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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards  (Read 17530 times)

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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« on: September 18, 2014, 07:28:28 am »
+19

126 votes on this list

#16 =0 Adventurer (Base) Weighted Average: 4.7% ▲2.7pp / Unweighted Average: 8.0% / Median: 0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 16.9%

Again it was pretty clear, Adventurer is still the worst card in this list although it was voted slightly better. It was voted last 83 times and 5 times above average. It has the fifth lowest deviatio in this list.

By all means Adventurer is no bad card. But all $6+ cards have the problem competing with Gold. And Adventurer is only superior to Gold in decks without Copper and even $5 cards like Harvest or Merchant Ship (can) give you $4 easily. The filter effect is nice and finds still 2 treasure cards if you are already heavily greening what is especially good with Platinum. But the same does Venture (you see the name sililarity?) without spending an action and for one coin less. So, most of the time, Adventurer is just overpriced, but can be nice in a chapelled deck with no better alternatives.
#15 =0 Farmland (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 17.0% ▲2.6pp / Unweighted Average: 17.1% / Median: 13.3% ▲5.6pp / Standard Deviation: 15.3%

Farmland is also slightly better, but still second last as well. It was voted last 14 times and 3 times above average. It has the fourth lowest deviation in this list.

Farmland is definitely no power card, but still should be considered as a good buy in a handful of situations. At first it seems weak as it is more expensive and gives less VP than a Duchy. But the on-buy remodel effect can be very handy. You really have to calculate the benefits. If you have $7, you can remodel a Copper into an Estate, but then it would be better to buy a Duchy for the same VP. For $8 you could buy a Province directly, but if you're behind and there are only few Provinces left, just remodel a Silver into a Duchy for 5VP. For $9 Farmland is like an extra buy, if you remodel a Gold into a Province for 8VP total. In the middle game you even may prefer Farmland over Duchy, because with a Farmland in hand you only need $6 and a Farmland in hand to get a Province. Then Farmland is like a pseudo Harem as the remodel effect is like the +2$ Harem gives you. Especially nice is Farmland in cursing games. For $6 and a Curse in hand, Farmland is worth 4VP. There are even more nice situations like getting 2 victory cards in Silk Road games or trashing a Potion to get a Gold.
#14 ▼1 Expand (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 23.0% ▼11.2pp / Unweighted Average: 27.7% / Median: 20.0% ▼6.7pp / Standard Deviation: 21.8%

Expand was voted significantly worse which means that it lost one rank. It was voted last 3 times, but 17 times above average.

Expand is a mix between Remodel and Mine, but is another card that has the drawback of being expensive. So if you want to trash treasure cards in the late game for victory cards, Remodel manages that too for $3 less. If you want trash treasure cards for better treasure cards, Mine does it even better for $2 less. Its best use is to trash victory cards for better ones or $5 cost actions into Provinces. And expanding Peddlers into Colonies may be its strongest combo.
#13 ▲1 Harem (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 29.1% ▲0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 30.6% / Median: 26.7% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 20.9%

Harem has basically the same average value, but is still one rank better than last year. It was voted last 3 times and 22 times above average. It was even voted first twice!

Like all cards in this list, Harem is by far no bad card, but it's another card that's not really game dominating. Especially in Big Money games where you rarely need more than 2 Golds you can easily pick up Harems in the mid-game if you still fall short for Provinces. This gives you -1VP in comparism to Duchies, but you will see this Harem still 2-3 times to make it worth a buy and give you enough money to win the Provinces split or make the 2VP difference to win this game. Harem is also good in Silk Road games and in combination with Hoard (don't buy Gold, just buy a Hoard and Harems), Mine (mine early Silvers into Harems) and Mints (extra money and VP is nice). In Colony games, Harem is really ignorable because neither Silver nor 2VP are worth a buy.
#12 =0 Forge (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 37.4% ▲3.1pp / Unweighted Average: 39.4% / Median: 33.3% ▲6.6pp / Standard Deviation: 22.5%

Forge is slightly better than before, but still on the same rank. It was voted last twice, but just like Harem voted first twice as well. It has the fourth highest deviation in this list.

Forge is really hard to evaluate because it heavily depends from the cards on the board. Forge is like a much better Chapel because you can quickly trash many cards out of your deck and get an additional benefit, but has 3 big drawbacks. 1.) It's too expensive. If you get to $7 you mostly can't heavily trash anymore because you have too many cards in hand you want to keep. But with cards on the board that can give you $7 early like Baron, Apothecary or Tactician, Forge is really strong. 2.) Forge needs big hand sizes to be really worth it (comparing to other trash-for-benefit cards). Cards like Apothecary or Tactician accomplish this too, but if you have good draw engines, a Forge may also worth a buy to trash a few cards for a late Province. But with discarding attacks Forge is weak. 3.) The term "exactly" and the obligatory gain makes Forge swingy. With a Forge in hand heavy calculating goes on. If you just want to get rid of cards like Coppers or Estates you often have to gain at least a Copper or an Estate or another card you basically don't want. Only if you manage to reach $10 where no card exists you get rid of those. And if you want to forge a Province you often draw the wrong cards (e.g. only treasure cards). Summary: You have to really consider if Forge is a trap or worth a buy, like in Torturer engines where you can simply take all Curses in hand to forge them right away.
#11 ▼1 Bank (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 40.7% ▼3.6pp / Unweighted Average: 42.2% / Median: 40.0% ▼6.7pp / Standard Deviation: 22.6%

Bank is one rank worse than last year. It was voted last twice and 17 times above 70%. It has the third highest deviation in this list.

