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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards  (Read 17519 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2014, 04:14:03 pm »
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Quote
It's just giving you information -- the why.
fair point.

however, if you ignore jack more often than sea hag, you're doing something wrong.
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2014, 04:28:34 pm »
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I don't think so?  I probably buy Sea Hag 95% of the time and Jack 85% of the time, something like that
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liopoil

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2014, 04:31:18 pm »
+1

You should ignore sea hag a lot more than 5% of the time. All it takes is some strong trashing. Even without strong trashing you can often ignore it.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2014, 04:33:52 pm »
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I think I ignore hag about 50% of all time. maybe a little bit less
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2014, 04:38:00 pm »
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Hmm, well I can't really comment other than to say I'm in complete disagreement.  Sea Hag is one of the least ignorable cards, up there with Chapel and Mountebank

I did have a game once where my lone Sea Hag actually helped my opponent with fodder for Forager +buys.  But in the vast majority of situations where I'm the only Hag user I win pretty easily.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2014, 05:52:47 pm »
+1

Funny when people are so convinced they have a point yet don't.

If you play Village+Nobles and miss out on +1 card compared to HG, that is much less of a loss than if you only have two terminals and only get to play one action that turn.

Insuring against the relatively devastating single-terminal hand -- and having more VP around to boot -- is the more powerful effect.

No one said something like "vastly superior", so you're arguing with a straw man.  We know the two cards are close in power.  They're well designed to compete with gold at $6.

But it is clear that one is better than the other in more situations, and that is why it's ranked higher.  Nobles clearly changes the game more than HG does, and in more useful ways.

Just because you're missing the point doesn't mean there isn't one.  I'll try explaining it again -- the rankings are fuzzy, weighed by reliability vs. impact, and everybody will value these things differently.  Terminal collision is sometimes just a minor annoyance rather than utter devastation, and missing out on that extra +1 card is sometimes huge.

You say that Nobles is ranked better because it's better in more situations.  That's a bad argument. Altar is ranked higher than Nobles on this list, but it is useful in fewer situations than Nobles.  By virtue of its design, Nobles is a very safe, reliable card.  Altar is more niche, but its impact can be huge in he right circumstances.  I find HG to change the game more than Nobles does.  By my own personal weighting of reliability vs. impact, I'd also put Nobles above HG overall.  But I find Nobles to be more ignorable, because many boards have better sources of +action and cheaper/better sources of +cards.

If you're not saying that Nobles is vastly superior, you are certainly making it sound that way.  At the least, you are claiming that it is clearly better and clearly more game-changing, which is absolutely more than should be said for Nobles.  It's not clear, it's fuzzy.  It may be better (I do think it is), but not by a lot. 


As for JoaT vs. Sea Hag, I don't think either is ever ignorable, but that doesn't mean they are bought every time.  Whenever JoaT is on the board you have to make sure your strategy is fast enough to compete with simple double-Jack.  When Sea Hag is available, you need to find a way to deal with it and/or use it yourself.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2014, 05:54:36 pm »
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You can't really ignore Sea Hag. If you don't go for it, you have to counter it. Jack, on the other hand, is entirely ignorable when you're not going for it (EDIT: eHalcyon, by that logic you can't ignore Scout either because you have to make sure your strategy is fast enough to compete with simple double-Scout). Although, you should be going for Jack pretty much always and not going for Sea Hag a lot more than 5% of the time.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 05:56:19 pm by Awaclus »
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2014, 05:57:20 pm »
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You can't really ignore Sea Hag. If you don't go for it, you have to counter it.

that's true, but it comes down to the definition of "ignore". for me, "ignore" in this context is "don't purposefully gain". If my op. goes sea hag, I usually deal with it in some way, but I don't think this mages sea hag a better card. The point is whether or not a card is worth buying.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2014, 07:02:44 pm »
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People are throwing out a lot of made up numbers about how often to gain certain cards. I am definitely in the camp that thinks Jack is more important to get than Sea Hag. But I'll mention that I think there's actually a pretty wide range of acceptable gain % for most cards, where shifting the percentage by like 5-15% (more made up numbers!) doesn't actually make much of a difference in your win/loss outcomes. There's enough competitive strategies on most boards for this to work.

If the card stats ever come back one could take the top 10 players or something and just look at their gain % to check this. I guess you'd want to see if there's any trend between gain % and win % for the players.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 07:04:17 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2014, 07:33:40 pm »
0

"Sea Hag is a powerful card, and one you should almost always open with."

-Theory, 2011

For me "almost always" is 95% of the time.  I don't think it's really changed with the last two expansions. 
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2014, 07:35:24 pm »
+13

"Lookout is the the best 3$ trasher"

-silverspawn, 2012

... and now?
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2014, 07:46:20 pm »
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I do think Lookout is still the best $3 trasher.  It's certainly my favorite one to use.

But stating something is "the best" and stating something is really powerful and should almost always be bought isn't directly comparable.

Some people might like Doctor better than Lookout now but Lookout hasn't really decreased in importance.  If anything it's more important now that ruins are around.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2014, 07:55:04 pm »
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lookout was never the best trasher. masquerade also costs 3$.

but my point was not that the game changed. rather, I don't see why theory's statement here has any more weight than the community ratings.
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Eevee

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2014, 08:10:46 pm »
+1

No offense to him, but year 2011 theory wouldn't be very high on the rankings nowadays. Definitely not top 100.
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Polk5440

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2014, 08:15:36 pm »
+1

No offense to him, but year 2011 theory wouldn't be very high on the rankings nowadays. Definitely not top 100.

