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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards  (Read 17528 times)

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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2014, 03:09:18 pm »
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Depends on the board. If the splitter is, say, Village, I would choose Nobles, but if it's Squire, I would choose Hunting Grounds.
The point of my question was in not knowing the board ahead of time.

There are more village-like cards than there are squire-like cards, and a Village+Nobles engine is much more reliable than a Squires+Hunting Grounds engine (and also more so than a Village+Hunting Grounds engine).    Which is part of why Nobles is a better card than HG.

planing in advance to use nobles for both action and cards is, in ~80% of all cases, a bad idea.
So don't do that.  It's still an overall better card than Hunting Grounds, partly due to the more reliable VP effect and more significantly due to the flexibility it gives your 5 card starting hand.

Nobles may not be a good main village, but if I draw 3 coppers, Wharf, and Nobles I'm a hell of a lot happier than if I drew Wharf and Hunting Grounds (or just Wharf and some second terminal, to be more realistic)

The newbie trap of buying lots of Nobles and little else, which you complain about, is sort of like the newbie trap of buying solely Cities or whatever.  It's not really relevant for our discussion
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 03:14:44 pm by Gherald »
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2014, 03:15:02 pm »
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well I just don't think that's true. Effectively, Nobles is +2 cards and HG is +3 cards. That's 50% better. I'm willing to give up a little bit of reliability in exchange for raw power. and the on-trash, while not relevant that often, is quite good if you can make use of it. it does depend on the payload though, there are probably boards where I go nobles for the 2VP.

I can't remember ever having to choose between them...
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2014, 03:38:33 pm »
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(and also more so than a Village+Hunting Grounds engine).
More reliable, but slower.
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Polk5440

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2014, 07:22:54 pm »
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Where's Prince?

Hiding somewhere in the middle of the pack.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2014, 08:09:44 pm »
+5

I can't remember ever having to choose between them...
You have actually had to choose between them 6 times. You won every time you bought Nobles and lost every time you didn't.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2014, 08:18:12 pm »
+1

Thought experiment:

On turn 5 (or in the particular case of Fairgrounds, whenever you buy your first other pure victory card) you may gain one of the following cards:

Hunting Grounds
Hoard
Fairgrounds
Peddler
Nobles

Which card do you choose?

I choose Nobles.

The point of my question was in not knowing the board ahead of time.

First, Peddler doesn't really belong on this list.  If you gain it for free, it takes away from its cost reduction (which rankers will have factored in during their ranking).  What you have left is a mediocre $4 card going up against $6 cards.

As is often the case in these rankings, the crux of the argument is how you weight specific power vs. general reliability.  If you favour the latter, then Nobles should rank very high because it is so flexible.  It's pretty much always useful, for the VP if nothing else. 

But if you favour high impact even if it's not as commonly useful, then you might rate Fairgrounds (or Hunting Grounds, or Hoard) higher.  They might not be as useful on some random boards, but they could be amazing on a few, heavily influencing the strategy in a way that Nobles never could.

By restricting the question to an unknown kingdom, you push the choice towards the reliable option, which may go against some people's preferred rank weighting.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2014, 08:54:57 pm »
0

I can't remember ever having to choose between them...
You have actually had to choose between them 6 times. You won every time you bought Nobles and lost every time you didn't.

did you really search the logs for that?

well I actually don't think the results are relevant even if you did, but why would you do that?  ???
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2014, 09:05:41 pm »
+2

I can't remember ever having to choose between them...
You have actually had to choose between them 6 times. You won every time you bought Nobles and lost every time you didn't.

did you really search the logs for that?

well I actually don't think the results are relevant even if you did, but why would you do that?  ???
No, I'm stalking all of your games and I have memorized them all, too.