Bank's value really depends from the board. Bank is dependant from big hand sizes and +Buy. On an average board, especially Big Money games, Bank is mostly worse than Gold. While 3 Golds allow you to buy a Province, 3 Banks don't. So it can really be a trap card. But with a drawer it can be also better than Gold (e.g. 4 Copper + Bank instead of 4 Copper + Gold). And with the addition of +Buy it can get incredibly powerful. Margrave/Wharf Big Money with Bank is great. And in combination with Tactician or Apothecary+Herbalist (or another +Buy) Bank is really powerful. In Colony games Platinum is still stronger in almost every situation, but still Bank is no bad card in Colony games and just depends of above mentioned scenarios.
#10 ▼2 Hunting Grounds (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 49.2% ▼0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 49.3% / Median: 53.3% ▲6.6pp / Standard Deviation: 21.1%

Hunting Grounds has basically the same average value, but still lost 2 ranks. It was voted last twice and first twice. It is the first card of a group of cards that are very close together. It's one rank higher in the unweighted list.

Hunting Grounds is the best drawer of the game without any disadvantage or condition. It's simple, but does well what it should do, drawing a lot of cards. It's solid in Big Money but for $6 it competes directly with Gold and mostly you draw way more than you need for a Province and as you only have one buy, I rather have Wharf for Big Money strategies. But in engines, drawing 4 cards is great and even with weak trashing you can build a pretty decent engine with it. And with good trashing this is even better as you will easily draw your whole deck with it. The on-trash ability is also neat. You mostly want Duchies over Estates, but getting Estates might help to 3-pile faster. In Silk Road or Gardens games where 3 Estates sound very good, Hunting Grounds is mostly just too expensive to be worth it. Getting a late extra Duchy when you try to catch up with your mega engine is pretty cool. Tricks like buying a Farmland to trash a Hunting Grounds for a Province and a Duchy for 11VP total or just use any trash-for-benefit card on it is a great extra.
#9 =0 Hoard (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 50.2% ▲1.7pp / Unweighted Average: 49.5% / Median: 46.7% ▼6.6pp / Standard Deviation: 22.0%

Hoard stays where it was. It was voted last twice and first twice as well. It has the fifth highest deviation in this list and would be one rank higher in the unweighted list.

Hoard is really good if you play it right. If you use it to buy a Victory card every time you have it in hand, just to get a Gold, this is maybe not the right play because then your money average approximates to ~1.5$ what isn't enough for a Province and is even worse in Colony games. But you want to green eventually, right? Then adding Golds while greening is really good. Your deck doesn't clog up too much and you may keep buying Provinces or at least Duchies until the end of the game. So if you pick up a Hoard after your first Gold in Big Money games you can go green pretty early. Hoard is also good if you use the free Gold for trash-for-benefit cards, especially Apprentice. Just trash a Gold with Apprentice, buy a Province with a Hoard in hand to get another Gold and do the same in the next turns over and over. Hoard works also nice with dual-type victory cards especially Harem.
#8 ▲3 Fairgrounds (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 51.8% ▲14.1pp / Unweighted Average: 47.7% / Median: 46.7% ▲13.4pp / Standard Deviation: 27.4%

Fairgrounds made a big jump of 3 ranks and over 14pp. With 7 last ranks and 2 first ranks it has by far the highest deviation in this list and would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list.

Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province and Fairgrounds and you have already 7 different cards. With 3 more cards, every Fairgrounds is already worth more than a Duchy. Especially in cursing and Potion games, this is easy to accomplish. This is still making it a mediocre card. But in games where you have many cantrips and a good source of buy, Fairgrounds can be really strong. Just buy 15 of the 19 different cards and every Fairgrounds is worth 6VP like a Province and this for $2 less. And with Black Market on the board it is even easier to get 15 or even 20 different cards and may be the board determining combo. With Dark Ages Fairgrounds got a huge boost. With Shelters you need 2 unique cards less and in games with Looters you might have to ignore them because the Ruins might only pump your opponents' Fairgrounds. Also, Knights offer a lot of uniques and Spoils or Mercenary from extra piles are also extra uniques you might want.
#7 ▼2 Peddler (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 52.6% ▼6.1pp / Unweighted Average: 52.2% / Median: 53.3% ▼6.7pp / Standard Deviation: 20.8%

Peddler is two ranks and 6pp worse and was voted once each on the first and on the last rank. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list.

Peddler basically doesn't belong in this list, because you almost never spend $8 for a Peddler as its effect is only worth ~$4. So if you spend $6 or $8 for a Peddler, this was mostly a waste. But in games with many +Buys like Grand Markets, Worker's Villages, Market Squares or Pawns and Hamlets, you can easily pick up Peddlers for $0 or $2. Getting many Peddlers in one turn can be a pretty big boost to your econony. Peddlers are also good in combination with duration cards as they count for price reduction in both turns. But it is in this list and it is so high in this list because it really shines in combination with trash-for-benefit cards and then its cost shows to advantage, e.g. - like above mentioned - expanding it into a Colony. As it is the only card for $8, its also worth mentioning how it works with Swindler. As long as there are still Peddlers left, there is the danger that it get swindled. But when the Peddlers are gone, you have a great defense against Swindler. Another quick note: Beware of three-piling in Peddler games with +Buy.
#6 ▲1 Nobles (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 53.9% ▲3.7pp / Unweighted Average: 53.7% / Median: 53.3% ▲6.6pp / Standard Deviation: 19.6%

Nobles is one rank better, but still has one vote on the last rank. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted list.

Nobles is often a trap card. Yes, Nobles is a self working combo when you use it for +2 Actions and +3 Cards alternating. But 2 Nobles still give you only a +1 Card Bonus what one Laboratory gives you too. So a Big Money player is going to outrace a "Nobles-Engine" player, it's just to slow. But still there are many occassions where Nobles are nice. As long as you don't use Nobles as your main village an engine player can incorporate Nobles as a good drawer while picking up some points and not fall so far behind to a Big Money Player. Yeah, getting points while still building your engine can be huge for an engine player as he may need 1-2 Provinces less to catch up in the end. And if there are other cards that let you get Nobles faster, like Quarry it makes them even stronger. However, in Colony games the 2VP from Nobles are often ignorable or at least less important.
#5 ▲1 Altar (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 54.8% ▲0.3pp / Unweighted Average: 51.2% / Median: 53.3% ▼6.7pp /  Standard Deviation: 24.1%

Altar is one rank better, but its average value is basically the same. With 3 last ranks and one first rank it has the second highest deviation in this list. It would be 2 ranks lower in the unweighted list.

