better you are?

Wow, so much opposition in this post for someone who repeated exactly what I said myelf! I said it´s a good starting point but nothing more and that approach is just as likely to cause you to lose as it is to help you in many games

What exactly is a ¨¨typical province game_¨ to me this just sounds ludicrous and almost any game characterized thus is being oversimplified

People who think such as you and Gherald remind me of the Karate and Kung Fu ¨masters¨who are obssessed with forms to the point of being robotic

I am the Bruce Lee of Dominion, if you will, perfectly formless and spontaneous

Therefore you are no match for me, but you are welcome to try!

It is foolish to try to make a general rule about greening

There is indeed a science to building a deck

But greening, this is an artform and it eludes any fixed rule and is extremely situational

Come try your luck right now in Kings court if you are online!!! I will be multi tasking on the phone but I will still manage to make short work of you!

Yeah, but you started out by saying it was awful, awful advice, so you kind of got the opposition going yourself. Gherald gave some very general (he even italicized general) rules that are decent when you're talking about no +buy/gain province games, especially if they're base only. Obviously we all know that just following these rules is going to cause you to get demolished against any reasonably good players.

You talk pretty damn big for someone who's not even in the top 1000 speaking to several people in the top 100 (and silverspawn was pushing top 10 quite recently).

If the advice gets you demolished by reasonably good players then it is awful advice, this is not debatable!

Do not be fooled by my rank! I share this account with my brother, who sucks. Also, I quit games if people are slow, lowering my rank. I do not game the system like many of you do.

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Awaclus

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2014, 04:53:56 pm »
+4

If the advice gets you demolished by reasonably good players then it is awful advice, this is not debatable!

"All advice is awful"
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2014, 04:58:28 pm »
0

If the advice gets you demolished by reasonably good players then it is awful advice, this is not debatable!

"All advice is awful"
 —Count Grishnakh

Your conclusion does not logically follow from what I said

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2014, 05:06:26 pm »
+7

I don't think anybody who frequents this forum games the system. To throw out that accusation is incredibly rude.
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2014, 05:07:54 pm »
+4

It is, in a situation like this, advisable to forget everything that happened, and reread and judge the posts of the thread as if you were an outsider.

A new member on f.ds, who himself stated several times that he is new to the game, has opened a thread and asked for advise on when to green.

Gherald has then made a post in which he complies with the OP and gives some advise. The first line of his post specifically pointed out that these are general rules, and he even highlighted that part.

You responded by saying, that's awful advice, it doesn't work at all, if you don't believe me, come on and play me. This post heavily implies that you think you are a better player than Gherald, and that you are willing to publicly challenge him to a match to prove this.

Note that, at this point, the only post Gherald has made in this thread was some general advise, and that he hasn't in any way at all whatsoever implied that he is better, or worse at the game than anyone, or even touched on this line of thinking at all. Your statement

Quote
People who think such as you and Gherald remind me of the Karate and Kung Fu ¨masters¨who are obssessed with forms to the point of being robotic

is therefore completely unreasonable by any standard, and the idea to apply it to Gherald in the context of this thread is ludicrous.

So much for him. My post could be taken that way, as I was indeed purposefully implying that I think I am better at the game than you are. I say this bluntly, because it's the truth. I would never use this argument in a discussion just like that, but I am going to use it if someone else, who is in no position to do so, does it first. I'm just that kind of guy. Further note that you were the one who challenged someone else, and all I did was saying, hey I think what he said is true, so if you are willing to challenge him, you consequently must be willing to challenge me also.

Lastly, let me explain to you why this post is not working in our current situation.

Quote
If the advice gets you demolished by reasonably good players then it is awful advice, this is not debatable!

This is not the out of context thread. Gherald has directed his advise to a new player, and the claim for it to be applicable on high level play does not exist. therefore, whether or not reasonably good players contradict this rule sometimes is not relevant.

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2014, 05:11:35 pm »
0

Gherald is a decent player, and I doubt that you could beat him. Moreover, I think his rules are a good starting point for typical province games. Not a universal rule, but a rule of thumb. Do you want to play some games against me too to show me how much better you are?

Wow, so much opposition in this post for someone who repeated exactly what I said myelf! I said it´s a good starting point but nothing more and that approach is just as likely to cause you to lose as it is to help you in many games

What exactly is a ¨¨typical province game_¨ to me this just sounds ludicrous and almost any game characterized thus is being oversimplified

People who think such as you and Gherald remind me of the Karate and Kung Fu ¨masters¨who are obssessed with forms to the point of being robotic

I am the Bruce Lee of Dominion, if you will, perfectly formless and spontaneous

Therefore you are no match for me, but you are welcome to try!

