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[ashersky]

Why no kill last night?

[faust]

Why no kill last night?

There were 4 alive. I could have killed you, but then (if successful) town would almost certainly have lynched me. I could have killed one of WW/Jimmmmmm, but if you killed the other one, you'd win instantly. I thought if you still had your Strongman, I should wait until you used it - if you decided to use it on me, there was no way for me to win anyway. If you don't have Strongman, well, I would have won pretty much instantly, assuming WW/Jimmmmm don't kingmake you.

[ashersky]

If it was you/me/WW/Jimmmmm, were you so certain you could convince them?  Or would you have pushed for a No Lynch?

Because wasn't WW pushing you over Eevee?  At best it was split 2/2, so we go No Lynch and do it over.  If you had shot me last night, I would have lost my strongman and you would have won for sure.

[faust]

If it was you/me/WW/Jimmmmm, were you so certain you could convince them?  Or would you have pushed for a No Lynch?

Because wasn't WW pushing you over Eevee?  At best it was split 2/2, so we go No Lynch and do it over.  If you had shot me last night, I would have lost my strongman and you would have won for sure.

Yeah, I was aiming for no lynch, since town couldn't win anyway.

Also, I wasn't aware of the exact mechanics of your role (e wouldn't tell me). And well, I thought your BP was already used up in N2.

[faust]

Sorry Eevee, for thinking you were mafia.  You really did paint yourself into that corner though.  If I had listened to you on faust, the game might have ended sooner.

Well, noone can really blame you for thinking Eevee was mafia... even I thought he was for quite some time, and I was mafia myself!

[Eevee]

Sorry Eevee, for thinking you were mafia.  You really did paint yourself into that corner though.  If I had listened to you on faust, the game might have ended sooner.

Well, noone can really blame you for thinking Eevee was mafia... even I thought he was for quite some time, and I was mafia myself!

How did I paint myself in that corner, though?

[silverspawn]

mh :c  I really wanted to win this game

I think modkilling Jimmmm was correct, because you announced it. If anything, you could have given him more time as you announced it.

The biggest surprise was that Eevee was town. Wow. I was so sure you were scum/SK.

[ashersky]

Sorry Eevee, for thinking you were mafia.  You really did paint yourself into that corner though.  If I had listened to you on faust, the game might have ended sooner.

Well, noone can really blame you for thinking Eevee was mafia... even I thought he was for quite some time, and I was mafia myself!

How did I paint myself in that corner, though?

For me, the way you defended Hydrad was just too damning.  There were a few things that semi-cleared you moving forward, I think, but I felt like the actions weren't great.

You were townier by the end, but faust hadn't really given me any scum vibes other than his odd defense of the traitor and disbelief of silverspawn.

I mean, I shouldn't be sorry -- I was opposing you in the game.  But I still felt bad.

[silverspawn]

so much for preventing 3 kills, according to the night actions, I didn't prevent a single one  ash, not shooting twice in a row was an interesting decision.

[silverspawn]

Jimmmm, which player were you going to shoot? if it was ww anyway, we don't have to be bothered as much.

[Eevee]

I maintain that vehemently defending someone like I did is more often town that is gravely mistaken and deflecting into any competing wagons like faust did is partner worried.

It's on me I couldn't argue it convincingly enough of course. Seems like everyone thought I was scum.

[faust]

Sorry Eevee, for thinking you were mafia.  You really did paint yourself into that corner though.  If I had listened to you on faust, the game might have ended sooner.

Well, noone can really blame you for thinking Eevee was mafia... even I thought he was for quite some time, and I was mafia myself!

How did I paint myself in that corner, though?

I guess you having me and Hydrad of all people as your top town reads on D1 convinced me you probably know we're your partners.

[Witherweaver]

I still feel this was unfair.

Also, I don't think Town played this game poorly (someone said something like that in the speccy).  XP lynch was obviously bad.  But we got Hydrad, then Ichi.  Eevee vs. Faust really was a challenge.  Faust felt like Mafia but there was a lot of evidence against Eevee.  Ultimately I should have pushed the Faust lynch, though I didn't really know how to make an argument other than "I think so", and I was wrestling with it myself.  I think we caught a break the last night, though, and probably would have won.

