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Author Topic: Gain a Peddler  (Read 23936 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2014, 12:18:41 pm »
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Technically, it uses the existing rule that cards can be gained from outside the supply by specifying their origin - "gain a Peddler from the Peddler pile" should work the same way as "gain a Madman from the Madman pile" when Peddler isn't in the supply.
I'm aware of that. the post that my post was directed to did not include the "from the XX pile" part. and to address this also, I think it's even worse, because it requires you to have another expansion. I don't have a single card in my expansion that even references a card that's not in its own set or in the base set is one of the base cards, much less require you to have it, and LF also doesn't have a single one in his.

and, again, gain a 5$ card for 5$ is plenty strong. you don't need to make it cheaper.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 12:34:34 pm by silverspawn »
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soulnet

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2014, 12:26:19 pm »
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Technically, it uses the existing rule that cards can be gained from outside the supply by specifying their origin - "gain a Peddler from the Peddler pile" should work the same way as "gain a Madman from the Madman pile" when Peddler isn't in the supply.
I'm aware of that. the post that my post was directed to did not include the "from the XX pile" part. and to address this also, I think it's even worse, because it requires you to have another expansion. I don't have a single card in my expansion that even references a card that's not in its own set or in the base set, much less require you to have it, and LF also doesn't have a single one in his.

and, again, gain a 5$ card for 5$ is plenty strong. you don't need to make it cheaper.

The base set is not a requirement to play Dominion. You can play with Intrigue alone.
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Holger

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2014, 12:32:14 pm »
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Technically, it uses the existing rule that cards can be gained from outside the supply by specifying their origin - "gain a Peddler from the Peddler pile" should work the same way as "gain a Madman from the Madman pile" when Peddler isn't in the supply.
I'm aware of that. the post that my post was directed to did not include the "from the XX pile" part. and to address this also, I think it's even worse, because it requires you to have another expansion. I don't have a single card in my expansion that even references a card that's not in its own set or in the base set, much less require you to have it, and LF also doesn't have a single one in his.

The post you quoted did use the "from the Peddler pile" wording in the explicit card suggested, as does the OP; it was only missing in the "colloquial" discussion of potential other cards.
Referencing other expansions is a problem in official expansions (and therefore never done), but you can just declare this as a "Prosperity fan card" instead of a Dominion fan card...  :P
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silverspawn

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2014, 12:33:48 pm »
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well yea, i meant base cards, as in the 3 basic treasures, the 3 basic victory cards, and curses. i don't have any card that references a kingdom card from the base set, but "base set" was of course misleading.

Awaclus

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2014, 04:37:59 pm »
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Probably, yes.  :P It's clearly weaker than Sea Hag, and the difference between $1 and $4 doesn't matter much since you usually won't buy more than two. A Witch with only a +1 card bonus would certainly work at $3 in terms of card balance; its only problem is the ugly slog games it could cause.
It's weaker than Sea Hag, but it's not that much weaker than Sea Hag. Sometimes Hag just discards an Estate or a Curse, and then it's basically the same thing. A Witch with only a +1 card bonus is almost equal to Sea Hag in terms of power — Sea Hag replaces one random card in your opponent's next hand with a Curse and one random card in your current hand with itself, the +1 Card Witch doesn't. Sea Hag is less good with Thrones, but sometimes causes an unwanted reshuffle, and if it skips over a good card for your opponent, he loses it that shuffle, but for you it's just slightly delayed. So it's maybe slightly worse than Sea Hag, but certainly not enough to justify being $3 when Young Witch is more significantly worse than Sea Hag and still powerful at $4.
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market squire

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2014, 04:30:33 am »
0

What do you think of my Reaction version? I've put some thought in there - if you really want, here is the extra pile version of it:

Kontor (Action-Reaction) $5
Gain a Pedlar from the Pedlar pile. Play it.
____________________________
When a player plays a Pedlar, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, put it on the Pedlar pile.

Pedlar (Action) 0*
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
(This is not in the Supply.)
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Holger

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2014, 06:44:42 am »
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Probably, yes.  :P It's clearly weaker than Sea Hag, and the difference between $1 and $4 doesn't matter much since you usually won't buy more than two. A Witch with only a +1 card bonus would certainly work at $3 in terms of card balance; its only problem is the ugly slog games it could cause.
It's weaker than Sea Hag, but it's not that much weaker than Sea Hag. Sometimes Hag just discards an Estate or a Curse, and then it's basically the same thing. A Witch with only a +1 card bonus is almost equal to Sea Hag in terms of power — Sea Hag replaces one random card in your opponent's next hand with a Curse and one random card in your current hand with itself, the +1 Card Witch doesn't. Sea Hag is less good with Thrones, but sometimes causes an unwanted reshuffle, and if it skips over a good card for your opponent, he loses it that shuffle, but for you it's just slightly delayed. So it's maybe slightly worse than Sea Hag, but certainly not enough to justify being $3 when Young Witch is more significantly worse than Sea Hag and still powerful at $4.