It is foolish to try to make a general rule about greening

There is indeed a science to building a deck

But greening, this is an artform and it eludes any fixed rule and is extremely situational

Come try your luck right now in Kings court if you are online!!! I will be multi tasking on the phone but I will still manage to make short work of you!

Yeah, but you started out by saying it was awful, awful advice, so you kind of got the opposition going yourself. Gherald gave some very general (he even italicized general) rules that are decent when you're talking about no +buy/gain province games, especially if they're base only. Obviously we all know that just following these rules is going to cause you to get demolished against any reasonably good players.

You talk pretty damn big for someone who's not even in the top 1000 speaking to several people in the top 100 (and silverspawn was pushing top 10 quite recently).

If the advice gets you demolished by reasonably good players then it is awful advice, this is not debatable!

Do not be fooled by my rank! I share this account with my brother, who sucks. Also, I quit games if people are slow, lowering my rank. I do not game the system like many of you do.


Ah yes. Now accuse us of being cheaters. An excellent strategy.

I said that just following these rules will get you demolished by reasonably good players, which is actually a pretty high standard around here. Given that our starting point was "Once that first province goes, it's only a matter of time before the game is over" Gherald's advice is superb by comparison. This is advice being given to someone very new to the game and as a starting point. Not the be all and end all of Dominion Greening Tactics.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 05:13:58 pm by GeoLib »
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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2014, 05:22:08 pm »
0

Gherald is a decent player, and I doubt that you could beat him. Moreover, I think his rules are a good starting point for typical province games. Not a universal rule, but a rule of thumb. Do you want to play some games against me too to show me how much better you are?

Wow, so much opposition in this post for someone who repeated exactly what I said myelf! I said it´s a good starting point but nothing more and that approach is just as likely to cause you to lose as it is to help you in many games

What exactly is a ¨¨typical province game_¨ to me this just sounds ludicrous and almost any game characterized thus is being oversimplified

People who think such as you and Gherald remind me of the Karate and Kung Fu ¨masters¨who are obssessed with forms to the point of being robotic

I am the Bruce Lee of Dominion, if you will, perfectly formless and spontaneous

Therefore you are no match for me, but you are welcome to try!

It is foolish to try to make a general rule about greening

There is indeed a science to building a deck

But greening, this is an artform and it eludes any fixed rule and is extremely situational

Come try your luck right now in Kings court if you are online!!! I will be multi tasking on the phone but I will still manage to make short work of you!

Yeah, but you started out by saying it was awful, awful advice, so you kind of got the opposition going yourself. Gherald gave some very general (he even italicized general) rules that are decent when you're talking about no +buy/gain province games, especially if they're base only. Obviously we all know that just following these rules is going to cause you to get demolished against any reasonably good players.

You talk pretty damn big for someone who's not even in the top 1000 speaking to several people in the top 100 (and silverspawn was pushing top 10 quite recently).

If the advice gets you demolished by reasonably good players then it is awful advice, this is not debatable!

Do not be fooled by my rank! I share this account with my brother, who sucks. Also, I quit games if people are slow, lowering my rank. I do not game the system like many of you do.


Ah yes. Now accuse us of being cheaters. An excellent strategy.

I said that just following these rules will get you demolished by reasonably good players, which is actually a pretty high standard around here. Given that our starting point was "Once that first province goes, it's only a matter of time before the game is over" Gherald's advice is superb by comparison. This is advice being given to someone very new to the game and as a starting point. Not the be all and end all of Dominion Greening Tactics.

So his awful advice was superior to a vague observation about the tempo of the game, that doesn´t make his advise helpful.


Also, I did concede that gheralds advice is a starting point, but as far as starting points go its pretty bad...

Of all of the parameters you could advise a new player to focus on, he would advise focusing on number of turns????.... one would be better off going on an intuitive approach, as far as ¨starting points¨ and ¨generic advice¨go
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2014, 05:26:05 pm »
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Gherald is a decent player, and I doubt that you could beat him. Moreover, I think his rules are a good starting point for typical province games. Not a universal rule, but a rule of thumb. Do you want to play some games against me too to show me how much better you are?