Jimmmm, were you going to vote me or Ash?

[Witherweaver]

so much for preventing 3 kills, according to the night actions, I didn't prevent a single one  ash, not shooting twice in a row was an interesting decision.

Funny how I kept asking everyone if they would choose not to shoot any nights and like no one answered except Faust, who insisted the SK would always shoot.  (He's also the only one that could deduce that the SK did not shoot, since he shot Ash Night 2.)

[jotheonah]

Well add me to the list of people frustrated by the ending. But also, we could point to this as a reason to lynch lurkers for the rest of time, so there's that.


ash, masterfully played. you're pretty good at this game.

[Witherweaver]

I don't even understand why he would even think he needs to keep posting.  There really should have been a warning.  I got a prod for this game and was pretty confused... my initial thought was "There's nothing left to do but wait, why do I need to keep posting?"  I also wondered if keeping posting and digging through things that I thought indicated Ash was SK would make me look better or worse.  Plus, I think the conversations between Ash and myself were causing more confusion than enlightenment.

I think this was entirely the wrong call.

But maybe we should invoke a universal lynch all lurkers rule on the forum.  We always end up arguing out of it (I'm generally one that argues against it), and it's caused trouble (for one faction or another) multiple times.

[ashersky]

I was also prodded.

Jimmmmm was prodded an extra time, despite the public warning in thread, so I think that would count as the "extra" warning.

Your point about whether posting more might incriminate you is a good point -- I felt exactly the same way, as I was the bad guy.  I wanted to go on a full court press, but I thought Jimmmmm would just think that was me trying to deflect.  I did it as scum and Jimmmmm's partner in Super Mario where I must have posted a million times on the last day, and I thought he'd see that.

I think this discussion/argument is actually two: the specifics of this game, which cannot be changed at this point, and the overall future action for us.

I think that we have to start with an assumption: that excessive lurking (to be defined) negatively affects mafia games.  It's written into the Golden Rule in the rules posts of games, for example.

In this particular game, Jimmmmm had a definitely pattern of excessive lurking, to the point of multiple prods all game.  I don't think anyone can argue against that.  I do think it negatively affected the game, especially at the end (which is counter to WW's point).  I had to weigh the risk of posting to keep the game going with being caught; WW didn't have that.  It disadvantaged me.  Now, town would say they want to disadvantage the SK.  And I'm sure there's a way to do that.  I'd suggest even a small daily post with "well ash?" would be plenty to have forced me to post more and possibly outed myself.

Mafia is a game.  If we were playing Dominion and I played a Militia, making everyone wait two days before you decide what you discard would be cause for booting you from the game.  Maybe not the first time you do it, but definitely the third or more.  What lurking in this game did was hold everyone else, including spectators, up from enjoying the game.

As for WW's point about not needing to post anymore, I disagree.  The game was actively going on, while it slows down with less players, it shouldn't just end and be a game of solitaire.  The game is for everyone who signed up.  So activity rules should apply on all days.

Instead, maybe shorter days as the population gets smaller.  I don't see a need for more than 3 IRL days at LYLO.  If the game thread is 200 pages long, maybe longer.

On the second argument, about the way we handle this in the future -- I'd default to "it's up to the mod" in these cases.  I think the mod needs to make it clear in the rules, which I believe yuma did.  We always write "up to modkill" in the rules.

I can say that when I next mod, I will make it as explicit as possible.

[ashersky]

Well add me to the list of people frustrated by the ending. But also, we could point to this as a reason to lynch lurkers for the rest of time, so there's that.


ash, masterfully played. you're pretty good at this game.

Thanks, man.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Look silver. It's obvious you have something to say to me. Why not just say it? Why play games and try to draw this out further?
If you just want to ignore me that's fine. You obviously have no obligation to respond if you don't want to. However, you have stated that you are going to respond--along with some semi-ominous qualifying statement.

