Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3]  All

Author Topic: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic  (Read 22243 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9707
  • Respect: +10765
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2014, 10:38:15 am »
0

I wouldn't call the announcing of Spades (or Hearts) bidding as there is no special reward for the highest bid.

Bridge is special as it normally hurts more to confound your partner than it helps to confound your opponents.

Disclaimer: I never played Spades and just looked up the rules.



You're still bidding in Spades, even though there's no exclusive benefit to bidding highest. I suppose the terminology should shift toward auctioning, as that is what bidding in many board games really boils down to.

And if we go that route, then I would tend to agree that it's hard to have auctioning without bluffing. I brought up Spades as an example of bidding without bluffing, but bidding is perhaps too broad of a term here.


While it is called "bidding" in spades, I believe that this is a completely different definition of the word than is used in other game contexts. In spades, "bidding" really just means "guessing". The "bid" is just your best estimate at how many tricks you will take. But in general, when talking about "bidding" in board games, I think of an auction, where your bid is an amount you are willing to pay to get a reward.

Now, Pinochle sort of combines these 2 things. In Pinochle, you bid on how many points you think you can take, but you are also auctioning against the other players, to see who is willing to bid the highest. Like a traditional auction, only the highest bidder gets the reward (getting to choose trumps, and getting the kitty in a 3-player game), but like Spades, his bid also serves a guess as to how many points he thinks he can make.
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

GendoIkari

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9707
  • Respect: +10765
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2014, 10:40:28 am »
0

Pretty much any eurogame that uses bidding doesn't have bluffing.

Or at least where bluffing isn't the main thing. Like in Tikal, you bid points for turn order (basically), and sure, you can sometimes bid higher than you're actually willing to pay so that someones pays more, but that's not the point of the mechanic in the game, if that makes sense.

Same in something like Evo or Cyclades.

Five Tribes has bidding for turn order and no bluffing at all.

This isn't my experience... if I think of bidding in Euro games, I think of Power Grid, For Sale, No Thanks, High Society, Princes of Florence... all of them have bluffing. Not bluffing like in Poker where you pretend to have better stuff hidden than you really do, but bluffing in terms of making it look like you want to win the auction when perhaps you really don't want to win (you just wanted to make it more expensive).
Logged
Check out my F.DS extension for Chrome! Card links; Dominion icons, and maybe more! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13363.0

Thread for Firefox version:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16305.0

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11815
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12868
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2014, 11:02:21 am »
0


Roll and move - Candyland

There's no rolling in Candyland. You draw cards and match colors. Roll and move I think is originally Parcheesi.

To add to the list:

Trick-taking - Whist
Cheating - War
Complaining about how bad your teammates are - DotA

What's DotA? Are you sure what it according to you corresponds to is a mechanism?
It's an MOBA and complaining about your teammates is definitely the biggest mechanic in the game, although it's not the only one.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

Flip5ide

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
  • Highest Rank/Rating: 58/5600
  • Respect: +136
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2014, 06:37:12 pm »
0

Roll and move - Candyland

There are no dice in Cand... aaannnnd it's been said already.
Logged
"If at first you don't succeed, find out if the loser gets anything." - William Lyon Phelps

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11815
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12868
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2014, 03:28:59 pm »
+1

I wonder if it could be possible to design a good (computer?) game that's literally just deckbuilding. You build the deck, an AI plays it for you against another AI and the person whose deck wins, wins the game. Or possibly, depending on the rules and the cards, the playing decisions could be full random too, or random under some rules (that you can't play a "Smithy" type card if you have a "Village" type card in your hand or something like that).
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2707
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2014, 04:09:43 pm »
0

I wonder if it could be possible to design a good (computer?) game that's literally just deckbuilding. You build the deck, an AI plays it for you against another AI and the person whose deck wins, wins the game. Or possibly, depending on the rules and the cards, the playing decisions could be full random too, or random under some rules (that you can't play a "Smithy" type card if you have a "Village" type card in your hand or something like that).