Yeah, for one, he wouldn't know how to play with these newfangled cards.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2014, 08:17:15 pm »
+1

You can't really ignore Sea Hag. If you don't go for it, you have to counter it. Jack, on the other hand, is entirely ignorable when you're not going for it (EDIT: eHalcyon, by that logic you can't ignore Scout either because you have to make sure your strategy is fast enough to compete with simple double-Scout). Although, you should be going for Jack pretty much always and not going for Sea Hag a lot more than 5% of the time.

It's not the same.  For me, "ignorable" means that my plan would be little different if that card was suddenly added to (or removed from) a kingdom.  If you add Scout, it'll almost never matter to me.  If you add Jack, now I may have to change my entire game plan.  Double Jack is an extremely simple strategy that moves very quickly and is uniquely tough to slow down because Jack is designed to be an after-the-fact Moat, making it an important baseline to which you should compare your strategy.

On a similar note, this is why I consider Nobles more ignorable than HG.  If you add or remove HG from a kingdom, there's a lot more reevaluation I'd have to do to account for the gain or loss of such effective draw.  OTOH Nobles is a weak and expensive village, or expensive draw, or expensive VP.  The flexibility of it all in one package justifies the cost and still makes it a strong card, but I wouldn't be relying on it to be either my primary village, draw, or alt VP, so adding it or removing it from a kingdom would typically be less impactful on my strategy.
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2014, 08:17:58 pm »
0

Doh, I forgot about Masquerade in only its capacity as a trasher and thought you were making a different point.

--
In quoting theory's Sea Hag article I am not saying his statement is true simply because he said so.

What I am in fact implying is that if someone wants to write a better-reasoned strategy article or forum post about why Sea Hag isn't so great and explain why theory and me and so many others are mistaken, maybe that would be a good idea.

Based on my play experience and what I've read and seen done, the idea that you should only buy Sea Hag anything like 50% of the time is so surprising as to be almost laughable.  If you're going to claim something that dramatic and that far from the common wisdom and common play choices in Dominion... well it's a bold claim. You've got some explaining to do.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2014, 08:19:21 pm »
+4

"Sea Hag is a powerful card, and one you should almost always open with."

-Theory, 2011

For me "almost always" is 95% of the time.  I don't think it's really changed with the last two expansions.

It's pretty easy to look at your last few games and see that you don't gain Sea Hag 95% of the time. It's something like 70% for your last 20 games, for me it was ~50%. The quoted 95% is bad strategy advice, and it's not accurate for your own behavior.

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2014, 08:23:29 pm »
+3

Based on my play experience and what I've read and seen done, the idea that you should only buy Sea Hag anything like 50% of the time is so surprising as to be almost laughable.  If you're going to claim something that dramatic and that far from the common wisdom and common play choices in Dominion... well it's a bold claim. You've got some explaining to do.

It's not a bold claim at all, just look at the last 20 Sea Hag logs from the top 10 players. That's the best way to learn about this.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2014, 08:25:26 pm »
0

(Also, re: $3 trashers... Steward says hello...)
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2014, 08:28:12 pm »
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Based on my play experience and what I've read and seen done, the idea that you should only buy Sea Hag anything like 50% of the time is so surprising as to be almost laughable.  If you're going to claim something that dramatic and that far from the common wisdom and common play choices in Dominion... well it's a bold claim. You've got some explaining to do.

It's not a bold claim at all, just look at the last 20 Sea Hag logs from the top 10 players. That's the best way to learn about this.

well I just wanted to make this with my last 20 games when you PPE'd me. i'm not top 10 though.
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2014, 08:35:05 pm »
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It's pretty easy, is it? I don't recall it being easy to pull numbers on this kind of thing since councilroom went away.

It seemed like 95% to me at a guess, but 70% could be closer to the mathematical truth.

Anyway, very rarely do I feel like I lost a game because I went with Hag when my opponent didn't.  It's almost never happened that I can think of.  Whereas, it does seem to be the case that if my opponent ignores Hag those games become boringly easy wins.

The common wisdom is that Sea Hag is a powerful and very important card.  I might even ignore Mountebank more than I ignore Hag, not sure.  I guess I'll pay some more attention in the future
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Eevee

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2014, 08:38:06 pm »
+1

A general rule of thumb, when one or two (arguable) top players disagree with you, it's usually prudent to take a moment to consider what they are telling you.

(I'm of course referring to Mic and silverspawn here. silverspawn is crazy good these days!)
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2014, 08:50:52 pm »
+3

I am considering it. And pointing out that it conflicts with a lot of prior experience and knowledge is part of that consideration.

I will experiment with buying Sea Hag less often the next ~20 times I see it
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2014, 08:57:37 pm »
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It's not the same.  For me, "ignorable" means that my plan would be little different if that card was suddenly added to (or removed from) a kingdom.  If you add Scout, it'll almost never matter to me.  If you add Jack, now I may have to change my entire game plan.  Double Jack is an extremely simple strategy that moves very quickly and is uniquely tough to slow down because Jack is designed to be an after-the-fact Moat, making it an important baseline to which you should compare your strategy.
True. I kind of thought that since it doesn't directly interact with the opponent, you can just ignore the fact that it's on the board if you're going for something faster than double Jack or anything with a single Jack (and if you're not, then you should just buy the Jack), but that's partially wrong because it still makes you less likely to buy Attacks and more likely to buy Council Rooms, etc.
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