I'm not going to stop playing Mafia--and I don't see you stopping either. So let's get everything out on the table.

[silverspawn]

Look silver. It's obvious you have something to say to me. Why not just say it? Why play games and try to draw this out further?
If you just want to ignore me that's fine. You obviously have no obligation to respond if you don't want to. However, you have stated that you are going to respond--along with some semi-ominous qualifying statement.

I'm not going to stop playing Mafia--and I don't see you stopping either. So let's get everything out on the table.

ahm, I didn't think one or two days mattered. and I'm certainly not doing it now, because I'll go to sleep in a few minutes. I'm not stalling for dramatic effect, I just didn't feel like answering it yet, and, as I sad, didn't think that a small delay would make any difference. I'll get to the answer. just wait, and then at some point, it'll be there.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Look silver. It's obvious you have something to say to me. Why not just say it? Why play games and try to draw this out further?
If you just want to ignore me that's fine. You obviously have no obligation to respond if you don't want to. However, you have stated that you are going to respond--along with some semi-ominous qualifying statement.

I'm not going to stop playing Mafia--and I don't see you stopping either. So let's get everything out on the table.

ahm, I didn't think one or two days mattered. and I'm certainly not doing it now, because I'll go to sleep in a few minutes. I'm not stalling for dramatic effect, I just didn't feel like answering it yet, and, as I sad, didn't think that a small delay would make any difference. I'll get to the answer. just wait, and then at some point, it'll be there.

That's fine. I can be patient. I just hope you understand how it's discourteous to provide some ominous hints about what you're going to say and then stall.

[silverspawn]

Okay, let's do this. What are the accusations?

Hey silver,

Just wanted to say I hope there's no hard feelings about this last game, now that we're both dead. At the time, I did feel that some of the statements you made were out of line, but time and distance help put them in perspective. At any rate, it should be a given that players are not attacking each other on a personal level--so posts should not be made or interpreted to that effect unless it is glaringly obvious that they are intended to offend.

I don't harbor any ill will against you, and I have confidence that we can get along well in future games.

Basically, the argument is that I stepped out of line of the civility pledge. Well, as I said before in the thread, I'm not that interested in the civility pledge, because I feel like how much a comment hurts someone (and that's what it's about, right?) has very little to do with whether or not it's fine according to the pledge. The post that hurt me most in mafia so far was teproc saying somthing like "you're good at rereading, good job", which is nowhere near overstepping the pledge.

Still, let's look at it:

-- That said, all players are required to treat each other in a civil manner. What does this mean? Your criticisms of other players should not rise to the level of personal attacks. At the same time, you should assume other players' criticisms of you are not intended as personal attacks. In practice, remember that it is just a game, and though a player may be lying to you and distorting every word you say, that player is not an evil person outside of the context of the game. By the same token, if someone accuses you of lying and distorting every word he says, you should not assume that that player is accusing you of being evil outside of the context of this game.

-- In this spirit, choose your words considerately. Strong language may be required to express strong arguments--and no one wants to limit the strategic landscape of the game by policing speech--but please be reasonable. Everyone who is a member of this community can provide examples of debates that were appropriately colorful and heated, as well as a few instances that went over the line. We don't want anyone to sour on playing games with us because the language and the tone became personal, offensive, aggressive, etc. Don't do that.

This is very loosely formulated, so you could easily make arguments for both sides. e doesn't seem to think that I stepped over the pledge, because he modded it and didn't interfere (and he made this post, which to me sounds more like he thought your behavior was inappropriate).

So, because the pledge is so vague, I'm not going to dig more into that. I have no idea if I overstepped the pledge, I don't think there is a clear answer, and I don't really care anyway.

What I do care about is whether or not my posts where morally justified, so I'll try to figure that out. This was the first conversation:

I guess I'll wait and see what others whom I find townier think. Letting silver get away with this is simply unbelievable. I'm sure you'll lynch him after my flip, but you'll be down town a strong town PR (admittedly less strong later in the game). Also, now that you've decided that either me or silver is scum, who do you think each of our partner's would be?