Actually, this sounds like an interesting idea...
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2014, 05:42:07 pm »
+1

I wonder if it could be possible to design a good (computer?) game that's literally just deckbuilding. You build the deck, an AI plays it for you against another AI and the person whose deck wins, wins the game. Or possibly, depending on the rules and the cards, the playing decisions could be full random too, or random under some rules (that you can't play a "Smithy" type card if you have a "Village" type card in your hand or something like that).
Richard Garfield talked about this many years ago. You would build a deck, and then make no decisions during the "game," and then maybe sideboard.
Logged

A Drowned Kernel

  • 2015 World Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1067
  • They/Them
  • Respect: +1980
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2014, 06:14:57 pm »
+1

Gratuitous Space Battles does something like that for RTS games, I believe. You design a fleet, give it some orders, then send into battle.
Logged
The perfect engine
But it will never go off
Three piles are empty

Teproc

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 765
  • Shuffle iT Username: Teproc
  • aka Le Teproc
  • Respect: +356
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2014, 06:26:14 pm »
+2

I wonder if it could be possible to design a good (computer?) game that's literally just deckbuilding. You build the deck, an AI plays it for you against another AI and the person whose deck wins, wins the game. Or possibly, depending on the rules and the cards, the playing decisions could be full random too, or random under some rules (that you can't play a "Smithy" type card if you have a "Village" type card in your hand or something like that).

Actually, this sounds like an interesting idea...

Isn't this basically what dominion simulators are ?
Logged
Mafia play advice: If you are not content with the way the game is going, always assume that it is your fault.

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2707
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2014, 06:54:09 pm »
0

I wonder if it could be possible to design a good (computer?) game that's literally just deckbuilding. You build the deck, an AI plays it for you against another AI and the person whose deck wins, wins the game. Or possibly, depending on the rules and the cards, the playing decisions could be full random too, or random under some rules (that you can't play a "Smithy" type card if you have a "Village" type card in your hand or something like that).

Actually, this sounds like an interesting idea...

Isn't this basically what dominion simulators are ?

No, you play in some way to build a deck, then the simulator plays.  I like the randomness idea though, makes for completely different strategy.
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

WalrusMcFishSr

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 642
  • An enormous walrus the size of Antarctica
  • Respect: +1793
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2014, 10:25:47 pm »
+1

My friend and I once tried a modified game of War sort of like that. The premise was a simplified version of ordinary War, but instead of a standard deck, we each designed a custom deck of 100 cards. Each player had 1000 points total which could be distributed amongst the cards as the player chose, so long as each card had a non-negative integer value. Then the decks would be shuffled and run against each other deterministically.

So it ended up being like Colonel Blotto: The Game basically. Kind of an interesting idea that held our interest for a few days. (My deck won obviously) Even War can be a fun game if you jazz it up!
Logged
My Dominion videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/WalrusMcFishSr   <---Bet you can't click on that!

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9187
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2014, 10:32:00 pm »
+2

My friend and I once tried a modified game of War sort of like that. The premise was a simplified version of ordinary War, but instead of a standard deck, we each designed a custom deck of 100 cards. Each player had 1000 points total which could be distributed amongst the cards as the player chose, so long as each card had a non-negative integer value. Then the decks would be shuffled and run against each other deterministically.

So it ended up being like Colonel Blotto: The Game basically. Kind of an interesting idea that held our interest for a few days. (My deck won obviously) Even War can be a fun game if you jazz it up!

Isn't this broken?  Whoever has the highest number can never lose that card, right?  Just assign 1000 to a single card and 0 to the rest.  I guess it depends on how you implement the War function.  If you have to deal out (for example) 3 extra cards that are "prizes" then you run the risk of losing the trump card as a prize.
Logged

WalrusMcFishSr

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 642
  • An enormous walrus the size of Antarctica
  • Respect: +1793
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2014, 10:39:13 pm »
+1

The "war" function was completely left out for simplicity. It's just, each turn the next two cards go head to head; if one is higher than the other, that player gets a point; if tied then neither player does. No cards are "stolen" either...after the deck is drawn the player with the most points wins. You could make the tie part more interesting if you wanted, or make the gradation finer/continuous to discourage ties. Negative numbers should really not be allowed.

So, for example, that deck of 1 1000 and 99 zeroes would lose badly against a deck of 100 10s.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 10:42:39 pm by WalrusMcFishSr »
Logged
My Dominion videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/WalrusMcFishSr   <---Bet you can't click on that!

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9412
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #63 on: October 09, 2014, 11:08:32 pm »
+3

The "war" function was completely left out for simplicity. It's just, each turn the next two cards go head to head; if one is higher than the other, that player gets a point; if tied then neither player does. No cards are "stolen" either...after the deck is drawn the player with the most points wins. You could make the tie part more interesting if you wanted, or make the gradation finer/continuous to discourage ties. Negative numbers should really not be allowed.

So, for example, that deck of 1 1000 and 99 zeroes would lose badly against a deck of 100 10s.

Ah.  Not having the repeated passes through the deck is a significant change from the original game War.

