Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]  All

Author Topic: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?  (Read 15678 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Axxle

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
  • Most Valuable Serial Killer
  • Respect: +1965
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2012, 09:36:40 pm »
+1

I'd love to see an invite only of the top16 as long as they also willing to participate, otherwise replacements from the next ladder ones to crown one tournament champion of the season.
Of course those matches would generate much bigger interests, reports and legacy then. Unfortunately there is no spectator mode like in bsw for live audience experience.

WanderingWinder has been messing around with live streaming games here: http://www.livestream.com/wanderingWinder/.  Not sure what the cap on concurrent viewers is though.
Logged
We might be from all over the world, but "we all talk this one language  : +1 card + 1 action +1 buy , gain , discard, trash... " - RTT

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2012, 10:49:47 pm »
0

I'd love to see an invite only of the top16 as long as they also willing to participate, otherwise replacements from the next ladder ones to crown one tournament champion of the season.
Of course those matches would generate much bigger interests, reports and legacy then. Unfortunately there is no spectator mode like in bsw for live audience experience.

WanderingWinder has been messing around with live streaming games here: http://www.livestream.com/wanderingWinder/.  Not sure what the cap on concurrent viewers is though.
50. If I get the thing 'verified' (not sure how much work that is), it goes to 'unlimited' though I doubt it's truly unlimited.

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3603
  • Respect: +6121
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2012, 10:14:25 am »
0

Let's restart this conversation, with a particular focus on 3- and 4-player tournaments.  I like several of the ideas suggested so far, but would like to hear more on your thoughts on multiplayer tournaments.
Logged

DrHades

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Respect: +79
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2012, 04:59:30 pm »
0

Future tournament - I think 4 people are too much for two reasons:
1. It is much more difficult to arrange the match.
2. Only 12 Provinces is too small when there are 4 skilled players.

The divisions should be geographic (people from same time zone will likely has time in the same period). I think the best system would be a single-elimination tournament, where only 1 of 3 players advances. Two pointing systems comes to my mind:
1. Winner gets 2 points, the second 1 point and the third nothing (in case of tie, the points are divided). The first to reach x points advances to the next round. Main disatvantage: Can happen that one of the players loses even a theoretical chance to advance and may ruin the games after that (not playing them/not playing them seriously).
2. Winner gets a point, in case of tie, every player that won gets a point. The first one to win x games advances to the next round. Main disatvantage: 3rd place and 2nd place are the same (which doesn't seem right to me, so I would prefer the first system).

Not completely unrelated idea (I don't wanna start a new thread for this) - Who about we make a match "Big Money vs. Engine"? We choose a captain for both teams, players will sign up to one of the teams, captains will pick their rosters (maybe some conditions about level or country?) and let's see which philosophy wins!  ;D

Maybe there should be also a test for those who don't know which side to choose...
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2012, 05:06:12 pm »
0

Future tournament - I think 4 people are too much for two reasons:
1. It is much more difficult to arrange the match.
2. Only 12 Provinces is too small when there are 4 skilled players.

The divisions should be geographic (people from same time zone will likely has time in the same period). I think the best system would be a single-elimination tournament, where only 1 of 3 players advances. Two pointing systems comes to my mind:
1. Winner gets 2 points, the second 1 point and the third nothing (in case of tie, the points are divided). The first to reach x points advances to the next round. Main disatvantage: Can happen that one of the players loses even a theoretical chance to advance and may ruin the games after that (not playing them/not playing them seriously).
2. Winner gets a point, in case of tie, every player that won gets a point. The first one to win x games advances to the next round. Main disatvantage: 3rd place and 2nd place are the same (which doesn't seem right to me, so I would prefer the first system).