$5 cards are key cards in Dominion. And the ability to trash cards independent from cost and turn them into key $5 cards is really big, especially for any sort of engine. An early $6 on an engine board with Altar is really strong. Also, you have the ability to use it later in the game to gain Duchies, something you shouldn't underestimate. It also comboes well with cost reduction like Highway (which you can get from Altar) to even gain Provinces with it. Of course it highly depends on the board. If there are no good expensive cards to get in masses, then Altar isn't that interesting, but you might get one only for the Duchy gain ability which is also less useful in Colony games of course.
#4 =0 Border Village (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 69.8% ▲1.9pp / Unweighted Average: 68.8% / Median: 73.3% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 20.5%

We're making a big jump of 15pp and Border Village is still on #4 while having a slightly better average value. It was voted twice last and 5 times first. It was voted 19 times below average.

For every good engine Border Village is excellent. Especially if you have $6 and there are strong terminal $5 cards on the board and you want the $5 card anyway, you get a Village for free. Do this a few times and you basically are guaranteed to have a Village in each hand. The uses are similar to when you want many Fishing Villages. Border Village + Torturer is maybe one of the strongest combos. Still this is in strong competition with Gold. It's really a trap in cases where you want a money based strategy. Especially with the first $6 you often rather buy a Gold than a Border Village in most cases. Border Village is also very good on boards with trash-for-benefit cards because for every $6 you have you can buy a Border Village and the trash-for-benefit card. Later you can trash the Border Village for 4VP with Bishop, 6 cards with Apprentice, 6$ with Salvager or remodel it into a Province, etc. Border Village + Graverobber is also a great combo because you never run out of fodder for Graverobbers.
#3 =0 Grand Market (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 81.6% ▼3.1pp / Unweighted Average: 80.4% / Median: 86.7% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.0%

Now another big jump of nearly 12pp. Grand Market is still #3 and was only voted twice below average and four times on the first rank. It has the third lowest deviation in this list.

Grand Market is basically a $8-$9 card and is the dominating card on many boards. Often it's basically a race to get the first Grand Market faster. And with the first Grand Market you can easily buy more of them. You achieve that at best with Vault or any other Source of virtual coins like Baron or Horse Traders and of course with Gold. Grand Markets are very powerful, but still there are situations where it's just too slow to pick them up because of its restriction and is really a trap card. Other strategies are just quicker. They are great in nearly all decks, but Grand Markets really shine in thin decks where you can chain them. Then they are even better than Platinum! The same applies in combination with King's Court. But in Colony games with heavy cursing or other thick decks, Platinum is still the stronger card.
#2 =0 Goons (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 91.7% ▼1.9pp / Unweighted Average: 90.7% / Median: 93.3% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 11.9%

Another jump of ~10pp and we're now in the Top 2. Goons is second again with only 2 votes below average and 7 votes below 70%. It was voted first 35 times and is the card with the lowest deviation in this list.

Goons is a strong and board dominating card nearly every time. Yes, it gets quadratically (n^2+n) better the more Goons you can play per turn, so it gets big profit from good drawing engines, but is still great if played alone because of the discarding attack. It's also the only attack card that is so strong that it needs to cost more than $5. So you have a Militia that nets you VP for cards you would have bought either way, great! In the later game you can pick additional VP for Coppers (and with a Watchtower in hand you can even immediately trash them). And if you have those needed actions and set up a really nice engine with Goons and manage to play 3 or more Goons per turn, it is so insane powerful: You can achieve easily 100 or more points. Also a Goons engine has more time for setup as you don't necessarily need to buy Provinces/Colonies. For clarification: King's Court + Goons doesn't triple the VP gaining effect, but you still get the extra money and buys you can use for more VP, so it isn't a so bad combo after all (especially if you have another King's Court and a Masquerade in hand ;) )
#1 =0 King's Court (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 93.2% ▼4.3pp / Unweighted Average: 92.1% / Median: 100% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 13.4%

King's Court is still the strongest card in this list even though it lost over 4pp. It has the second lowest deviation in this list with no vote below 40% and 11 votes below 70%. It was voted first 68 times.

Just like Goons and Grand Market, when King's Court is on the board, there's nearly every time a race who gets it first with cards like Tactician, Baron or Apothecary. Throne Room does nothing for itself and just doubles the action, but still is often skippable - tripling an action seems like no big difference, but it is a huge boost. If you triple a Curser the game is basically over; if you triple a card drawer like Wharf it's really crazy; and with Possession or Saboteur it could get really mad. With King's Court you also need no Village, just triple a Cantrip for a huge benefit, especially if it's Scheme. And with King's Courting a King's Court it gets even crazier... Maybe only on Province boards that are already very quick without King's Court or have only terminal non-curse-givers you may skip it. PS: For everyone who has the same problems as I, calculating the actions you may play three times: For every King's Court you play on a King's Court you can play 2 more actions three times - or if you prefer a formula: 2n-1

KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 08:43:20 am »
0

Any surprises here? Not for me.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 08:58:20 am »
0

well harem is too low. but that's not a surprise.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 10:16:09 am »
0

Harem and hoard are too high, forge is too low.  Other than that, it's solid I think.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 12:14:49 pm »
+4

Every time this list gets posted, a consensus emerges that Goons should be above KC. Will that also be the case this time?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 12:23:06 pm »
+6

By all means Adventurer is no bad card.

You're writing this stuff like you're grading a karaoke contest of a bunch of 10 year olds and have to say something nice about the one kid who put in an absolutely dreadful performance. When it comes to cards you're allowed to say they are are god-awful lol, it's not like they're going to cry, bite or send their dad after you with a sledgehammer to pulp your skull.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 12:23:36 pm »
+3

Every time this list gets posted, a consensus emerges that Goons should be above KC. Will that also be the case this time?