I was bored while a download was about to finish.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2014, 09:11:56 pm »
+1

well, they fulfill similar roles and area very close in power. if I am right and HG is in fact better, choosing it over nobles it will maybe increase the win equity of an otherwise random game by 2%? something like that.

if it's really 6/0 for the "wrong" choice, that's a really impressive coincidence, but nothing more than that.

and get some hobbies. like, play dominion  :P
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2014, 09:17:38 pm »
+3

Nobles's VP is not to be trifled with, though, especially if you have a stack of them, and/or it's the only terminal draw (or competing terminal draw costs $5 and isn't significantly better if the player has more than one copy of the card).
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jaybeez

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2014, 02:12:09 am »
+3

Nobles's VP is not to be trifled with, though, especially if you have a stack of them, and/or it's the only terminal draw (or competing terminal draw costs $5 and isn't significantly better if the player has more than one copy of the card).
I agree with everything you said, but Hunting Grounds' on-trash effect is often not to be trifled with either.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2014, 07:44:58 am »
+1

Nobles's VP is not to be trifled with, though, especially if you have a stack of them, and/or it's the only terminal draw (or competing terminal draw costs $5 and isn't significantly better if the player has more than one copy of the card).
I agree with everything you said, but Hunting Grounds' on-trash effect is often not to be trifled with either.

True, except for the fact that HG on trash happens a lot more rarely than just buying Nobles and having VP from them. Usually HG is part of my engine, and an important part, so trashing them only happens on the last turn if I bought too many $6 HG and can use a TfB on them.
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2014, 01:38:26 pm »
+3

No one disputes that HG's draw is nice or that its VP can somewhat useful at the end of a game with the right companion cards.

But Nobles' reliability counts for way more than some people want to give it credit for.

In the rare case where you have both Nobles and HG on the board, you might pick up one HG.  But you would generally want a lot more of Nobles.

Nobles is a good, important card.  It is a better and more important card that HG, and on the whole does more for you, and you want it in more situations.  That is why it is ranked higher.  And that is how it should be ranked.
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Zappie

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2014, 01:59:06 pm »
0

Nobles may not be a good main village, but if I draw 3 coppers, Wharf, and Nobles I'm a hell of a lot happier than if I drew Wharf and Hunting Grounds (or just Wharf and some second terminal, to be more realistic)

You probably want a gold over nobles in such a hand right?
Consider another thing: if your hand is village, 2 nobles, 2 copper, HG would have given you more reliability on drawing another village, as it draws 50% more cards.
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2014, 02:29:30 pm »
+2

That would depend on how likely I am to draw a useful action, such as another Wharf, and in any case is irrelevant to all the points being made here.

Quote
if your hand is village, 2 nobles, 2 copper, HG would have given you more reliability on drawing another village, as it draws 50% more cards.

Sir, thanks, Sir!

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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2014, 02:39:43 am »
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No one disputes that HG's draw is nice or that its VP can somewhat useful at the end of a game with the right companion cards.

But Nobles' reliability counts for way more than some people want to give it credit for.

In the rare case where you have both Nobles and HG on the board, you might pick up one HG.  But you would generally want a lot more of Nobles.

Nobles is a good, important card.  It is a better and more important card that HG, and on the whole does more for you, and you want it in more situations.  That is why it is ranked higher.  And that is how it should be ranked.

When both Nobles and HG are on the board, you wouldn't generally want a lot more of Nobles.  It is still highly dependent on the board.  If there are cheap Villages, then that could easily make HG better.

Again, whether you personally rank HG or Nobles higher depends on how you weigh reliability vs. potential impact.  You clearly rate reliability very high, but it's certainly valid for others to favour game-changing impact more.  Nobles is not clearly better than HG, and the rankings reflect this.  I would also put Nobles a little higher than HG, but it's not as clear cut as you are making it out to be.
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GeoLib

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2014, 01:28:02 pm »
+3

Nobles may not be a good main village, but if I draw 3 coppers, Wharf, and Nobles I'm a hell of a lot happier than if I drew Wharf and Hunting Grounds (or just Wharf and some second terminal, to be more realistic)

That would depend on how likely I am to draw a useful action, such as another Wharf, and in any case is irrelevant to all the points being made here.

Quote
if your hand is village, 2 nobles, 2 copper, HG would have given you more reliability on drawing another village, as it draws 50% more cards.

Sir, thanks, Sir!



So his hand-picked example of a case where HG was better warrants a sarcastic response, but your hand-picked example of a case where Nobles is better was a totally useful contribution to the discussion?
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2014, 02:05:11 pm »
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We are all aware of the fact that cards like HG and Smithy are nice when you start with a village in hand, and draw more things -- be it another village for a second HG or whatever.

The point that Nobles' weak Necropolis effect can save an otherwise single-terminal hand, and that this reliability effect is really important and a big part of why Nobles is a better card than HG is apparently not obvious enough to many people here.  It's the main reason Nobles is a better and more important card on most boards (the other significant reason is the more dependable VP effect)
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2014, 03:35:58 pm »
+3

We are all aware of the fact that cards like HG and Smithy are nice when you start with a village in hand, and draw more things -- be it another village for a second HG or whatever.