Not completely unrelated idea (I don't wanna start a new thread for this) - Who about we make a match "Big Money vs. Engine"? We choose a captain for both teams, players will sign up to one of the teams, captains will pick their rosters (maybe some conditions about level or country?) and let's see which philosophy wins!  ;D

Maybe there should be also a test for those who don't know which side to choose...
I agree 3-player seems more reasonable than 4 both for logistical reasons, and for the fact that the game was balanced primarily for 3-player. Time zone is not necessarily the most important thing, since people have availability at different times of day. In terms of the scoring system, I prefer the second one. I don't think there should be a difference between 2nd and 3rd. As Ricky Bobby said: "If you ain't first, you're last!"
Logged

Geronimoo

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +868
    • View Profile
    • Geronimoo's Dominion Simulator
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2012, 05:23:05 pm »
0

-3 players
-Division by time zone, after that I have no idea
-Probably 3 points for winner, 1 for second, 0 for last and play until X points

@DrHades: there isn't a BM or engine philosophy. People have their preferences, but the optimal play depends almost entirely on the board.
Logged

DrHades

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Respect: +79
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2012, 05:34:22 pm »
0

-3 players
-Division by time zone, after that I have no idea
-Probably 3 points for winner, 1 for second, 0 for last and play until X points

@DrHades: there isn't a BM or engine philosophy. People have their preferences, but the optimal play depends almost entirely on the board.

3-1-0 is a reasonable compromise I guess...

I know, that the optimal strategy depends on the board, but I think every player (even the top ones) has a preference for BMX or for Engines and it influence his play a lot...
Logged

RisingJaguar

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 527
  • Respect: +184
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2012, 07:40:46 pm »
0

I don't have much more to add.  I like the idea of 3 player tournaments (but separating pools of time zone or even particular times) sounds like a fun new idea to explore.  I know I have no grasp of this so it would be nice to see. 

Also just wanted to say that Double elimination would be great to have people play more games.  The obvious problem is that these tournaments are MUCH longer (someone who loses the first match has to play twice as many matches to get to finals than someone who doesn't lose at all).  Losers bracket have to actually wait for the winners bracket as well. 
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3668
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2012, 08:23:24 pm »
0

I still think separating the tourney into tiers is a good solution. A lot of complaints from the current one seem to stem from the fact that a lot of weaker players are eliminated in the first round due to seeding and don't really get to play much. Separating people into tiers, based on iso rankings of whatever (like 20-, 21-30, 31+ or something) would work. Also smaller #'s of players would allow for some of the neater ideas which lengthen the tournament (double elimination, pool play, etc) to be much more viable.

Though there is the major drawback of what to do with prizes. You need more and you might have people purposefully play worse in order to drop into a lower tier. Never a solution for everything.

EDIT: Or you could just have a general call for players like last time and just have cut offs for a certain percentage. Like if you wanted 4 tiers, just have the top 25% be in tier 1 etc. This ensures even distribution.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 08:26:41 pm by jonts26 »
Logged

yuma

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 695
  • Respect: +609
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2012, 09:58:56 pm »
0

A lot of complaints from the current one seem to stem from the fact that a lot of weaker players are eliminated in the first round due to seeding and don't really get to play much.

The best sports competition in the world is the soccer--or football--World Cup, could we try something similar for Dominion? In the World Cup every team gets to play at least three times in the group stages. I imagine this would also work for dominion. Groups of 4 that play each other once. Wins are given x points and the top one or two from the group advance. In contrast to soccer, tiebreakers should not be solved using point differentials. In soccer the conditions are basically similar each game. In Dominion they are not. Instead a tiebreaker match could be used.

Seeding would still occur, and having best of 7 or 5 or 3 could still occur between individual opponents.
Logged

shark_bait

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1103
  • Shuffle iT Username: shark_bait
  • Luckyfin and Land of Hinter for iso aliases
  • Respect: +1868
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2012, 12:04:59 am »
0

On the contrary to others, I think a tourney with 4-player games would be interesting, albeit hard to organize.  Most of us are used to having 4 provinces per player and playing a tourney where each player only gets 3 provinces would be interesting.  Also interesting would be pile management with four players possibly jockeying over a 3-pile ending.
Logged
Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

Axxle

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
  • Most Valuable Serial Killer
  • Respect: +1965
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2012, 12:06:05 am »
0

I don't have much more to add.  I like the idea of 3 player tournaments (but separating pools of time zone or even particular times) sounds like a fun new idea to explore.  I know I have no grasp of this so it would be nice to see. 