No.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 12:59:15 pm »
+1

I think the bottom part is pretty much unchanged for the last 2 years? but yea, if a 6$ is probably not great at 4$, it's questionable to say that it's not a bad card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2014, 02:08:22 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure KC should be #1. Goons is great, but KC is just almost always good. It makes a dead board into an engine board, turns mediocre cards into engine parts and nothing, just nothing, beats KC-KC.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2014, 03:56:34 pm »
0

I think Hunting Grounds should be higher, probably directly below Nobles. Drawing 4 cards instead of 3 is great in engines (you need less HGs than Smithies, and therefore also less +actions), and the on-trash ability is underutilized IMO.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 04:17:35 pm »
+3

I think most people just overrate Nobles. It's worse than Hunting Grounds in my book.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2014, 04:27:39 pm »
0

Nobles seems too high for me, and Forge too low. Fairgrounds is probably still a little low, mostly because it's behind Nobles (Peddler is very hard to rate so whatever).
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 04:29:31 pm by Teproc »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2014, 05:36:00 pm »
0

Thanks for publishing Qvist!!  Good to see this list finally emerge.

Interesting to see the difference in opinions on Harem, Nobles, and Hunting Ground.

I didn't rate Altar quite that high, so I'll have to consider whether it is another lesson to be learned.  I like the card, but often find it to be very slow.  Sure it's nice to trash and get something of value, but by the time I can afford $6, there are often competing cards, and frequently there are cheaper trashers in the kingdom which will start trashing much sooner.

I'm inclined to think Harem is a little underrated.  Maybe it doesn't do anything for big engines, but it sure has helped my economy a few times while banking a couple extra VP's that are sometimes the deciding factor.  I had it above Forge...will have to think about it.  Forge can be very cool, but it is just so expensive, and hard to line up exactly the cards you want to trash in the same hand.

It looks like I also value Nobles more than some.  They definitely are a little slow because of the cost, but I just remember too many games which lacked villages, and Nobles enabled an engine that would not have existed otherwise.  And if the game is not too fast, 4 or 5 Nobles can often be critical engine components in their own right.  To me they are in about the right place.

I'll have to think about Hunting Grounds (seems a little low)...but then even though I like the +4 cards, I don't frequently buy the card, so perhaps the cost itself is a detrimental factor in the rating.  I'd rather have a cheaper Smithy on the board.

P.S.  I had put Goons at #1 because it has just been so dominating in many of my games, while KC occasionally stutters without sufficient density of action cards.  But having watched a few videos (particularly SheCantSayNo's teaching Jerni - thank you!!) I have changed my mind.  The ability to create Village like +actions out of cantrips to make an engine run is something I had not fully appreciated.  Always good to learn ; )
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2014, 05:50:44 pm »
0

The funny thing about this list is how accurate it is.  Zero surprises.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2014, 07:06:06 pm »
0

I just remember too many games which lacked villages, and Nobles enabled an engine that would not have existed otherwise.
You need extremely good payload for that to be worth it, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2014, 07:26:59 pm »
0

"How many different good things can I do with this card in most kingdoms, and what is the total average value of those Good Things?"

If you ask that, you basically end up with this list as-is.

The variance from year to year is pretty explainable.  For instance people have realized that Fairgrounds is stronger with Dark Ages and to a lesser extent Guilds is out.  Partly because of all the stuff in Dark Ages, partly because of the buy smoothing of Guilds, and partly because Prosperity cards are less represented meaning Colony-free Province games are more common.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2014, 07:39:04 pm »
0

well, I don't think that's what you should ask yourself. The total amount of good things is extremely high for, KC, Procession, Quarry. It's not that high for masquerade

the better questions are, I think, how often do I buy this card, how important is it when I buy it.

Harem is underrated by a lot of players, it's not actually that much worse than Nobles.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2014, 07:49:01 pm »
0

The total amount of good things
This obscures my point.  I said different good things and total average value.  To take your Masquerade example, the amount of value it adds at its price point is huge. (Better than anything except Ambassador last I checked.)

Nobles is a nice flexible card, better than Hunting Grounds in most boards in which you could only have one or the other.

Harem is only good when there's nothing else to do.  I'd arguably nudge it below Expand because I prefer the control Expand offers.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2014, 04:25:33 am »
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If GM's real value is 8$ or 9$, then what does that make Goons? Indeed I think Goons would be better priced at e.g. 7$ and still be a powerful card.

What I like about Dominion is it's diversity and situational use of the cards. I've seen boards where every card on the list, no matter how low ranked, turns incredibly useful (Adventurer much rarer than others, though), and I've seen boards where KC or GM are useless and/or trap cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2014, 06:08:48 am »
0

i'd bump nobles down a few slots, and forge up a few. It's true that Nobles are nifty when they're useful, and that it's pretty rare that I wouldn't want a free nobles in my deck, but at the same time it's comparatively rare that the presence of nobles changes any decision about overall strategy. For Forge it's the opposite; sometimes it can be a mega-trap, but often Forge is the key component on the board that makes you want to go engine. The late-game control you get when you have a Forge and your opponent doesn't should also not be underestimated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2014, 07:08:00 am »
0

Thought experiment:

On turn 5 (or in the particular case of Fairgrounds, whenever you buy your first other pure victory card) you may gain one of the following cards:

Hunting Grounds
Hoard
Fairgrounds
Peddler
Nobles

Which card do you choose?

I choose Nobles.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2014, 07:20:57 am »
0

planing in advance to use nobles for both action and cards is, in ~80% of all cases, a bad idea. sometimes I wonder if the card would be stronger for the average player if it just read "+3 cards, 2VP", that would stop them from trying to build a terrible nobles/nobles engine. so, I think it's more likely that I pick up Hunting Grounds for $6. I'm not picking Peddler, because Peddler is worth ~4. and Fairgrounds is just good in completely different situations.

If I have already picked up a smithy, and there is no real village, I'd rather pick Nobles instead of Hunting Grounds. But in that case, I'd probably just buy a gold.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2014, 07:23:28 am »
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Thought experiment:

On turn 5 (or in the particular case of Fairgrounds, whenever you buy your first other pure victory card) you may gain one of the following cards:

Hunting Grounds
Hoard
Fairgrounds
Peddler
Nobles

Which card do you choose?