Oh man, suck it up. I made a strategic decision to fake a non-PR. This argument is not even good if you accept that it's policy. If you can't handle this kind of thing, don't play mafia.

I find the tone of this post unnecessarily hostile.
Considering that you lied, it's pretty obvious that you don't understand how that is a horrible thing to do as town. It doesn't matter that you think it worked out for you. I guessed correctly what you were doing right away, and if I was scum, I would have killed you N1.

if you think I'm scum, you can vote for me. but if I'm town, then I have kept a PR hidden until day3, and I've stopped possibly 3 of 4 kills. If you think that's a "horrible thing to do as town", then I can only repeat what I said in my last post. Ash said a similar thing, I gave him a similar response. I'm not being any more nice to you, and I don't know why you expected that.

Honestly, I think you were just making an incredibly weak argument. What you were saying is, "I don't like the way he plays, we should lynch him for playing like that". This argument... dunno, it's just really, really weak. It's hard for me to even explain why it's weak, because you just say "A so B" when there is no reason why B should follow out of A. You didn't say why me lying is a bad thing.

So, my response was very harsh, mostly because we were playing a game of mafia and appearing confident was what gave people a town read on me, because I'm not that confident as scum. But I think such a weak argument deserves a hostile response, so again, I think it was justified. I could have dropped the introduction "Oh man, suck it up." and leave the rest of the post as is (but again, I wanted to act confident). This is certainly the closest-to-the-edge post that I've made.

Your reply was, in my opinion, even weaker. Specifically with this line: "Considering that you lied, it's pretty obvious that you don't understand how that is a horrible thing to do as town. It doesn't matter that you think it worked out for you."

This is like saying "I don't care about facts, I have norms." Actually, that's exactly what you're saying.

So, let me make this very clear, because I honestly think you still think otherwise: lying as town is not objectively bad. It is impossible to argue that a certain style of playing is objectively bad, because there is no objective measurement. And because it is impossible, all you have as a basis is this game, where it worked perfectly. So... yeah. If you want to argue against lying, you could say things like "it usually turns out bad for town" or "most good players agree that it's bad." In fact, this is exactly what Eevee did. I have a response for that too, but I don't need it, because you didn't make that argument.

Oh and in addition to all of that, ash already attacked me for lying, and I already gave him a hostile response. You do the exact same thing. Attacking me for that again is like begging for a hostile response.

so tl;dr the only regret there is the "suck it up". aside from that, I think I answered your posts just fine. I would do it very similarly if it happened again.

Unfortunately, I think the next part is even more one sided.

There was this:

Could you elaborate on the bolded part?

it basically means, I really dislike what jimmm is doing, and everything in me says "LYNCH HIM!", but that should not be what my decision is based on.

What have I done that you dislike?

a lot. man, it starts with the fact that you're painting yourself as the innocent one, which, in my opinion, is just absurd after your discussion with ash. but it really wouldn't be a good idea if i list every reason now. I don't like you. it's best to leave it at that. I'm trying not to let that influence my vote.

You know what, it's so, so unfair to say that you don't like how I play and you don't like me, but you won't tell me why. I'm guilty for what? Quoting ash without  keeping the whole quote in? Not being okay with him accusing me of personally attacking him?

phone posting.  no one hammer right away please. I'll be home and at my computer within the hour.

EVERYONE CHILL OUT!

seriously, there has definitely been some stuff that I think violates civility--and not from Jimmmmm either.  it looks like he and ash are good now, but now silver's starting in again.

it's OK not to try and have the last word guys.

Let me summarize that.
someone: could you explain in detail about what you meant here?
silver: I meant that I don't like Jimmm, and I'm trying to not let that influence my vote
jimmm: why don't you like me
silver: for example because X and Y but I shouldn't explain this in more detail
jimmm: not explaining it in detail is very unfair towards me
silver: *long post explaining it in detail*
Ichi: everything was okay and now silver thinks he has to start an argument again, because he wants to have the last word

what I did there was complying with an implicit request from Jimmm. honestly, I think your respose was more inappropriate than anything I have posted this whole game. Why were you saying "now silver's starting it again" when all I did was comply with a request. that's... ... !!

