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[Gherald]

The ¨alternatives¨ are myriad, and this advise is awful even for a beginner because a beginner would be better served paying attention to OTHER VARIABLES and measuring  parameters other than turn number!!

If the beginner is already able to pay attention to other variables, they are not a beginner

[eHalcyon]

Gaming the system does not equal cheating, and I did not indend to say that.

I am simply pointing out that most serious players do game the ranking system, which means making a game out of it

There is nothing wrong with doing so

But I simply do not regard my ranking. If a player is slow in the first few turns, I quit the game, ranking be damned.

If I think the board looks boring, I quit the game in turn one, ranking be damned.

Many take ranking very seriously, and that´s fine, but I dont want to hear snooty players tell me that I talk big for someone with a X rank on Goko.

You ought to be more careful with your words.  To "game" a system typically means to cheat or exploit a flaw in that system.  Serious players would never do this.  It is, in fact, a chief concern of serious players because it hurts the validity of the rankings.  There are people who game the system (e.g. by making fake accounts to rig matches).

As for snootiness, you were the first one to bring a "try and beat me" attitude to this thread.  If anyone was snooty, it was you.  Rank is an objective way to measure a player's ability.  We know it's not perfect (I personally don't even play on Goko), but it's still true that your words will have more weight if you have a high rank to back them up.  Maybe your rank is low because of your brother, or because you are severely impatient.  But as far as we know, you could just be a bad player spouting excuses.  Maybe you would be #1 if you gave a damn, but statistics say that you probably aren't anywhere close.  Maybe you should take up your challenge with silverspawn.

I'd also like to point out something you said:

Your advice may be a decent starting point for a player starting out

Which is exactly what it was meant to be.

[Awaclus]

If the advice gets you demolished by reasonably good players then it is awful advice, this is not debatable!

"All advice is awful"
 —Count Grishnakh

Your conclusion does not logically follow from what I said

You bolded the part "Obviously we all know that just following these rules is going to cause you to get demolished against any reasonably good players.", so I assumed that your post was mostly directed at that. For most Dominion advice, just following that advice is "going to cause you to get demolished against any reasonably good players [when the advice is not suitable for the kingdom you're playing]", so either you're basically saying that all advice is awful or you don't actually think that "if the advice gets you demolished by reasonably good players then it is awful advice".

[GeoLib]

Using number of turns may not be the most intuitive measurement to base decisions on, but against new players there isn't much choice here. We have benchmarks on how fast an unopposed Smithy or Jack of all Trades gets Provinces. How are you supposed to judge the viability of your strategy against someone who, say, buys only Villages. Also, Base set tends to have a lot of straight rush-for-provinces games.

Clearly, there is a disagreement on what can be considered "decent" and what is "awful".

I believe that Gherald's advice works well as a base point, and that a player will gradually learn to break all those rules as they play more and against stronger opponents. What's the alternative? Tell a new player that it depends on the board using 10,000 words?

Whats the alternative??.... Whats the alternative??? WHAT A QUESTION! But clearly one in dire need of an answer...

First of all let me be clear, I did not say that using number of turns as a parameter is not intuitive, I said that it is such a useless parameter to track for the purpose of timing VP buys that you would be better off going off of an intuitive approach

therefore, any advise that is outperformed by one´s own intuitive ¨gut instinct¨ is absolutely horrid advice,

because an intuitive approach frees up the mind so that the mind can track other variables, which brings me to the Alternative

the alternative is to pay attention to OTHER PARAMETERS BESIDES TURN NUMBER, TO SEE HOW DIFFERENT CARDS AND OTHER VARIABLES AFFECT THE TEMPO OF THE GAME... AND THUS HOW TO BEST TIME ONES VP BUYS..... The ¨alternatives¨ are myriad, and this advise is awful even for a beginner because a beginner would be better served paying attention to OTHER VARIABLES and measuring  parameters other than turn number!!

Despite all the bold and capitalization, this post does not contain any actual strategy advice (which is true of all of your other posts too, actually).


