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Author Topic: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Serial Killer (ashersky) wins!  (Read 170919 times)

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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #250 on: September 24, 2014, 03:24:02 pm »

But please see silver's and joth's votes for examples of what I'm talking about.

Witherweaver

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #251 on: September 24, 2014, 03:32:44 pm »

And the main thing, in a broader context than this game: a case being ultimately correct or incorrect is not the same as it being good or bad.  "Correct" or "Incorrect" is whether they flip scum or town, but good or bad is the actual reasoning behind thinking what you're thinking, with the information you have available to you at the time.

I can, say, be a vig, randomly target someone, and hit scum and feel great about it, but my "argument" (in this case, choosing randomly) was obviously terrible.  Less extremely, I can make a bad argument against scum and just be lucky.  I can also make a good argument against town as town, or a good argument against town as scum. 

Or as a general example, most, if not all, Day 1 cases are bad.  But we still hit scum Day 1.

Voting for people is how the game is played, and in a lot of cases as town you're going to vote against other town players.  This is actually a good thing, because it can lead to more information to let you (and the other players) know if they really are scum or are actually town. 

And being "caught for the wrong reasons" is definitely a thing.  I feel it as scum when I get suspected for things that I didn't think warranted suspicion. 
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Witherweaver

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #252 on: September 24, 2014, 03:34:23 pm »

But please see silver's and joth's votes for examples of what I'm talking about.

Those votes weren't there at the time you were acting indignant.  Also, Joth was quite clearly sheeping me, as he quoted my vote against you, which contained my reasons.  So, it was sheeped, but not unexplained.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #253 on: September 24, 2014, 03:39:34 pm »

@WW: I mean, if Ichi flips scum, then that probably indicates that you're town (or at least not on Ichi's team). I think that if Ichi is scum, then his "please kill WW" comment was a last-ditch attempt to introduce some WIFOM regarding your alignment.

@Ichi: I don't really feel anyone voted for you for "no reason", and I'm not very strongly towny toward everyone who voted for you. But you seemed to be implying that people voting for you was implicitly scummy, and that's just not true.
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silverspawn

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #254 on: September 24, 2014, 03:40:30 pm »

unvote

I think it's important to consider the context of IG's posts. We were putting him under a lot of pressure, and he reacted in a certain way. A lot of people believe it's scummy. Still under pressure, he has made responses, and some people found those scummy.

After it was clear that he wasn't going to die right away, he's had time to breath. Relax, and think about what he wants to do next. His current defense should not be given the same weight as his prior posts, because it was something he had time to write and think about. Both scum!IG and town!IG could write such a post. Really, if you want to judge him, focus on his earlier posts. What he is writing now is nullish.

We have a lot of time left. Everyone should, at some point, reread the pressure phase and make a judgement. But for now, I don't see us getting anything useful out of him.

PPE 3

Witherweaver

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #255 on: September 24, 2014, 03:43:06 pm »

I was really hoping to get something more definitive from the time where he actually thought he was hammered.  I probably broke the truth too soon.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #256 on: September 24, 2014, 03:45:00 pm »

unvote

I think it's important to consider the context of IG's posts. We were putting him under a lot of pressure, and he reacted in a certain way. A lot of people believe it's scummy. Still under pressure, he has made responses, and some people found those scummy.

After it was clear that he wasn't going to die right away, he's had time to breath. Relax, and think about what he wants to do next. His current defense should not be given the same weight as his prior posts, because it was something he had time to write and think about. Both scum!IG and town!IG could write such a post. Really, if you want to judge him, focus on his earlier posts. What he is writing now is nullish.

We have a lot of time left. Everyone should, at some point, reread the pressure phase and make a judgement. But for now, I don't see us getting anything useful out of him.

PPE 3

So why are you unvoting?
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silverspawn

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #257 on: September 24, 2014, 03:48:13 pm »

I did not know that I put him on L-2. I spend about 3 seconds thinking, "should I count his posts?" and decided "no, I'm pretty sure it's not that close. If one more person had voted before me, I'm pretty sure I'd have checked it. Even though joth had one more post before him, I think it's believable that he didn't realize he was putting him at L-1.

What I'm getting at is, when he said he was lynched, I didn't know it wasn't true. I went back and counted, and I told him that he was still alive without thinking. The smarter thing would have been to pretend as though he was just hammered. So, we both made this mistake.

PPE 1

Eevee

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #258 on: September 24, 2014, 03:49:14 pm »

PPE: Eevee have I actually been lynched, or have you missed some of the thread?
How ironic that you thought it would give you any information, since so much of it was sheeped.
No, but when you flip, it will be informational. :) Sheeping doesn't take away the information value, not at all. People took strong stances on you early, that's information.
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silverspawn

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #259 on: September 24, 2014, 03:51:37 pm »

Quote
So why are you unvoting?

If you reread my posts, you'll see that I never actually said I thought he was scummy, although I of course made it sound like it. I voted for him with no explanation at all, and the only goal was to produce reactions under heavy pressure. We got a lot of that, way more than I expected. But now he's going to be afk for several hours, and he's going to come back to the game with a completely different mindset.

tl;dr the reason for my vote no longer applies, so I'll remove it.

Witherweaver

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #260 on: September 24, 2014, 03:53:14 pm »

Quote
So why are you unvoting?

If you reread my posts, you'll see that I never actually said I thought he was scummy, although I of course made it sound like it. I voted for him with no explanation at all, and the only goal was to produce reactions under heavy pressure. We got a lot of that, way more than I expected. But now he's going to be afk for several hours, and he's going to come back to the game with a completely different mindset.

tl;dr the reason for my vote no longer applies, so I'll remove it.