I choose Nobles.
Depends on the board. If the splitter is, say, Village, I would choose Nobles, but if it's Squire, I would choose Hunting Grounds.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2014, 08:34:06 am »
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Where's Prince?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2014, 08:41:48 am »
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Where's Prince?
this list is based on community votes which were submitted months ago.

prince didn't exist back then.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2014, 03:09:18 pm »
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Depends on the board. If the splitter is, say, Village, I would choose Nobles, but if it's Squire, I would choose Hunting Grounds.
The point of my question was in not knowing the board ahead of time.

There are more village-like cards than there are squire-like cards, and a Village+Nobles engine is much more reliable than a Squires+Hunting Grounds engine (and also more so than a Village+Hunting Grounds engine).    Which is part of why Nobles is a better card than HG.

planing in advance to use nobles for both action and cards is, in ~80% of all cases, a bad idea.
So don't do that.  It's still an overall better card than Hunting Grounds, partly due to the more reliable VP effect and more significantly due to the flexibility it gives your 5 card starting hand.

Nobles may not be a good main village, but if I draw 3 coppers, Wharf, and Nobles I'm a hell of a lot happier than if I drew Wharf and Hunting Grounds (or just Wharf and some second terminal, to be more realistic)

The newbie trap of buying lots of Nobles and little else, which you complain about, is sort of like the newbie trap of buying solely Cities or whatever.  It's not really relevant for our discussion
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 03:14:44 pm by Gherald »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2014, 03:15:02 pm »
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well I just don't think that's true. Effectively, Nobles is +2 cards and HG is +3 cards. That's 50% better. I'm willing to give up a little bit of reliability in exchange for raw power. and the on-trash, while not relevant that often, is quite good if you can make use of it. it does depend on the payload though, there are probably boards where I go nobles for the 2VP.

I can't remember ever having to choose between them...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2014, 03:38:33 pm »
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(and also more so than a Village+Hunting Grounds engine).
More reliable, but slower.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2014, 07:22:54 pm »
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Where's Prince?

Hiding somewhere in the middle of the pack.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2014, 08:09:44 pm »
+5

I can't remember ever having to choose between them...
You have actually had to choose between them 6 times. You won every time you bought Nobles and lost every time you didn't.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2014, 08:18:12 pm »
+1

Thought experiment:

On turn 5 (or in the particular case of Fairgrounds, whenever you buy your first other pure victory card) you may gain one of the following cards:

Hunting Grounds
Hoard
Fairgrounds
Peddler
Nobles

Which card do you choose?

I choose Nobles.

The point of my question was in not knowing the board ahead of time.

First, Peddler doesn't really belong on this list.  If you gain it for free, it takes away from its cost reduction (which rankers will have factored in during their ranking).  What you have left is a mediocre $4 card going up against $6 cards.

As is often the case in these rankings, the crux of the argument is how you weight specific power vs. general reliability.  If you favour the latter, then Nobles should rank very high because it is so flexible.  It's pretty much always useful, for the VP if nothing else. 

But if you favour high impact even if it's not as commonly useful, then you might rate Fairgrounds (or Hunting Grounds, or Hoard) higher.  They might not be as useful on some random boards, but they could be amazing on a few, heavily influencing the strategy in a way that Nobles never could.

By restricting the question to an unknown kingdom, you push the choice towards the reliable option, which may go against some people's preferred rank weighting.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2014, 08:54:57 pm »
0

I can't remember ever having to choose between them...
You have actually had to choose between them 6 times. You won every time you bought Nobles and lost every time you didn't.

did you really search the logs for that?

well I actually don't think the results are relevant even if you did, but why would you do that?  ???
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2014, 09:05:41 pm »
+2

I can't remember ever having to choose between them...
You have actually had to choose between them 6 times. You won every time you bought Nobles and lost every time you didn't.

did you really search the logs for that?

well I actually don't think the results are relevant even if you did, but why would you do that?  ???
No, I'm stalking all of your games and I have memorized them all, too.

I was bored while a download was about to finish.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2014, 09:11:56 pm »
+1

well, they fulfill similar roles and area very close in power. if I am right and HG is in fact better, choosing it over nobles it will maybe increase the win equity of an otherwise random game by 2%? something like that.

if it's really 6/0 for the "wrong" choice, that's a really impressive coincidence, but nothing more than that.

and get some hobbies. like, play dominion  :P
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2014, 09:17:38 pm »
+3

Nobles's VP is not to be trifled with, though, especially if you have a stack of them, and/or it's the only terminal draw (or competing terminal draw costs $5 and isn't significantly better if the player has more than one copy of the card).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2014, 02:12:09 am »
+3

Nobles's VP is not to be trifled with, though, especially if you have a stack of them, and/or it's the only terminal draw (or competing terminal draw costs $5 and isn't significantly better if the player has more than one copy of the card).
I agree with everything you said, but Hunting Grounds' on-trash effect is often not to be trifled with either.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2014, 07:44:58 am »
+1

Nobles's VP is not to be trifled with, though, especially if you have a stack of them, and/or it's the only terminal draw (or competing terminal draw costs $5 and isn't significantly better if the player has more than one copy of the card).
I agree with everything you said, but Hunting Grounds' on-trash effect is often not to be trifled with either.

True, except for the fact that HG on trash happens a lot more rarely than just buying Nobles and having VP from them. Usually HG is part of my engine, and an important part, so trashing them only happens on the last turn if I bought too many $6 HG and can use a TfB on them.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2014, 01:38:26 pm »
+3

No one disputes that HG's draw is nice or that its VP can somewhat useful at the end of a game with the right companion cards.

But Nobles' reliability counts for way more than some people want to give it credit for.

In the rare case where you have both Nobles and HG on the board, you might pick up one HG.  But you would generally want a lot more of Nobles.