Elanchana: sorry your thread has been so thoroughly derailed. The best advice I can give you is to see if SCSN is still doing his "teach beginners to play" thing. He did a nice set of (videoed) games against a beginner player, which I believe were successful and you might be able to convince him to make the next set against you http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11149.0

[Awaclus]

and you might be able to convince him to make the next set against you

Yeah, it might be that he can't say no.

[Count Grishnakh]

If the advice gets you demolished by reasonably good players then it is awful advice, this is not debatable!

"All advice is awful"
 —Count Grishnakh

Your conclusion does not logically follow from what I said

You bolded the part "Obviously we all know that just following these rules is going to cause you to get demolished against any reasonably good players.", so I assumed that your post was mostly directed at that. For most Dominion advice, just following that advice is "going to cause you to get demolished against any reasonably good players [when the advice is not suitable for the kingdom you're playing]", so either you're basically saying that all advice is awful or you don't actually think that "if the advice gets you demolished by reasonably good players then it is awful advice".

You are thinking way too literally and I hope you are having fun playing games with words but you need not pretend that you are being logical.

[Count Grishnakh]

Using number of turns may not be the most intuitive measurement to base decisions on, but against new players there isn't much choice here. We have benchmarks on how fast an unopposed Smithy or Jack of all Trades gets Provinces. How are you supposed to judge the viability of your strategy against someone who, say, buys only Villages. Also, Base set tends to have a lot of straight rush-for-provinces games.

Clearly, there is a disagreement on what can be considered "decent" and what is "awful".

I believe that Gherald's advice works well as a base point, and that a player will gradually learn to break all those rules as they play more and against stronger opponents. What's the alternative? Tell a new player that it depends on the board using 10,000 words?

Whats the alternative??.... Whats the alternative??? WHAT A QUESTION! But clearly one in dire need of an answer...

First of all let me be clear, I did not say that using number of turns as a parameter is not intuitive, I said that it is such a useless parameter to track for the purpose of timing VP buys that you would be better off going off of an intuitive approach

therefore, any advise that is outperformed by one´s own intuitive ¨gut instinct¨ is absolutely horrid advice,

because an intuitive approach frees up the mind so that the mind can track other variables, which brings me to the Alternative

the alternative is to pay attention to OTHER PARAMETERS BESIDES TURN NUMBER, TO SEE HOW DIFFERENT CARDS AND OTHER VARIABLES AFFECT THE TEMPO OF THE GAME... AND THUS HOW TO BEST TIME ONES VP BUYS..... The ¨alternatives¨ are myriad, and this advise is awful even for a beginner because a beginner would be better served paying attention to OTHER VARIABLES and measuring  parameters other than turn number!!

Despite all the bold and capitalization, this post does not contain any actual strategy advice (which is true of all of your other posts too, actually).


Elanchana: sorry your thread has been so thoroughly derailed. The best advice I can give you is to see if SCSN is still doing his "teach beginners to play" thing. He did a nice set of (videoed) games against a beginner player, which I believe were successful and you might be able to convince him to make the next set against you http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11149.0

It is not my intent to offer strategy advice, nor is the honus on me to provide such advice, nor do I have time to give out strategy advice. I am busy enough warding off various pestilent posters who are splitting hairs, diverting from the essence of my critique, and trying to discredit me in whatever manner they can manage to do so.

You yourself are diverting from the real issue by saying ¨you offer no strategic advice¨ as if that somehow invalidates my critique.

How can I have time to talk strategy when my hands are full teaching people how to be logical...


By the way my critique and my explanation on what NOT to do is far more useful for a beginner than counting turns and having a turn based schedule for province purchasing.. LOL! How rich.. Keep the hilarious idiocies coming, folks, I will pour myself another glass of brandy, step into my cigar room, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with next!!

[GeoLib]

It is not my intent to offer strategy advice, nor is the honus on me to provide such advice, nor do I have time to give out strategy advice. I am busy enough warding off various pestilent posters who are splitting hairs, diverting from the essence of my critique, and trying to discredit me in whatever manner they can manage to do so.