The point that Nobles' weak Necropolis effect can save an otherwise single-terminal hand, and that this reliability effect is really important and a big part of why Nobles is a better card than HG is apparently not obvious enough to many people here.  It's the main reason Nobles is a better and more important card on most boards (the other significant reason is the more dependable VP effect)

We are all aware of the fact that Nobles is nice when you start with a hand with multiple terminals, so you can do more things -- be it drawing cards or attacking or whatever.

The point is that HG's extra card draw can vastly improve an engine that needs strong draw, and that this power is really important and a big part of why HG is a better card than Nobles on a significant number of boards.  Of course, being reasonable people, we also recognize that Nobles is often a good card too.  But neither is vastly superior to the other.
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2014, 03:50:33 pm »
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Funny when people are so convinced they have a point yet don't.

If you play Village+Nobles and miss out on +1 card compared to HG, that is much less of a loss than if you only have two terminals and only get to play one action that turn.

Insuring against the relatively devastating single-terminal hand -- and having more VP around to boot -- is the more powerful effect.

No one said something like "vastly superior", so you're arguing with a straw man.  We know the two cards are close in power.  They're well designed to compete with gold at $6.

But it is clear that one is better than the other in more situations, and that is why it's ranked higher.  Nobles clearly changes the game more than HG does, and in more useful ways.
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liopoil

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2014, 03:53:58 pm »
0

Interesting that #4 and 5 are cards whose purpose is to gain 5-costs. 1-3 are just the super power-cards, so no surprise there. But it is interesting that gaining 5-costs is good enough to be better than the other 6+'s.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2014, 03:57:03 pm »
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Quote
and that is why it's ranked higher.
this is, regardless of the context, a bad argument. sea hag was ranked higher than JoaT. this simple fact is, for me, enough to render most arguments that are based on the community rankings more or less useless (unless the gap between them is huge, and maybe even then.) If a card is ranked higher, there is a good chance that it's better if you don't have any other information. If you do, it's pretty irrelevant.

Quote
Interesting that #4 and 5 are cards whose purpose is to gain 5-costs. 1-3 are just the super power-cards, so no surprise there. But it is interesting that gaining 5-costs is good enough to be better than the other 6+'s.
A lot of games come down to: how do I get 5$'s quickly, and how do I trash. silver/silver is often good to reach 5$'s, even though it doesn't trim your deck at all. altar does both. I'd even put it above Grand Market.
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2014, 04:01:10 pm »
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Yeah in the case of Altar, the gaining of 5's is perhaps equally important as the elimination of junk.  Sometimes it's your only trasher, and it gives you a Duchy or two in the endgame

BV is best thought of not as gaining 5's, but as paying $1 more to gain a $3 village (with some bonus TfB potential)
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2014, 04:04:15 pm »
0

I think Nobles is ranked really high because, a lot of players see it and think "sweet, it makes actions and draws and it makes points". they don't think, "it can either be a card worth 4$, or a card that's so bad, you wouldn't even buy it for 2$". A lot of players don't even think about whether it's worth to go nobles, or just go provinces. They just see, there are nobles, so they buy nobles. If they are gone, they pile out provinces. If everyone voted, not just people on the forum, nobles would be even higher.

This is not backed up with any data, it's just my personal guess/experience.

and yea, border village is boss. BV > Altar >= GM
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2014, 04:07:34 pm »
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Quote
and that is why it's ranked higher.
this is, regardless of the context, a bad argument. sea hag was ranked higher than JoaT. this simple fact is, for me, enough to render most arguments that are based on the community rankings more or less useless
I think you're getting your causality all mixed up here.  Explaining why a card is ranked better is not stating that it's better because of the rankings.  It's just giving you information -- the why.

Sea Hag is a more important card than Jack.  You sometimes ignore Jack, you very rarely ignore Sea Hag.
Quote
If a card is ranked higher, there is a good chance that it's better if you don't have any other information. If you do, it's pretty irrelevant.
It is useful to know that a card is better in more situations.  It's information in and of itself.  Of course you'll want to incorporate it with other information - particularly when looking at a full kingdom and what your opponent opened with.
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