Wow, so much opposition in this post for someone who repeated exactly what I said myelf! I said it´s a good starting point but nothing more and that approach is just as likely to cause you to lose as it is to help you in many games

What exactly is a ¨¨typical province game_¨ to me this just sounds ludicrous and almost any game characterized thus is being oversimplified

People who think such as you and Gherald remind me of the Karate and Kung Fu ¨masters¨who are obssessed with forms to the point of being robotic

I am the Bruce Lee of Dominion, if you will, perfectly formless and spontaneous

Therefore you are no match for me, but you are welcome to try!

It is foolish to try to make a general rule about greening

There is indeed a science to building a deck

But greening, this is an artform and it eludes any fixed rule and is extremely situational

Come try your luck right now in Kings court if you are online!!! I will be multi tasking on the phone but I will still manage to make short work of you!

Yeah, but you started out by saying it was awful, awful advice, so you kind of got the opposition going yourself. Gherald gave some very general (he even italicized general) rules that are decent when you're talking about no +buy/gain province games, especially if they're base only. Obviously we all know that just following these rules is going to cause you to get demolished against any reasonably good players.

You talk pretty damn big for someone who's not even in the top 1000 speaking to several people in the top 100 (and silverspawn was pushing top 10 quite recently).

If the advice gets you demolished by reasonably good players then it is awful advice, this is not debatable!

Do not be fooled by my rank! I share this account with my brother, who sucks. Also, I quit games if people are slow, lowering my rank. I do not game the system like many of you do.


Ah yes. Now accuse us of being cheaters. An excellent strategy.

I said that just following these rules will get you demolished by reasonably good players, which is actually a pretty high standard around here. Given that our starting point was "Once that first province goes, it's only a matter of time before the game is over" Gherald's advice is superb by comparison. This is advice being given to someone very new to the game and as a starting point. Not the be all and end all of Dominion Greening Tactics.

Gaming the system does not equal cheating, and I did not indend to say that.

I am simply pointing out that most serious players do game the ranking system, which means making a game out of it

There is nothing wrong with doing so

But I simply do not regard my ranking. If a player is slow in the first few turns, I quit the game, ranking be damned.

If I think the board looks boring, I quit the game in turn one, ranking be damned.

Many take ranking very seriously, and that´s fine, but I dont want to hear snooty players tell me that I talk big for someone with a X rank on Goko.
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markusin

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2014, 05:49:18 pm »
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Using number of turns may not be the most intuitive measurement to base decisions on, but against new players there isn't much choice here. We have benchmarks on how fast an unopposed Smithy or Jack of all Trades gets Provinces. How are you supposed to judge the viability of your strategy against someone who, say, buys only Villages. Also, Base set tends to have a lot of straight rush-for-provinces games.

Clearly, there is a disagreement on what can be considered "decent" and what is "awful".

I believe that Gherald's advice works well as a base point, and that a player will gradually learn to break all those rules as they play more and against stronger opponents. What's the alternative? Tell a new player that it depends on the board using 10,000 words?
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Count Grishnakh

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Re: Deciding when to green
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2014, 06:20:51 pm »
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Using number of turns may not be the most intuitive measurement to base decisions on, but against new players there isn't much choice here. We have benchmarks on how fast an unopposed Smithy or Jack of all Trades gets Provinces. How are you supposed to judge the viability of your strategy against someone who, say, buys only Villages. Also, Base set tends to have a lot of straight rush-for-provinces games.

Clearly, there is a disagreement on what can be considered "decent" and what is "awful".

I believe that Gherald's advice works well as a base point, and that a player will gradually learn to break all those rules as they play more and against stronger opponents. What's the alternative? Tell a new player that it depends on the board using 10,000 words?


Whats the alternative?????.... Whats the alternative??? WHAT A QUESTION! But clearly one in dire need of an answer...

First of all let me be clear, I did not say that using number of turns as a parameter is not intuitive, I said that it is such a useless parameter to track for the purpose of timing VP buys that you would be better off going off of an intuitive approach

therefore, any advise that is outperformed by one´s own intuitive ¨gut instinct¨ is absolutely horrid advice,

because an intuitive approach frees up the mind so that the mind can track other variables, which brings me to the Alternative

the alternative is to pay attention to OTHER PARAMETERS BESIDES TURN NUMBER, TO SEE HOW DIFFERENT CARDS AND OTHER VARIABLES AFFECT THE TEMPO OF THE GAME... AND THUS HOW TO BEST TIME ONES VP BUYS..... The ¨alternatives¨ are myriad, and this advise is awful even for a beginner because a beginner would be better served paying attention to OTHER VARIABLES and measuring  parameters other than turn number!!

« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 06:23:44 pm by Count Grishnakh »
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