The question you claimed to answer with your rambling post was "What's the alternative?" However, you did not actually offer an alternative, unless your proposal is that when novice players ask for strategy advice that the best response is to ignore them or tell them to "pay attention to variables other than turn number."

Since this thread has degenerated into name-calling, I shall stop "trying to discredit" you, and go discredit others, as is my wont.

[silverspawn]

You are not arguing logically. I made a post explaining why you don't, and you didn't respond. If you really want to go with the "the forum just sucks, I'm the only one who gets it" mentality (sorry, but that's how it comes across to me), at least address every post. Even ErrinF did that.

Unrelated, the offer for our match still stands.

[jsh357]

I hope this type of discourse isn't that discouraging to you, Elanchana (if you didn't already stop visiting the forums after all this).  You're still new to the game; try and just have fun discovering new combos and such for now--one thing none of the better players can say is that anything's truly fresh for them at this point, and you should enjoy that aspect of the game as long as possible.  You'll get better without any input from others over time, though there's no harm in looking for advice either.  Dominion's fun for a lot of different reasons, and its complexity is only one.

[Count Grishnakh]

I hope this type of discourse isn't that discouraging to you, Elanchana (if you didn't already stop visiting the forums after all this).  You're still new to the game; try and just have fun discovering new combos and such for now--one thing none of the better players can say is that anything's truly fresh for them at this point, and you should enjoy that aspect of the game as long as possible.  You'll get better without any input from others over time, though there's no harm in looking for advice either.  Dominion's fun for a lot of different reasons, and its complexity is only one.

wise advise

this is how i learned

i also recommend playing against bots

the advantage is this.. You will feel more free to experiment and you wont worry about how you look in front of others

I practiced with bots for hundreds of games before I played against a single human, and I still think it was a great way to learn

[Count Grishnakh]

It is not my intent to offer strategy advice, nor is the honus on me to provide such advice, nor do I have time to give out strategy advice. I am busy enough warding off various pestilent posters who are splitting hairs, diverting from the essence of my critique, and trying to discredit me in whatever manner they can manage to do so.

The question you claimed to answer with your rambling post was "What's the alternative?" However, you did not actually offer an alternative, unless your proposal is that when novice players ask for strategy advice that the best response is to ignore them or tell them to "pay attention to variables other than turn number."

Since this thread has degenerated into name-calling, I shall stop "trying to discredit" you, and go discredit others, as is my wont.

well since everyone discredits everything i say, why on earth would i offer my alternative solution in detail¿ you smear all that i say and distort it, anyway, so why would i bother offering a detailed essay on this subject¿ I certainly have such an essay in me, but if my words are to be smeared by the impudent rabble, then I will only paint my alternative in broad brush strokes

I would basically have to write an essay to do so, and I am not going to waste my time, not when I get this type of reception

but you know the game well, do not play dumb, you know what variables are relevant for timing your VP purchases

[Count Grishnakh]

You are not arguing logically. I made a post explaining why you don't, and you didn't respond. If you really want to go with the "the forum just sucks, I'm the only one who gets it" mentality (sorry, but that's how it comes across to me), at least address every post. Even ErrinF did that.

Unrelated, the offer for our match still stands.

lets do it

 name the time and place

[scott_pilgrim]

It is not my intent to offer strategy advice, nor is the honus on me to provide such advice, nor do I have time to give out strategy advice. I am busy enough warding off various pestilent posters who are splitting hairs, diverting from the essence of my critique, and trying to discredit me in whatever manner they can manage to do so.

You yourself are diverting from the real issue by saying ¨you offer no strategic advice¨ as if that somehow invalidates my critique.

How can I have time to talk strategy when my hands are full teaching people how to be logical...


By the way my critique and my explanation on what NOT to do is far more useful for a beginner than counting turns and having a turn based schedule for province purchasing.. LOL! How rich.. Keep the hilarious idiocies coming, folks, I will pour myself another glass of brandy, step into my cigar room, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with next!!

Generally, if you say someone's advice is awful, you're implicitly saying "I could give better advice".  You say you don't have time to come up with better advice because you're busy warding off everyone else's comments, but I would say, giving better advice would be sufficient response to the comments.