My deck for this game would include the Jack of Spades, two Chancellors, Twofold Askara, Change History, Charmander, Epidemic, and Demonic Tutor.  Among other things.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2849
  • Respect: +1559
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #64 on: October 10, 2014, 07:28:32 pm »
+1

The "war" function was completely left out for simplicity. It's just, each turn the next two cards go head to head; if one is higher than the other, that player gets a point; if tied then neither player does. No cards are "stolen" either...after the deck is drawn the player with the most points wins. You could make the tie part more interesting if you wanted, or make the gradation finer/continuous to discourage ties. Negative numbers should really not be allowed.

So, for example, that deck of 1 1000 and 99 zeroes would lose badly against a deck of 100 10s.
Interesting. Clearly no one deck is optimal for this game, because in each battle you're best off either winning by a little or losing by a lot: if you know your opponent's next card is going to be N, then N+1 (for small N) and 0 (for large N) are both strong plays. So any optimal strategy has to be randomized.

I feel it should be possible to figure out the optimal strategy for this game, maybe with computer help, but I don't know how to do it yet.
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9412
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #65 on: October 10, 2014, 08:47:43 pm »
0

The "war" function was completely left out for simplicity. It's just, each turn the next two cards go head to head; if one is higher than the other, that player gets a point; if tied then neither player does. No cards are "stolen" either...after the deck is drawn the player with the most points wins. You could make the tie part more interesting if you wanted, or make the gradation finer/continuous to discourage ties. Negative numbers should really not be allowed.

So, for example, that deck of 1 1000 and 99 zeroes would lose badly against a deck of 100 10s.
Interesting. Clearly no one deck is optimal for this game, because in each battle you're best off either winning by a little or losing by a lot: if you know your opponent's next card is going to be N, then N+1 (for small N) and 0 (for large N) are both strong plays. So any optimal strategy has to be randomized.

I feel it should be possible to figure out the optimal strategy for this game, maybe with computer help, but I don't know how to do it yet.

It sounds a bit like an extremely complex game theory "game." Like Prisoner's Dilemma, which is only truly a game when game theorists discuss it.  This has a very similar feel.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

WalrusMcFishSr

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 642
  • An enormous walrus the size of Antarctica
  • Respect: +1793
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #66 on: October 10, 2014, 09:06:12 pm »
0

Ah.  Not having the repeated passes through the deck is a significant change from the original game War.

My deck for this game would include the Jack of Spades, two Chancellors, Twofold Askara, Change History, Charmander, Epidemic, and Demonic Tutor.  Among other things.

Yeah, I realize after you said it that it's a little silly to call it 'War' without the War mechanic haha. But that's how we originally conceptualized it.

Sweet deck though

Interesting. Clearly no one deck is optimal for this game, because in each battle you're best off either winning by a little or losing by a lot: if you know your opponent's next card is going to be N, then N+1 (for small N) and 0 (for large N) are both strong plays. So any optimal strategy has to be randomized.

I feel it should be possible to figure out the optimal strategy for this game, maybe with computer help, but I don't know how to do it yet.

Definitely I used a computer to try to optimize my strategy. It was just a genetic sort of thing though so I didn't make any serious attempt to rationalize it. My 'genomes' did have access to multiple decks that they would choose from randomly.

It sounds a bit like an extremely complex game theory "game." Like Prisoner's Dilemma, which is only truly a game when game theorists discuss it.  This has a very similar feel.

For sure, this was more of a thought exercise than anything else. But it was actually kind of fun, I think the idea is pretty cool. Before we did the computer-assisted match we played a test game using smaller numbers and physical cards, and that was mildly entertaining too.
Logged
My Dominion videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/WalrusMcFishSr   <---Bet you can't click on that!

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2849
  • Respect: +1559
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #67 on: October 11, 2014, 03:03:54 am »
+5

The "war" function was completely left out for simplicity. It's just, each turn the next two cards go head to head; if one is higher than the other, that player gets a point; if tied then neither player does. No cards are "stolen" either...after the deck is drawn the player with the most points wins. You could make the tie part more interesting if you wanted, or make the gradation finer/continuous to discourage ties. Negative numbers should really not be allowed.

So, for example, that deck of 1 1000 and 99 zeroes would lose badly against a deck of 100 10s.
Interesting. Clearly no one deck is optimal for this game, because in each battle you're best off either winning by a little or losing by a lot: if you know your opponent's next card is going to be N, then N+1 (for small N) and 0 (for large N) are both strong plays. So any optimal strategy has to be randomized.

I feel it should be possible to figure out the optimal strategy for this game, maybe with computer help, but I don't know how to do it yet.
Playing to maximize average points (i.e. expected value), rather than playing to win, turns out to be pretty straightforward. (Sorry that this is a bit off topic.)

