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[A Drowned Kernel]

Liar's Dice has bidding, probabilities and bluffing.

Have you guys played the card game BS? I think it goes by a number of other names as well. That comes pretty close to a pure bluffing game, although of course there's some other strategy too.

Slightly off-topic but I much prefer the "Russian Roulette" variant of BS. Instead of simply checking if the person lied or not, the person calling "BS" has to pick one card from the cards that were put in. If it's the correct card, then they have to take the pile, even if the other cards weren't correct.

[eHalcyon]

Can a pure bluffing game exist without probabilities?  Even in Cheat/BS, there is some probabilities involved.  If somebody claims three kings and you have one in your hand, you might call them on it.

[Teproc]

Well probabilities is not a mechanic, it might just be an element of bluffing, I just included it in there because Liar's Dice is particularly mathy compared to other bluffing games like Skull & Roses for example, where double-guessing is more important.

[Kuildeous]

I fell for that once. I wish I wish I had the perfect response for that back when I was younger.

Asshole: "Hey, want to play 52-Card Pick-up?"

Me: "Sure, how do you play?"

Asshole: *throws 52 cards on the ground*

Me: You win. *walk away*

All that means is he made the mistake of playing with his own deck. Never play 52 pickup with your own deck.

Even with my own deck, I'd be willing to abandon it to stick to him. I can buy another deck of cards for a buck. Of course, my younger self would have thought it insane to give up on a deck of cards, so I talk the big talk now, but you're right that I'd be screwed if I let him do that to my own deck.

[ipofanes]

Can a pure bluffing game exist without probabilities?  Even in Cheat/BS, there is some probabilities involved.  If somebody claims three kings and you have one in your hand, you might call them on it.

Also, bidding without any element of bluffing is rare, as in most games (unlike in most real-life situations) you profit from an opponent paying more than he intended.

What's Cheat/BS? The most common German variation is "Bube du lügst" where a sequence from 7 to Ace (cards 2 to 6 are dropped in many German games) is built (allegedly) with hidden cards. It often fails due to stalemates after one party monopolises crucial cards.

[eHalcyon]

Can a pure bluffing game exist without probabilities?  Even in Cheat/BS, there is some probabilities involved.  If somebody claims three kings and you have one in your hand, you might call them on it.

Also, bidding without any element of bluffing is rare, as in most games (unlike in most real-life situations) you profit from an opponent paying more than he intended.

What's Cheat/BS? The most common German variation is "Bube du lügst" where a sequence from 7 to Ace (cards 2 to 6 are dropped in many German games) is built (allegedly) with hidden cards. It often fails due to stalemates after one party monopolises crucial cards.

Simple game with regular playing cards.  Those are just two names; I'm sure there are more.

It's been ages since I've played it.  As I recall --The deck is dealt out to all the players.  On your turn, you have to play any number of cards of the next value in ascending order.  If the previous player played 9s, I have to play at least one 10, then the next player has to play at least one Jack.  You declare (truthfully) how many cards you are playing.  Cards are always played face down, and you can cheat by playing the wrong cards (e.g. I say I'm playing two 10s, but I actually play a 2 and a 3).  If you thinking somebody is cheating, you can Cheat.  If you are wrong, you take all the cards played so far.  If you are correct, the cheater takes those cards.  First person to empty his hand wins.

[ConMan]

Can a pure bluffing game exist without probabilities?  Even in Cheat/BS, there is some probabilities involved.  If somebody claims three kings and you have one in your hand, you might call them on it.

Also, bidding without any element of bluffing is rare, as in most games (unlike in most real-life situations) you profit from an opponent paying more than he intended.

What's Cheat/BS? The most common German variation is "Bube du lügst" where a sequence from 7 to Ace (cards 2 to 6 are dropped in many German games) is built (allegedly) with hidden cards. It often fails due to stalemates after one party monopolises crucial cards.

Simple game with regular playing cards.  Those are just two names; I'm sure there are more.