[Awaclus]

i also recommend playing against bots

the advantage is this.. You will feel more free to experiment and you wont worry about how you look in front of others

I practiced with bots for hundreds of games before I played against a single human, and I still think it was a great way to learn

...how to play against the bots. It's not a great way to learn how to play against people.

You are thinking way too literally and I hope you are having fun playing games with words but you need not pretend that you are being logical.

Oh, my mistake. Now that I'm not thinking too literally, it looks like you were saying Gherald's advice was in fact good for the purpose it served, and in that light, I no longer have a problem with it!

My statement is relevant and I have backed it up. If you want to refute it, you have to do it properly; just implying how illogical I'm being isn't quite sufficient.

[silverspawn]

You are not arguing logically. I made a post explaining why you don't, and you didn't respond. If you really want to go with the "the forum just sucks, I'm the only one who gets it" mentality (sorry, but that's how it comes across to me), at least address every post. Even ErrinF did that.

Unrelated, the offer for our match still stands.

lets do it

 name the time and place

i have no idea in which time zone you live. i have time during the next ~12 hours.

[Titandrake]

popcorn.gif

Since this thread has gone way out of alignment, here's my baseline metrics for when to start greening. It's much more important to base off shuffle count, rather than turn count.

- In a money based game, greening after buying the first Gold and shuffling it into your deck is safe. Province after Gold + 2-3 Silvers is safe. Greening with 1 Gold + 1 Silver is almost certainly too early, but the odds of hitting $8 with that is fairly unlikely.
- In an engine board, very very generally you should not be greening before you're getting $12 in a turn. You are presumably getting at least 2 buys a turn, so your goal should be 2 Province or Province + engine component every turn. $12 is a magic number - it's Province + $4 cost which feels okay to me.
-- (If you have no +Buys but are playing an engine-like deck, then the standard "buy Province on $8" is correct, but you should delay Duchies more than you would normally.)

[Count Grishnakh]

i also recommend playing against bots

the advantage is this.. You will feel more free to experiment and you wont worry about how you look in front of others

I practiced with bots for hundreds of games before I played against a single human, and I still think it was a great way to learn

...how to play against the bots. It's not a great way to learn how to play against people.

You are thinking way too literally and I hope you are having fun playing games with words but you need not pretend that you are being logical.

Oh, my mistake. Now that I'm not thinking too literally, it looks like you were saying Gherald's advice was in fact good for the purpose it served, and in that light, I no longer have a problem with it!

My statement is relevant and I have backed it up. If you want to refute it, you have to do it properly; just implying how illogical I'm being isn't quite sufficient.

By literally I mean, you seem to think that when I say ¨this is bad advice because it would cause you to lose against skilled players¨

you assume that this would be true for all advice, because all advice, if followed without reference to all other factors, would likewise lead to the same result...


it is this last assumption that is false, I said no such thing, that is your erroneous assumption, and it is absurd on your part to assume that my words had that meaning. Of COURSE all advice would lead to bad results if followed in isolation of all other factors.

Now I did mention that there are so many other pertinent factors that need to be considered, and while I agree that this applies to all advice, this paticular advice is particularily useless because this advise should be abandoned the majority of the time, and it also distracts the player from more important factors, thus delaying learning process of the finer points of the game

for this reason, I deem this advice impractical and useless, at best this incredibly simple advice would be suitable for a players first handful of games, but then for the first game one would be better for a player to focus on the CARDS, not the TURNS for the first few games anyways.

You, like others on this board, have an irritating habit of conjuring up a phantom premise, adding implications to my words that are not warranted, seemingly in order to make it easier for you to discredit my opinion

It is exhausting and I won´t continue to tutor you in logic and clean up your sloppy thinking unless you would like to pay me for my efforts..

Look at what this discourse has devolved into, all because of your petty diversions and your absurd interpretations of my words.

[Count Grishnakh]

popcorn.gif

Since this thread has gone way out of alignment, here's my baseline metrics for when to start greening. It's much more important to base off shuffle count, rather than turn count.