First observe that you might as well uniformly randomly permute your cards. Any possible advantage you could gain by not doing this could be countered by your opponent uniformly randomly permuting _his_ cards. So all that matters is how many cards you select of each value. Given that, the expected value can be calculated using a double sum.

It's easiest to reason through the rest using a continuous version of the game, where the double sum becomes a double integral. In the continuous game, you're asked to pick a non-negative, non-decreasing function f on [0,1] whose integral must be 1/2. Your opponent simultaneously picks a function g satisfying the same conditions. Your score is: integral from [0,1] of (integral from [0,1] of H(g(y) - f(x)) dy) dx, where H is the Heaviside step function defined piecewise (see http://mathworld.wolfram.com/HeavisideStepFunction.html). Observe that the score is at least 0 and at most 1. (Edit: Whoops, checking this the next day, the double integral I gave there is actually your opponent's score, not your score. Since 1-1/2=1/2, the reasoning later on still works.)

In this continuous game, the best strategy is f(x) = x. Then the score (given by the double integral) becomes the Lebesgue integral of g, which is always 1/2, because we required its integral to be 1/2 as part of the game. Given that this is a zero-sum symmetric game, nothing better is possible.

Bringing that idea back to the original discrete game, the intuition is that you should choose about the same amount of each value, starting from 0 and ending up at whatever value makes the point total work out. (Let's use score 2 for a card win and score 1 for a card tie to make the arithmetic cleaner.) The rounding is a bit annoying. It'd be easier if the game had 950 points to distribute among 100 cards, because in that case you could do 5 cards each of 0,1,2,...,19. With you choosing that strategy, for a card value N your opponent picks from 0 to 19, its expected contribution to his score is just 2(N/20) + (1/20), and with 20 and above it's worse (<=2(N/20)), so his expected score can be no better than 95 + 100(1/20) = 100, which is exactly half the available total score.

When playing to win rather than playing to maximize score, this analysis still leaves open the door to strategies that try to tilt the score distribution so that they usually win by a little and occasionally lose by a lot. I haven't thought that through.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 02:18:12 pm by blueblimp »
Logged

ipofanes

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1439
  • Shuffle iT Username: ipofanes
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2014, 04:04:24 am »
+1

I have replaced "Go" with "Forum Romanum" as the bare-bone area control game.

In Forum Romanum, each player, in clockwise order, puts a meeple on a 7 by 7 board, and rows, columns, main diagonals and certain rectangular patterns are scored once the last meeple has entered them. Can't get more basic than that. By contrast, Go is so much more than area control.
Logged
Lord Rattington denies my undo requests

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6363
  • Respect: +25699
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2014, 01:59:00 pm »
+1

I have replaced "Go" with "Forum Romanum" as the bare-bone area control game.

In Forum Romanum, each player, in clockwise order, puts a meeple on a 7 by 7 board, and rows, columns, main diagonals and certain rectangular patterns are scored once the last meeple has entered them. Can't get more basic than that. By contrast, Go is so much more than area control.
Aw. Wolfgang Kramer as it turns out. Well he gets around. I had that premise, wondering if I was going to do more with it ever. For me the premise was "3-D area control." Each square gets a random chit at the start, that you take when taking that square. You score for control of rows, columns, and chits. It needed something more.
Logged

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2849
  • Respect: +1559
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2014, 05:15:07 pm »
0

Addition to the list:

Simultaneously passing single cards around the circle of players -- My Ship Sails
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 05:16:30 pm by blueblimp »
Logged

ipofanes

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1439
  • Shuffle iT Username: ipofanes
  • Respect: +776
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #71 on: October 29, 2014, 05:07:06 am »
0

Addition to the list:

Simultaneously passing single cards around the circle of players -- My Ship Sails

<looking up rules> This is definitely barebone, even more so than the game known as "Schwimmen" in Germany.

Isn't there a more concise term for this action? It's not drafting, and "schupfen" in Tichu is not exactly the same.
Logged
Lord Rattington denies my undo requests

blueblimp

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2849
  • Respect: +1559
    • View Profile
Re: "Bare-bones" games sporting a single mechanic
« Reply #72 on: October 29, 2014, 09:08:11 am »
0

Isn't there a more concise term for this action?
I originally wrote something like "passing cards around the table", but that could be confused for drafting, which feels much different. Also the simultaneous play is pretty important. It's the same mechanic as on Masquerade, but I don't know what that's named either.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]  All
 

Page created in 0.135 seconds with 20 queries.