It's been ages since I've played it.  As I recall --The deck is dealt out to all the players.  On your turn, you have to play any number of cards of the next value in ascending order.  If the previous player played 9s, I have to play at least one 10, then the next player has to play at least one Jack.  You declare (truthfully) how many cards you are playing.  Cards are always played face down, and you can cheat by playing the wrong cards (e.g. I say I'm playing two 10s, but I actually play a 2 and a 3).  If you thinking somebody is cheating, you can Cheat.  If you are wrong, you take all the cards played so far.  If you are correct, the cheater takes those cards.  First person to empty his hand wins.

Whereas in the version I used to play, you played the same value - so if someone leads with 2 3s, then the next player might put down a single 3, then the next one could go for quad 3. And we played with both the "reveal all" and "reveal one" variants, as well as wild jokers.

[Davio]

Can a pure bluffing game exist without probabilities?  Even in Cheat/BS, there is some probabilities involved.  If somebody claims three kings and you have one in your hand, you might call them on it.

Also, bidding without any element of bluffing is rare, as in most games (unlike in most real-life situations) you profit from an opponent paying more than he intended.

What's Cheat/BS? The most common German variation is "Bube du lügst" where a sequence from 7 to Ace (cards 2 to 6 are dropped in many German games) is built (allegedly) with hidden cards. It often fails due to stalemates after one party monopolises crucial cards.

Bridge has bidding without bluffing.

In fact, it is illegal to make a highly unusual bid.
Your opponents may demand an explanation if they suspect you're trying to use secret bids to let your partner know you have certain cards.

There are certain unusual bids because of the scoring system. For instance, something like 2 Clubs scores more points than 3 Clubs (don't know an actual example) so there's no need to "overbid", because you only stand to lose more points if it fails without any points to gain.

[mpsprs]

In fact, it is illegal to make a highly unusual bid.
Your opponents may demand an explanation if they suspect you're trying to use secret bids to let your partner know you have certain cards.

More precisely, the opponents may always demand an explanation from your partner of what your bid means (according to your partnership agreement).  You are free to bid ridiculously, provided partner is also just as surprised as the opponents are by what you actually have (and subject to the proviso that if you do this often, your partner can start to expect it, and hence it becomes an unwritten part of the partnership agreement which must be disclosed).

These bids are called psychs.  (In the spirit of bridge's full disclosure, there are certain types of psychs that are entirely barred).

[Kuildeous]

Spades also has bidding without bluffing. Well, I suppose you could bluff by trying to intimidate the other players, but I don't think that's the primary reason for the bid. It hurts you to bid too high or too low.

Each round of Spades has 13 tricks. You bid however many you think you can take (if you have the ace of spades, king of spades, and the queen of spades, you are guaranteed to get at least three tricks). You can overextend yourself and bid too high since successful bids get you points, so higher is better, but I don't view it as bluffing. Arrogance perhaps. You might bid too conservatively and not realize that you have stronger cards than you thought, especially if you bid nil.

[GeoLib]

The card game "Oh Hell" is basically just bidding with no bluffing.

[ipofanes]

I wouldn't call the announcing of Spades (or Hearts) bidding as there is no special reward for the highest bid.

Bridge is special as it normally hurts more to confound your partner than it helps to confound your opponents.

Disclaimer: I never played Spades and just looked up the rules.

[Kuildeous]

I wouldn't call the announcing of Spades (or Hearts) bidding as there is no special reward for the highest bid.

Bridge is special as it normally hurts more to confound your partner than it helps to confound your opponents.

Disclaimer: I never played Spades and just looked up the rules.

You're still bidding in Spades, even though there's no exclusive benefit to bidding highest. I suppose the terminology should shift toward auctioning, as that is what bidding in many board games really boils down to.

And if we go that route, then I would tend to agree that it's hard to have auctioning without bluffing. I brought up Spades as an example of bidding without bluffing, but bidding is perhaps too broad of a term here.

[Teproc]

Pretty much any eurogame that uses bidding doesn't have bluffing.

Or at least where bluffing isn't the main thing. Like in Tikal, you bid points for turn order (basically), and sure, you can sometimes bid higher than you're actually willing to pay so that someones pays more, but that's not the point of the mechanic in the game, if that makes sense.