Compared to Sea Hag, the +1 Card Witch has the disadvantage of replacing itself with a terminally drawn card, while not hurting the opponent's hand. I don't see it as clearly worse than Young Witch - you usually have one or two bad cards to discard in the early game, and buying a Bane is often not worth it in 2p. But Young Witch would probably also work at $3; I think it'd still be weaker at $3 than the original Witch is at $5, and usually weaker than Ambassador.
I'd rather compare this with Masquerade, which is essentially an anti-"+1 Card Witch" since it also keeps your hand at the same size (when trashing) and "removes" one junk card out of every player's deck when compared to playing +1 Card Witch instead. Masqerade does this as long as one has a trash target (which is usually about as long as a Witch still has curses to give), and doesn't become dead afterwards, but is still a vanilla Moat with the potential to annoy opponents. So I'd say +1 Card Witch is slightly weaker than Masquerade, which does cost $3.
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Awaclus

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2014, 06:51:06 am »
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Probably, yes.  :P It's clearly weaker than Sea Hag, and the difference between $1 and $4 doesn't matter much since you usually won't buy more than two. A Witch with only a +1 card bonus would certainly work at $3 in terms of card balance; its only problem is the ugly slog games it could cause.
It's weaker than Sea Hag, but it's not that much weaker than Sea Hag. Sometimes Hag just discards an Estate or a Curse, and then it's basically the same thing. A Witch with only a +1 card bonus is almost equal to Sea Hag in terms of power — Sea Hag replaces one random card in your opponent's next hand with a Curse and one random card in your current hand with itself, the +1 Card Witch doesn't. Sea Hag is less good with Thrones, but sometimes causes an unwanted reshuffle, and if it skips over a good card for your opponent, he loses it that shuffle, but for you it's just slightly delayed. So it's maybe slightly worse than Sea Hag, but certainly not enough to justify being $3 when Young Witch is more significantly worse than Sea Hag and still powerful at $4.

Compared to Sea Hag, the +1 Card Witch has the disadvantage of replacing itself with a terminally drawn card, while not hurting the opponent's hand. I don't see it as clearly worse than Young Witch - you usually have one or two bad cards to discard in the early game, and buying a Bane is often not worth it in 2p. But Young Witch would probably also work at $3; I think it'd still be weaker at $3 than the original Witch is at $5, and usually weaker than Ambassador.
I'd rather compare this with Masquerade, which is essentially an anti-"+1 Card Witch" since it also keeps your hand at the same size (when trashing) and "removes" one junk card out of every player's deck when compared to playing +1 Card Witch instead. Masqerade does this as long as one has a trash target (which is usually about as long as a Witch still has curses to give), and doesn't become dead afterwards, but is still a vanilla Moat with the potential to annoy opponents. So I'd say +1 Card Witch is slightly weaker than Masquerade, which does cost $3.
Trashing is cheaper than junking anyway. Dealing out 4 Curses by discarding your hand for $2 would be stupidly powerful.
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Holger

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2014, 06:52:01 am »
+1

What do you think of my Reaction version? I've put some thought in there - if you really want, here is the extra pile version of it:

Kontor (Action-Reaction) $5
Gain a Pedlar from the Pedlar pile. Play it.
____________________________
When a player plays a Pedlar, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, put it on the Pedlar pile.

Pedlar (Action) 0*
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
(This is not in the Supply.)

The first thing I wanted to say is "You've mis-spelled Peddler" :P  Is "Pedlar" an actual word?

Buying this card would effectively force your opponents to reciprocate, since otherwise you get the whole Pedlar pile without risk of losing them. This need not be a bad thing, but it also seems very strong to me, since being a Peddler/Pedlar at play is much better than +2 cards. Now it practically becomes a Grand Market upon second play, and even better afterwards, unless you lose the Pedlars again.
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Holger

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2014, 07:02:01 am »
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Probably, yes.  :P It's clearly weaker than Sea Hag, and the difference between $1 and $4 doesn't matter much since you usually won't buy more than two. A Witch with only a +1 card bonus would certainly work at $3 in terms of card balance; its only problem is the ugly slog games it could cause.
It's weaker than Sea Hag, but it's not that much weaker than Sea Hag. Sometimes Hag just discards an Estate or a Curse, and then it's basically the same thing. A Witch with only a +1 card bonus is almost equal to Sea Hag in terms of power — Sea Hag replaces one random card in your opponent's next hand with a Curse and one random card in your current hand with itself, the +1 Card Witch doesn't. Sea Hag is less good with Thrones, but sometimes causes an unwanted reshuffle, and if it skips over a good card for your opponent, he loses it that shuffle, but for you it's just slightly delayed. So it's maybe slightly worse than Sea Hag, but certainly not enough to justify being $3 when Young Witch is more significantly worse than Sea Hag and still powerful at $4.