Also just wanted to say that Double elimination would be great to have people play more games.  The obvious problem is that these tournaments are MUCH longer (someone who loses the first match has to play twice as many matches to get to finals than someone who doesn't lose at all).  Losers bracket have to actually wait for the winners bracket as well.

Double Elimination doesn't work like that.  http://www.printyourbrackets.com/16teamdoubleelimination.html
If you lose a game you only end up playing one more match to beat the winner of the winners bracket twice.  Also, the matches happen concurrently so no waiting on a winners bracket.  Basically there is one or two more weeks of matches in the entire tournament.
Logged
We might be from all over the world, but "we all talk this one language  : +1 card + 1 action +1 buy , gain , discard, trash... " - RTT

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2012, 02:56:06 am »
0

^You should look more carefully at your bracket. There are twice as many games in the loser's bracket, so if you fall to loser bracket early, you play many more games.
Logged

Smartie

  • Coppersmith
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48
  • Respect: +12
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2012, 08:54:52 am »
0

Here I am assuming that most people play for the fun of it  :) I think we can organize it like a soccer match whereby each player can get a chance to start 1st and then compute a score say 3 for winner, 1 for 2nd and 0 for last. And each fight say 3 diff combi. And the top 3 proceeds and continues till 3 top players. Of course this may need more refinements, but think it still be cool!
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2012, 09:31:41 am »
0

I'm definitely in favor of winner-take-all, and it's for the same kinds of reasons that I don't like using VP points as a tiebreaker in tournaments... me losing by 50 points does not mean I wasn't really close to winning. Losing by 1 point doesn't really mean I was close, I could have had no chance. So giving people points for 2nd place promotes a couple things I don't like: 1)ending the game while not in the lead, to secure like 2nd, and 2)greening earlier than you perhaps otherwise would. Because if I only care about winning, I will hold off on busting out my combo until it's fully ripe, which should give me the best chance of winning. If I have to worry about 2nd being better than 3rd, that's going to pressure me into busting the combo out earlier. Or playing combos less. But in any case, doing things that will make me less likely to win, in order to place.

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2012, 09:32:35 am »
0

Also, I'm refraining on posting more specific formatting things until we see what the isotropic replacement looks like, since this tournament will basically have to be held there, if our information is to be believed.

Axxle

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1664
  • Most Valuable Serial Killer
  • Respect: +1965
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2012, 01:59:10 pm »
0

^You should look more carefully at your bracket. There are twice as many games in the loser's bracket, so if you fall to loser bracket early, you play many more games.
Ah, yes, I see what I got wrong, I was thinking of a consolation bracket. Whoops! 
Logged
We might be from all over the world, but "we all talk this one language  : +1 card + 1 action +1 buy , gain , discard, trash... " - RTT

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9411
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2012, 02:50:40 pm »
0

Also, I'm refraining on posting more specific formatting things until we see what the isotropic replacement looks like, since this tournament will basically have to be held there, if our information is to be believed.

Man, if only we had any information other than "we can't give you any information."
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2012, 03:24:53 pm »
0

We have that it's supposed to be out 'early this year'...

lespeutere

  • 2012 German Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 488
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: Future DominionStrategy tournaments?
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2012, 07:31:12 am »
0

Having a league style with a number of certain matches in a certain time frame might also simplify making appointments (although I didn't have any problems to make them even though all three I played were GMT-5/6/8 while I'm GMT+1).
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]  All
 

Page created in 0.231 seconds with 20 queries.