Same in something like Evo or Cyclades.

Five Tribes has bidding for turn order and no bluffing at all.

[ipofanes]

I suppose the terminology should shift toward auctioning, as that is what bidding in many board games really boils down to.

ok, it might have been a problem of semantics.

Cyclades is an example where I regularly overbid yield to the almighty deity only hoping that somebody else will raise be even more devoted so I could go Apollo which I intended to do anyway.You may also argue semantics, but it counts as bluffing in my book.

[eHalcyon]

Off topic, but I got to play Cyclades for the first time this weekend. I won without ever going to Apollo. However, another player who was stuck on Apollo half the game could have won if he had bid 10 on Ares instead of 11. He forgot about the cost to travel and had one fewer soldier to attack, which would have made the difference.

[qmech]

It probably wasn't first, and I'm not sure what to call it (connecting?), but Trans America/Europa only really has one mechanic.  That's probably a large factor in whether people will like it: my family do, but I get the impression that some groups I've shown it to find it tedious. 

[Teproc]

Off topic, but I got to play Cyclades for the first time this weekend. I won without ever going to Apollo. However, another player who was stuck on Apollo half the game could have won if he had bid 10 on Ares instead of 11. He forgot about the cost to travel and had one fewer soldier to attack, which would have made the difference.

That's both what's great and bad about the game. Anyone can win. You're never, never out of it. Which means that people sometimes complain that it's random, when really it's more that it's a political game, but I really appreciate that about it.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Roll and move - Candyland

There's no rolling in Candyland. You draw cards and match colors. Roll and move I think is originally Parcheesi.

To add to the list:

Trick-taking - Whist
Cheating - War
Complaining about how bad your teammates are - DotA

[eHalcyon]

What about Backgammon for roll and move?  Although maybe the doubling cube counts as bidding?  I'm not very familiar with the game, actually.

[sudgy]

What about Backgammon for roll and move?  Although maybe the doubling cube counts as bidding?  I'm not very familiar with the game, actually.

It's not roll and move at all.  Role and move is "roll this, move your single piece there."  Backgammon is "roll two dice, move any of your pieces how much one die was rolled as."  You have a lot of choices with Backgammon, while roll and move is no choice.

[eHalcyon]

What about Backgammon for roll and move?  Although maybe the doubling cube counts as bidding?  I'm not very familiar with the game, actually.

It's not roll and move at all.  Role and move is "roll this, move your single piece there."  Backgammon is "roll two dice, move any of your pieces how much one die was rolled as."  You have a lot of choices with Backgammon, while roll and move is no choice.

This is a misconception.  Roll and move means you roll and then you move pieces according to that roll.  A lot of roll and move games are terrible because there is no choice, but you can implement a good game with that mechanic.  Backgammon is a prime example.

[Kuildeous]

I would agree that roll-and-move can be tactical. Any time you have multiple pieces to move (Backgammon, Trouble, Sorry), then you can make a choice.

And I included Sorry because I'll count cards (even Candyland) as random enough to be functionally the same as roll and move. The biggest difference is that not all outcomes are uniformly possible. Even if they are uniformly possible at the beginning, they cease to be after the first draw unless you reshuffle after every move (ugh!).

One could argue that it's draw-and-move, but if you're going to get that persnickety about semantics, then I would counter by grouping them all as randomly-pick-and-move, which just sounds silly.

[ipofanes]

What about Backgammon for roll and move?  Although maybe the doubling cube counts as bidding?  I'm not very familiar with the game, actually.

I am not looking for the oldest archetype but for the game which embodies the mechanics in its purest form. I prefer Chutes and Ladders as an example over Backgammon.

[ipofanes]

Roll and move - Candyland

There's no rolling in Candyland. You draw cards and match colors. Roll and move I think is originally Parcheesi.

To add to the list:

Trick-taking - Whist
Cheating - War
Complaining about how bad your teammates are - DotA

What's DotA? Are you sure what it according to you corresponds to is a mechanism?