Nobles is a good, important card.  It is a better and more important card that HG, and on the whole does more for you, and you want it in more situations.  That is why it is ranked higher.  And that is how it should be ranked.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2014, 01:59:06 pm »
0

Nobles may not be a good main village, but if I draw 3 coppers, Wharf, and Nobles I'm a hell of a lot happier than if I drew Wharf and Hunting Grounds (or just Wharf and some second terminal, to be more realistic)

You probably want a gold over nobles in such a hand right?
Consider another thing: if your hand is village, 2 nobles, 2 copper, HG would have given you more reliability on drawing another village, as it draws 50% more cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2014, 02:29:30 pm »
+2

That would depend on how likely I am to draw a useful action, such as another Wharf, and in any case is irrelevant to all the points being made here.

Quote
if your hand is village, 2 nobles, 2 copper, HG would have given you more reliability on drawing another village, as it draws 50% more cards.

Sir, thanks, Sir!

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2014, 02:39:43 am »
0

No one disputes that HG's draw is nice or that its VP can somewhat useful at the end of a game with the right companion cards.

But Nobles' reliability counts for way more than some people want to give it credit for.

In the rare case where you have both Nobles and HG on the board, you might pick up one HG.  But you would generally want a lot more of Nobles.

Nobles is a good, important card.  It is a better and more important card that HG, and on the whole does more for you, and you want it in more situations.  That is why it is ranked higher.  And that is how it should be ranked.

When both Nobles and HG are on the board, you wouldn't generally want a lot more of Nobles.  It is still highly dependent on the board.  If there are cheap Villages, then that could easily make HG better.

Again, whether you personally rank HG or Nobles higher depends on how you weigh reliability vs. potential impact.  You clearly rate reliability very high, but it's certainly valid for others to favour game-changing impact more.  Nobles is not clearly better than HG, and the rankings reflect this.  I would also put Nobles a little higher than HG, but it's not as clear cut as you are making it out to be.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2014, 01:28:02 pm »
+3

Nobles may not be a good main village, but if I draw 3 coppers, Wharf, and Nobles I'm a hell of a lot happier than if I drew Wharf and Hunting Grounds (or just Wharf and some second terminal, to be more realistic)

That would depend on how likely I am to draw a useful action, such as another Wharf, and in any case is irrelevant to all the points being made here.

Quote
if your hand is village, 2 nobles, 2 copper, HG would have given you more reliability on drawing another village, as it draws 50% more cards.

Sir, thanks, Sir!



So his hand-picked example of a case where HG was better warrants a sarcastic response, but your hand-picked example of a case where Nobles is better was a totally useful contribution to the discussion?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2014, 02:05:11 pm »
0

We are all aware of the fact that cards like HG and Smithy are nice when you start with a village in hand, and draw more things -- be it another village for a second HG or whatever.

The point that Nobles' weak Necropolis effect can save an otherwise single-terminal hand, and that this reliability effect is really important and a big part of why Nobles is a better card than HG is apparently not obvious enough to many people here.  It's the main reason Nobles is a better and more important card on most boards (the other significant reason is the more dependable VP effect)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2014, 03:35:58 pm »
+3

We are all aware of the fact that cards like HG and Smithy are nice when you start with a village in hand, and draw more things -- be it another village for a second HG or whatever.

The point that Nobles' weak Necropolis effect can save an otherwise single-terminal hand, and that this reliability effect is really important and a big part of why Nobles is a better card than HG is apparently not obvious enough to many people here.  It's the main reason Nobles is a better and more important card on most boards (the other significant reason is the more dependable VP effect)

We are all aware of the fact that Nobles is nice when you start with a hand with multiple terminals, so you can do more things -- be it drawing cards or attacking or whatever.

The point is that HG's extra card draw can vastly improve an engine that needs strong draw, and that this power is really important and a big part of why HG is a better card than Nobles on a significant number of boards.  Of course, being reasonable people, we also recognize that Nobles is often a good card too.  But neither is vastly superior to the other.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2014, 03:50:33 pm »
0

Funny when people are so convinced they have a point yet don't.

If you play Village+Nobles and miss out on +1 card compared to HG, that is much less of a loss than if you only have two terminals and only get to play one action that turn.

Insuring against the relatively devastating single-terminal hand -- and having more VP around to boot -- is the more powerful effect.

No one said something like "vastly superior", so you're arguing with a straw man.  We know the two cards are close in power.  They're well designed to compete with gold at $6.

But it is clear that one is better than the other in more situations, and that is why it's ranked higher.  Nobles clearly changes the game more than HG does, and in more useful ways.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2014, 03:53:58 pm »
0

Interesting that #4 and 5 are cards whose purpose is to gain 5-costs. 1-3 are just the super power-cards, so no surprise there. But it is interesting that gaining 5-costs is good enough to be better than the other 6+'s.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2014, 03:57:03 pm »
0

Quote
and that is why it's ranked higher.
this is, regardless of the context, a bad argument. sea hag was ranked higher than JoaT. this simple fact is, for me, enough to render most arguments that are based on the community rankings more or less useless (unless the gap between them is huge, and maybe even then.) If a card is ranked higher, there is a good chance that it's better if you don't have any other information. If you do, it's pretty irrelevant.

Quote
Interesting that #4 and 5 are cards whose purpose is to gain 5-costs. 1-3 are just the super power-cards, so no surprise there. But it is interesting that gaining 5-costs is good enough to be better than the other 6+'s.
A lot of games come down to: how do I get 5$'s quickly, and how do I trash. silver/silver is often good to reach 5$'s, even though it doesn't trim your deck at all. altar does both. I'd even put it above Grand Market.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2014, 04:01:10 pm »
0

Yeah in the case of Altar, the gaining of 5's is perhaps equally important as the elimination of junk.  Sometimes it's your only trasher, and it gives you a Duchy or two in the endgame

BV is best thought of not as gaining 5's, but as paying $1 more to gain a $3 village (with some bonus TfB potential)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2014, 04:04:15 pm »
0

I think Nobles is ranked really high because, a lot of players see it and think "sweet, it makes actions and draws and it makes points". they don't think, "it can either be a card worth 4$, or a card that's so bad, you wouldn't even buy it for 2$". A lot of players don't even think about whether it's worth to go nobles, or just go provinces. They just see, there are nobles, so they buy nobles. If they are gone, they pile out provinces. If everyone voted, not just people on the forum, nobles would be even higher.