- In a money based game, greening after buying the first Gold and shuffling it into your deck is safe. Province after Gold + 2-3 Silvers is safe. Greening with 1 Gold + 1 Silver is almost certainly too early, but the odds of hitting $8 with that is fairly unlikely.
- In an engine board, very very generally you should not be greening before you're getting $12 in a turn. You are presumably getting at least 2 buys a turn, so your goal should be 2 Province or Province + engine component every turn. $12 is a magic number - it's Province + $4 cost which feels okay to me.
-- (If you have no +Buys but are playing an engine-like deck, then the standard "buy Province on $8" is correct, but you should delay Duchies more than you would normally.)

Yes I am all for getting this thread back into alignment, and your points are well taken.

See, if you one s going to make gross generalizations about greening, these types of variables, or  (say) whether or not extra buys are available, are far more useful parameters to consider than number of turns, and therefore I approve of your advice

[Count Grishnakh]

You are not arguing logically. I made a post explaining why you don't, and you didn't respond. If you really want to go with the "the forum just sucks, I'm the only one who gets it" mentality (sorry, but that's how it comes across to me), at least address every post. Even ErrinF did that.

Unrelated, the offer for our match still stands.

lets do it

 name the time and place

i have no idea in which time zone you live. i have time during the next ~12 hours.

I will leave a game open in KINGS COURT.. meet me there when you are ready, i will be awake for a few more hours

if I dont respond in goko send me a PM on this forum

If anyone else if feeling brave they are welcome to battle me in KINGS COURT

[Count Grishnakh]

It is not my intent to offer strategy advice, nor is the honus on me to provide such advice, nor do I have time to give out strategy advice. I am busy enough warding off various pestilent posters who are splitting hairs, diverting from the essence of my critique, and trying to discredit me in whatever manner they can manage to do so.

You yourself are diverting from the real issue by saying ¨you offer no strategic advice¨ as if that somehow invalidates my critique.

How can I have time to talk strategy when my hands are full teaching people how to be logical...


By the way my critique and my explanation on what NOT to do is far more useful for a beginner than counting turns and having a turn based schedule for province purchasing.. LOL! How rich.. Keep the hilarious idiocies coming, folks, I will pour myself another glass of brandy, step into my cigar room, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with next!!

Generally, if you say someone's advice is awful, you're implicitly saying "I could give better advice".  You say you don't have time to come up with better advice because you're busy warding off everyone else's comments, but I would say, giving better advice would be sufficient response to the comments.

I am making general statements about my alternative advice, and although I am not going into detail, you can imagine what I mean when I say its better to focus on other variables, assuming you understand the word and you are an astute and seasoned player of DOMINION

Now listen here young man, there is nothing logical about your statement that I need to provide good advice to prove the validity of my critique



The validity of a critique does not rest on offering a better alternative! Why don´t you understand that?


 I was generous to even give you an inculcation of what my alternative would be

If anyone is genuinely interested I will be happy to write an article detailing my ideas but you´re a fool if you think I am wrong for not writing an essay about my ideas to such a hostile, antagonistic bunch who hasn´t even addressed the arguments that I have made, why would I waste time elaborating?

[dondon151]

Oh, we're not a hostile, antagonistic bunch. f.ds is the nicest forum that I frequent. Maybe you're seeing your reflection off the lens with which you're scrutinizing us.

[Count Grishnakh]

The ¨alternatives¨ are myriad, and this advise is awful even for a beginner because a beginner would be better served paying attention to OTHER VARIABLES and measuring  parameters other than turn number!!

If the beginner is already able to pay attention to other variables, they are not a beginner

What? So basically your advice is for someone who has played less than 5 games then? Or someone who is mentally challenged? Because I was able to pay close attention to more important parameters of each game and each turn within my first 15 games or so, and time my greening accordingly.

Sure I had not mastered my technique, but I at least was paying attention and learning accordingly

so basically your advice would work for someone with less than 15 games? In that case why not just let them play 15 games and get an intuitive feel for the game? Why try to have a schedule for buying provinces? Its ludicrous

[Count Grishnakh]

Oh, we're not a hostile, antagonistic bunch. f.ds is the nicest forum that I frequent. Maybe you're seeing your reflection off the lens with which you're scrutinizing us.