But does a different reason justify a vote?
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Eevee

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #261 on: September 24, 2014, 03:55:04 pm »

By the way, I think this was a good way for this game to start. I think we'll be able to make meaningful reads day 1, and get stuff out of rereads later because people are at least taking stances here.
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silverspawn

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #262 on: September 24, 2014, 03:57:00 pm »

Quote
But does a different reason justify a vote?
One of my first posts in this game stated that I plan to play very differently. A part of that is that I'm not going to share all of my thoughts as openly as I have in previous games.

So, I can't answer that.

jotheonah

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #263 on: September 24, 2014, 05:40:35 pm »

2. I must admit that I am very displeased at the light attitude that many people seem to express in regards to my near mislynch. This has less to do with me, and more to do with others' irresponsibility by not warning for L-1, L-2 etc. And also not checking where things are before voting. These are very bad habits as they act as excuses to allay responsibility, and in later days chances for scum to quickhammer.

to quote ... pops maybe? Ozle? I actually think the derphammer is a fine and useful tool for town. I think that if town is super cautious to not end the day until everyone's weighed in, everyone's had their say, as is our wont, that's really good for scum. If gives them every chance to weasel out of it. Look at my lynch in James Bond! if my freaking partners had been online, I could have weaseled out of the lynch because everyone was being so cautious.

Now later in the game, when our lynches are do or die, we absolutely slow down and think about everything. But day 1? If my vote had actually been the hammer, I think there's a very good chance that it would have hit scum. And even if it hadn't, I would have felt fine about it. I would obviously have been disappointed to mislynch town and more than a little worried about everyone thinking I was quickhammering scum, but I would not have considered myself to have misplayed.

All this is to say, nothing Ichimaru has done has given me any more reason to suspect he's town and I'm very happy to reinstitute my vote once everyone feels like they've had their say.
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Eevee

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #264 on: September 24, 2014, 05:49:03 pm »

It was O. I miss O!
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Eevee

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #265 on: September 24, 2014, 05:50:50 pm »

Joth, I agree to an extent, but what if Ichi had been a powerful role? There are valid reasons for not hammering people without giving them a change to comment.
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Eevee

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #266 on: September 24, 2014, 05:56:03 pm »

Ichi, it's a bit problematic your reads seem all over the place. It kills some of your credibility you call everyone who suspects you obvious scum that. Just try to see it this way: More people voted for you than there are scum. Some of them are town. Try to address your points to them.
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silverspawn

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #267 on: September 24, 2014, 06:08:02 pm »

Joth, I agree to an extent, but what if Ichi had been a powerful role? There are valid reasons for not hammering people without giving them a change to comment.

I disagree completely with joth.

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #268 on: September 24, 2014, 06:15:08 pm »

I agree with "sometimes you just got to go for it". I disagree with this being one of those times, or it ever being ok not to make sure you aren't accidentally hammering before voting.
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ashersky

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #269 on: September 24, 2014, 06:22:09 pm »

That was a lot overnight.

I'd say that I actually got a bit of a towny read on Ichi's reaction, but then that's tempered by the points being made.  I'd be angry if I thought I was lynched in that manner, too.

He's definitely in the lynch pool, but we do have time to continue discussing stuff.
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ashersky

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #270 on: September 24, 2014, 06:22:39 pm »

I will say, there were a few instances of SK hunting, which is uber scummy.
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ashersky

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #271 on: September 24, 2014, 06:24:10 pm »

One thing to think about/discuss: the traitor mechanic.

So, with a split faction guaranteed, even if one side has knowledge, the other doesn't.  Generally speaking (as I've played/modded multiple), I think the single scum that doesn't know his partners is the more dangerous of the group -- he's usually going to be a bit on the scummier side (to try to not get NKed) and may actually reverse scumhunt.

I actually think Traitor hunting is a thing.
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Hydrad

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #272 on: September 24, 2014, 06:26:28 pm »

For the traitor I thought scum would try to hit them so that they are on a team? Or is that not powerful enough to lose a night kill I guess.
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ashersky

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #273 on: September 24, 2014, 06:42:27 pm »

For the traitor I thought scum would try to hit them so that they are on a team? Or is that not powerful enough to lose a night kill I guess.

I'd say getting kills through is more important.

I think the best example ever of a traitor was yuma in RMM5.  I was scum there (my first scum win and MVP, I think), and so was he.  But we didn't know he existed, at all.  He claimed scum at some point, really caused a lot of havok.  It was awesome.
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: Mafia 51: Silo (Wool) Mafia - Day1 Start - PM for speccy
« Reply #274 on: September 24, 2014, 07:55:17 pm »

I will say, there were a few instances of SK hunting, which is uber scummy.
Note that ADK was the one SK hunting and I even noted that. Right here.

I find this a little odd, since it's like SK hunting--but I think ADK's theory makes the most sense so far.

Joth, I agree to an extent, but what if Ichi had been a powerful role? There are valid reasons for not hammering people without giving them a change to comment.

I disagree completely with joth.
I too completely disagree with joth saying that derphammers or hammering someone when 2 players haven't even posted is a good idea. And I find his play so far to be quite scummy. Like why even try to argue that, all it does is give scum a free pass.

Ichi, it's a bit problematic your reads seem all over the place. It kills some of your credibility you call everyone who suspects you obvious scum that. Just try to see it this way: More people voted for you than there are scum. Some of them are town. Try to address your points to them.

No you're right. And this was something that I was considering during my absence. I still maintain that some people on my wagon joined in incredibly scummy ways, but of course some people on my wagon are town. So in terms of my defensive meta or whatever, it's obviously not good that town is voting me--because if they have legitimate reason to, then that means scum has an easier time of mislynching me and getting away with it because "he was so scummy".

If I were to focus on who I find scummiest right now. I would list ADK, joth, and faust as my top scum reads. More later.
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