This is not backed up with any data, it's just my personal guess/experience.

and yea, border village is boss. BV > Altar >= GM
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2014, 04:07:34 pm »
0

Quote
and that is why it's ranked higher.
this is, regardless of the context, a bad argument. sea hag was ranked higher than JoaT. this simple fact is, for me, enough to render most arguments that are based on the community rankings more or less useless
I think you're getting your causality all mixed up here.  Explaining why a card is ranked better is not stating that it's better because of the rankings.  It's just giving you information -- the why.

Sea Hag is a more important card than Jack.  You sometimes ignore Jack, you very rarely ignore Sea Hag.
Quote
If a card is ranked higher, there is a good chance that it's better if you don't have any other information. If you do, it's pretty irrelevant.
It is useful to know that a card is better in more situations.  It's information in and of itself.  Of course you'll want to incorporate it with other information - particularly when looking at a full kingdom and what your opponent opened with.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2014, 04:14:03 pm »
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It's just giving you information -- the why.
fair point.

however, if you ignore jack more often than sea hag, you're doing something wrong.
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2014, 04:28:34 pm »
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I don't think so?  I probably buy Sea Hag 95% of the time and Jack 85% of the time, something like that
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2014, 04:31:18 pm »
+1

You should ignore sea hag a lot more than 5% of the time. All it takes is some strong trashing. Even without strong trashing you can often ignore it.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2014, 04:33:52 pm »
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I think I ignore hag about 50% of all time. maybe a little bit less
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2014, 04:38:00 pm »
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Hmm, well I can't really comment other than to say I'm in complete disagreement.  Sea Hag is one of the least ignorable cards, up there with Chapel and Mountebank

I did have a game once where my lone Sea Hag actually helped my opponent with fodder for Forager +buys.  But in the vast majority of situations where I'm the only Hag user I win pretty easily.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2014, 05:52:47 pm »
+1

Funny when people are so convinced they have a point yet don't.

If you play Village+Nobles and miss out on +1 card compared to HG, that is much less of a loss than if you only have two terminals and only get to play one action that turn.

Insuring against the relatively devastating single-terminal hand -- and having more VP around to boot -- is the more powerful effect.

No one said something like "vastly superior", so you're arguing with a straw man.  We know the two cards are close in power.  They're well designed to compete with gold at $6.

But it is clear that one is better than the other in more situations, and that is why it's ranked higher.  Nobles clearly changes the game more than HG does, and in more useful ways.

Just because you're missing the point doesn't mean there isn't one.  I'll try explaining it again -- the rankings are fuzzy, weighed by reliability vs. impact, and everybody will value these things differently.  Terminal collision is sometimes just a minor annoyance rather than utter devastation, and missing out on that extra +1 card is sometimes huge.

You say that Nobles is ranked better because it's better in more situations.  That's a bad argument. Altar is ranked higher than Nobles on this list, but it is useful in fewer situations than Nobles.  By virtue of its design, Nobles is a very safe, reliable card.  Altar is more niche, but its impact can be huge in he right circumstances.  I find HG to change the game more than Nobles does.  By my own personal weighting of reliability vs. impact, I'd also put Nobles above HG overall.  But I find Nobles to be more ignorable, because many boards have better sources of +action and cheaper/better sources of +cards.

If you're not saying that Nobles is vastly superior, you are certainly making it sound that way.  At the least, you are claiming that it is clearly better and clearly more game-changing, which is absolutely more than should be said for Nobles.  It's not clear, it's fuzzy.  It may be better (I do think it is), but not by a lot. 


As for JoaT vs. Sea Hag, I don't think either is ever ignorable, but that doesn't mean they are bought every time.  Whenever JoaT is on the board you have to make sure your strategy is fast enough to compete with simple double-Jack.  When Sea Hag is available, you need to find a way to deal with it and/or use it yourself.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2014, 05:54:36 pm »
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You can't really ignore Sea Hag. If you don't go for it, you have to counter it. Jack, on the other hand, is entirely ignorable when you're not going for it (EDIT: eHalcyon, by that logic you can't ignore Scout either because you have to make sure your strategy is fast enough to compete with simple double-Scout). Although, you should be going for Jack pretty much always and not going for Sea Hag a lot more than 5% of the time.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 05:56:19 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2014, 05:57:20 pm »
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You can't really ignore Sea Hag. If you don't go for it, you have to counter it.

that's true, but it comes down to the definition of "ignore". for me, "ignore" in this context is "don't purposefully gain". If my op. goes sea hag, I usually deal with it in some way, but I don't think this mages sea hag a better card. The point is whether or not a card is worth buying.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2014, 07:02:44 pm »
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People are throwing out a lot of made up numbers about how often to gain certain cards. I am definitely in the camp that thinks Jack is more important to get than Sea Hag. But I'll mention that I think there's actually a pretty wide range of acceptable gain % for most cards, where shifting the percentage by like 5-15% (more made up numbers!) doesn't actually make much of a difference in your win/loss outcomes. There's enough competitive strategies on most boards for this to work.

If the card stats ever come back one could take the top 10 players or something and just look at their gain % to check this. I guess you'd want to see if there's any trend between gain % and win % for the players.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 07:04:17 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2014, 07:33:40 pm »
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"Sea Hag is a powerful card, and one you should almost always open with."

-Theory, 2011

For me "almost always" is 95% of the time.  I don't think it's really changed with the last two expansions. 
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2014, 07:35:24 pm »
+13

"Lookout is the the best 3$ trasher"

-silverspawn, 2012

... and now?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2014, 07:46:20 pm »
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I do think Lookout is still the best $3 trasher.  It's certainly my favorite one to use.

But stating something is "the best" and stating something is really powerful and should almost always be bought isn't directly comparable.

Some people might like Doctor better than Lookout now but Lookout hasn't really decreased in importance.  If anything it's more important now that ruins are around.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2014, 07:55:04 pm »
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lookout was never the best trasher. masquerade also costs 3$.

but my point was not that the game changed. rather, I don't see why theory's statement here has any more weight than the community ratings.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2014, 08:10:46 pm »
+1

No offense to him, but year 2011 theory wouldn't be very high on the rankings nowadays. Definitely not top 100.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2014, 08:15:36 pm »
+1

No offense to him, but year 2011 theory wouldn't be very high on the rankings nowadays. Definitely not top 100.