I am not antagonistic or mean spirited I simply enjoy speaking my mind and I lack patience for expressing myself diplomatically, for that, I apologize.

A nice bunch? Perhaps but I expected more logic from the likes of you and less impudence. I think you guys have an intense hive mind tribal mentality going on and you guys are backing up one of your own

loyalty to friends is admirable, but sloppy thinking, warped logic, advocating awful advice, not so much

[eHalcyon]

You've spent an inordinate amount of time in this thread putting people down and propping yourself up, criticizing others' advice without offering any of your own, and playing the part of the victim when others criticize you in turn.  You claim you have no time to give any advice, but you've spent plenty of time here arguing semantics and throwing insults.  When you mentioned that players should spend time tracking variables and parameters other than the turn number, surely you could have given a few examples. 

I'm going to point this out again, since you blithely ignored it the first time:

I'd also like to point out something you said:

Your advice may be a decent starting point for a player starting out

Which is exactly what it was meant to be.

And as for this:

If anyone is genuinely interested I will be happy to write an article detailing my ideas but you´re a fool if you think I am wrong for not writing an essay about my ideas to such a hostile, antagonistic bunch who hasn´t even addressed the arguments that I have made, why would I waste time elaborating?

The thread was the height of civility until you came in.  A couple of people objected to your hostility and antagonism, to which you took even greater offense.  And then it snowballed from there.

I haven't seen any arguments you brought up that haven't been thoroughly addressed.  If something has been missed, feel free to bring it back up.

I'll add that I find it amusingly ironic that you were so outraged at Gherald's advice (which you admitted was a fine starting point for a beginner but useless for advanced players, as if nobody knew that already) and then later recommended playing against bots, which is an activity that is also a fine starting point for beginners and also useless for advanced players trying to improve their game.


Oh, new posts...

The ¨alternatives¨ are myriad, and this advise is awful even for a beginner because a beginner would be better served paying attention to OTHER VARIABLES and measuring  parameters other than turn number!!

If the beginner is already able to pay attention to other variables, they are not a beginner

What? So basically your advice is for someone who has played less than 5 games then? Or someone who is mentally challenged? Because I was able to pay close attention to more important parameters of each game and each turn within my first 15 games or so, and time my greening accordingly.

Sure I had not mastered my technique, but I at least was paying attention and learning accordingly

so basically your advice would work for someone with less than 15 games? In that case why not just let them play 15 games and get an intuitive feel for the game? Why try to have a schedule for buying provinces? Its ludicrous

Again, what parameters?  How do they affect your timing?  You're not offering anything of value here.  If you are such a pro, it should be easy to offer the answers to these questions.

Oh, we're not a hostile, antagonistic bunch. f.ds is the nicest forum that I frequent. Maybe you're seeing your reflection off the lens with which you're scrutinizing us.

I am not antagonistic or mean spirited I simply enjoy speaking my mind and I lack patience for expressing myself diplomatically, for that, I apologize.

A nice bunch? Perhaps but I expected more logic from the likes of you and less impudence. I think you guys have an intense hive mind tribal mentality going on and you guys are backing up one of your own

loyalty to friends is admirable, but sloppy thinking, warped logic, advocating awful advice, not so much

Perhaps you should give others the same benefit of the doubt then.

I'm seen more logic and rationality from the "hive mind" than from you so far.  Impudence?  That implies that you are some sort of authority figure.  Sorry, you aren't.  If you want respect, you shouldn't jump into a thread just to insult people and then proclaim yourself the "Bruce Lee" of anything at all.  So far, people have been far more respectful to you than you have been to others.

And to be clear, I'm not defending Gherald here out of any sort of loyalty.  I've had relatively unfriendly debates with him in this forum, and I can't recall being in agreement with him before.  But he at least remained civil in all discussion.  Nobody is advocating awful advice here.  Again, you said it yourself -- it's a decent starting point for a beginner.  His advice was OK given the context.