After I made the post, even Jimmm said: "I really appreciate it. We disagree on a fair bit, but that is so much better than simply saying you don't like me and leaving it at that." so it's obvious that he didn't have a problem with it, noone else had a problem with it, there is really no reason why anyone would, so I don't get why you did.

the only thing I think was bad about my post there was that I basically said "you shouldn't ask me to do this." That was stupid, he has the right to ask for that. but, you didn't complain about that part, so I guess it doesn't even matter.

you then continued to drop little hints at how BM you think I was this game which I'm not going to list, and as if that wasn't enough already, you even thought it was necessary to say again that you really think I was BM after your flip, and didn't just argue for alignment reasons.

overall, from the perspective of the civil pledge, you certainly had cleaner posts, but from a moral perspective, I think I had better posts. I'm not sure if that really answers your question or if your question was more like "do you think we can get along in future games," but because I think I acted fine, the answer to these kinds of questions is pretty trivial. I have no idea if we will get along, but I have no intentions of altering my playstyle regarding mannerism in any way, and I think that a lot of stuff you said was not okay, but heh whatever, I think a lot of stuff that a lot of people are doing is not okay, like eating meat every day, and I just have to live with that. I'll be able to live with you too. Generally, I even enjoy heated arguments in mafia.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And you thought this post would offend me? I'm fine with what you have to say. Sure, you misconstrue my words a fair bit, but that's expected. I explicitly admitted that lying as town is not universally bad and stated that I even considered doing it myself. So nope, I'm not as bound to "norms" or whatever as you think I am.

I can admit to being passive-aggressive regarding some of the posts that I mentioned. Really the only thing I took issue with was you suggesting I quit the game. That statement in no ways follows from the post you quoted and is completely unjusitified. To be clear (I thought I already said this). I was not making an argument. I was just saying (obv. lying because I was scum) that I thought you were scum and you were lying and that I would be annoyed if they let you live after admitting to lying. That's all. It's a fabricated opinion, not an argument.

Blah blah blah. I have no expectations for you to change your playstyle. If I feel that you're overstepping civility in the future, I'll say something. Yes, you are correct that e's statement seems to be directed to me-- however, I will not apologize for feeling the way I did about the things you said to me. And obviously, I am not the only one to feel that you sometimes step over the line.

There are ways of getting your points across without being offensive. I have absolutely no problem with anyone saying that I made a weak argument or criticizing points I made or pointing out flaws in my reasoning. That's what this game is about. However, you have admitted to using hostility as a way to "punish" people or whatever, so that's whatever.

I likely won't be offended by you in the future, since I understand your playstyle and personality a lot better now. Hostile statements coming from you will carry different weight because of the source.

Summary

1. I can admit that you weren't out of civility in what you said in this game.
2. However, that does not mean that your statements weren't in a gray area.
3. You clearly misconstrue a lot of what I said in your previous post.
4. I can admit to being out of line as well as being passive-aggressive.
5. We move forward and just have fun playing Mafia!

[AndrewisFTTW]

I agree with e's decision that nobody mention the Civility Pledge in thread but rather if someone is personally offended a PM should be sent to the mod. I've been accused of violating the Civility Pledge and it seriously pissed me off as I'm sure it would anybody. For one thing, I don't think anyone here really goes out of their way to make things personal. Some things people say can be interpreted different ways and maybe sometimes the specific wording one uses doesn't make the player's true intentions clear. The lack of body language and tone is huge. I could go on but I think we all know all of this already. There will always be things we all regret saying and clarifying in the middle of a game might not always work out the way you want it to. But the important lesson (and maybe this should be included in the rules from now on) is that accusing someone of violating the pledge can often grind a game to a halt and a mod should be notified if you absolutely feel someone has gone too far.

[Witherweaver]

Can we repeal the modkill to an official judicial board?