Yeah, for one, he wouldn't know how to play with these newfangled cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2014, 08:17:15 pm »
+1

You can't really ignore Sea Hag. If you don't go for it, you have to counter it. Jack, on the other hand, is entirely ignorable when you're not going for it (EDIT: eHalcyon, by that logic you can't ignore Scout either because you have to make sure your strategy is fast enough to compete with simple double-Scout). Although, you should be going for Jack pretty much always and not going for Sea Hag a lot more than 5% of the time.

It's not the same.  For me, "ignorable" means that my plan would be little different if that card was suddenly added to (or removed from) a kingdom.  If you add Scout, it'll almost never matter to me.  If you add Jack, now I may have to change my entire game plan.  Double Jack is an extremely simple strategy that moves very quickly and is uniquely tough to slow down because Jack is designed to be an after-the-fact Moat, making it an important baseline to which you should compare your strategy.

On a similar note, this is why I consider Nobles more ignorable than HG.  If you add or remove HG from a kingdom, there's a lot more reevaluation I'd have to do to account for the gain or loss of such effective draw.  OTOH Nobles is a weak and expensive village, or expensive draw, or expensive VP.  The flexibility of it all in one package justifies the cost and still makes it a strong card, but I wouldn't be relying on it to be either my primary village, draw, or alt VP, so adding it or removing it from a kingdom would typically be less impactful on my strategy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2014, 08:17:58 pm »
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Doh, I forgot about Masquerade in only its capacity as a trasher and thought you were making a different point.

--
In quoting theory's Sea Hag article I am not saying his statement is true simply because he said so.

What I am in fact implying is that if someone wants to write a better-reasoned strategy article or forum post about why Sea Hag isn't so great and explain why theory and me and so many others are mistaken, maybe that would be a good idea.

Based on my play experience and what I've read and seen done, the idea that you should only buy Sea Hag anything like 50% of the time is so surprising as to be almost laughable.  If you're going to claim something that dramatic and that far from the common wisdom and common play choices in Dominion... well it's a bold claim. You've got some explaining to do.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2014, 08:19:21 pm »
+4

"Sea Hag is a powerful card, and one you should almost always open with."

-Theory, 2011

For me "almost always" is 95% of the time.  I don't think it's really changed with the last two expansions.

It's pretty easy to look at your last few games and see that you don't gain Sea Hag 95% of the time. It's something like 70% for your last 20 games, for me it was ~50%. The quoted 95% is bad strategy advice, and it's not accurate for your own behavior.

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2014, 08:23:29 pm »
+3

Based on my play experience and what I've read and seen done, the idea that you should only buy Sea Hag anything like 50% of the time is so surprising as to be almost laughable.  If you're going to claim something that dramatic and that far from the common wisdom and common play choices in Dominion... well it's a bold claim. You've got some explaining to do.

It's not a bold claim at all, just look at the last 20 Sea Hag logs from the top 10 players. That's the best way to learn about this.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2014, 08:25:26 pm »
0

(Also, re: $3 trashers... Steward says hello...)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2014, 08:28:12 pm »
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Based on my play experience and what I've read and seen done, the idea that you should only buy Sea Hag anything like 50% of the time is so surprising as to be almost laughable.  If you're going to claim something that dramatic and that far from the common wisdom and common play choices in Dominion... well it's a bold claim. You've got some explaining to do.

It's not a bold claim at all, just look at the last 20 Sea Hag logs from the top 10 players. That's the best way to learn about this.

well I just wanted to make this with my last 20 games when you PPE'd me. i'm not top 10 though.
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Gherald

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2014, 08:35:05 pm »
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It's pretty easy, is it? I don't recall it being easy to pull numbers on this kind of thing since councilroom went away.

It seemed like 95% to me at a guess, but 70% could be closer to the mathematical truth.

Anyway, very rarely do I feel like I lost a game because I went with Hag when my opponent didn't.  It's almost never happened that I can think of.  Whereas, it does seem to be the case that if my opponent ignores Hag those games become boringly easy wins.

The common wisdom is that Sea Hag is a powerful and very important card.  I might even ignore Mountebank more than I ignore Hag, not sure.  I guess I'll pay some more attention in the future
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2014, 08:38:06 pm »
+1

A general rule of thumb, when one or two (arguable) top players disagree with you, it's usually prudent to take a moment to consider what they are telling you.

(I'm of course referring to Mic and silverspawn here. silverspawn is crazy good these days!)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2014, 08:50:52 pm »
+3

I am considering it. And pointing out that it conflicts with a lot of prior experience and knowledge is part of that consideration.

I will experiment with buying Sea Hag less often the next ~20 times I see it
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2014, 08:57:37 pm »
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It's not the same.  For me, "ignorable" means that my plan would be little different if that card was suddenly added to (or removed from) a kingdom.  If you add Scout, it'll almost never matter to me.  If you add Jack, now I may have to change my entire game plan.  Double Jack is an extremely simple strategy that moves very quickly and is uniquely tough to slow down because Jack is designed to be an after-the-fact Moat, making it an important baseline to which you should compare your strategy.
True. I kind of thought that since it doesn't directly interact with the opponent, you can just ignore the fact that it's on the board if you're going for something faster than double Jack or anything with a single Jack (and if you're not, then you should just buy the Jack), but that's partially wrong because it still makes you less likely to buy Attacks and more likely to buy Council Rooms, etc.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2014, 03:41:37 am »
+2

It's almost as though you're talking about two different cards. Sea Hag amongst lower levels is just not the same as Sea Hag amongst top players. Ignoring it is a delicate process; make a few mistakes and you end up with all the purple for no gain.

This may very we'll explain why Gerald thinks Sea Hag is a great card (and rightfully so), while MicQ and Silverspawn (and me btw) have a different opinion/experience.
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