Compared to Sea Hag, the +1 Card Witch has the disadvantage of replacing itself with a terminally drawn card, while not hurting the opponent's hand. I don't see it as clearly worse than Young Witch - you usually have one or two bad cards to discard in the early game, and buying a Bane is often not worth it in 2p. But Young Witch would probably also work at $3; I think it'd still be weaker at $3 than the original Witch is at $5, and usually weaker than Ambassador.
I'd rather compare this with Masquerade, which is essentially an anti-"+1 Card Witch" since it also keeps your hand at the same size (when trashing) and "removes" one junk card out of every player's deck when compared to playing +1 Card Witch instead. Masqerade does this as long as one has a trash target (which is usually about as long as a Witch still has curses to give), and doesn't become dead afterwards, but is still a vanilla Moat with the potential to annoy opponents. So I'd say +1 Card Witch is slightly weaker than Masquerade, which does cost $3.
Trashing is cheaper than junking anyway. Dealing out 4 Curses by discarding your hand for $2 would be stupidly powerful.

Right. But arguably Chapel is "stupidly powerful" itself, it could easily cost $5...
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Davio

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2014, 07:39:18 am »
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No, it can't.

Since you rarely want more than one Chapel, it's fine making it cost $2 so that both players can grab it if they want.
The only problem with it costing $2 is that you can pair it with a strong $5 like Mountebank.

Maybe it would have been better at $3 so one guy opens Silver/Chapel and the other opens Mountebank/- and they both could have a decent chance.
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Holger

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2014, 08:58:05 am »
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No, it can't.

Since you rarely want more than one Chapel, it's fine making it cost $2 so that both players can grab it if they want.
The only problem with it costing $2 is that you can pair it with a strong $5 like Mountebank.

Maybe it would have been better at $3 so one guy opens Silver/Chapel and the other opens Mountebank/- and they both could have a decent chance.


I agree that Chapel is fine at $2 (or $3) for the reasons you state, but that doesn't mean it couldn't work at other costs. Why can't it cost $5? Forge costs $7 and is not that much stronger. Usually when you open e.g. Chapel/Witch and they collide, you prefer playing Chapel, implying that it's actually stronger than Witch even when ignoring costs. You could argue that Chapel is too strong to cost $5 (giving too much of an advantage to a 2/5 opening), but that would rather speak for a $6 cost than a lower one. And the $2 cost already gives a massive advantage to a 2/5 opening, as you say.

(Note that I'm only talking in terms of the card's power level, not what makes the game most fun. I do enjoy the "insane" games that $2 Chapel allows for.)
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silverspawn

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2014, 09:01:45 am »
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Quote
(Note that I'm only talking in terms of the card's power level, not what makes the game most fun. I do enjoy the "insane" games that $2 Chapel allows for.)
and this is the answer to your question, as i said before, you should never balance cards for powerlevel, but always for what makes the game most fun. if the cards stack, this is often the same/similar, but in case of chapel, it's two very different things.

Holger

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2014, 10:11:20 am »
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(Note that I'm only talking in terms of the card's power level, not what makes the game most fun. I do enjoy the "insane" games that $2 Chapel allows for.)
and this is the answer to your question, as i said before, you should never balance cards for powerlevel, but always for what makes the game most fun. if the cards stack, this is often the same/similar, but in case of chapel, it's two very different things.

In principle that's right, but the problem is that everyone has a different opinion of what is fun; many players  hate(d) Chapel for being overpowered. Donald usually tries to make cards both balanced and fun; Chapel is the only intentional exception, I think.
And my discussion with Awaclus was about card strength, not fun games. Obviously Chapel is much more fun at $2 than his "anti-Chapel" would be, although they have a similar power level.
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Davio

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2014, 10:15:21 am »
+1

I found that the assumption that a card's power level is always directly related to its cost is a false one.

A card's cost only functions to limit its availability.
The reason King's Court costs $7 is to make it harder to get a bunch of them easily.

There is a relation to the card's power, but it's an oversimplification to say: This card is super powerful, it should cost at least $X.
Especially if you're only ever getting one copy of it.

And even if you want multiple copies, you still have to be careful with pricing if you only look at raw power.
Take Fool's Gold for example. Every FG other than the first provides more value than Gold! And just 2 FG's played provides more value than 2 Silvers. So maybe it should cost at least $3? Making it cost $3 makes it harder to get multiple copies, making it a less viable strategy and dropping its fun factor.

So in deciding on a price, you should look at it this way: If it's cheap, players can more easily get multiple copies of it. Is that a bad thing? If so, up the value. Allowing two players grab multiple Mountebanks early quickly turns a game into a slog hell. It's no big deal if a player wants two Chapels. It's not a bad thing if players get multiple Fool's Golds.

Also, there are only 3 effective price levels in Dominion.

The first level is $2-: Cards costing $2 (other than opening cards like Chapel, Pearl Diver for instance) just give you something to buy to not feel like your turn is wasted
The second level is $3/$4: Cards at this level are pretty much interchangeable. Masquerade and Ambassador could cost $4 and not much would change. It's so easy to hit $3 and $4 that you're often buying $3 cards with $4 to spend.
The third level is $5+: $5 is the level at which the "power cards" like Mountebank and Wharf are found. Anything above $5 like King's Court at $7 is in pretty much the same league, but just a bit better.

I find that the biggest gaps are between $2 and $3/$4 and between $3/$4 and $5.

So this is also something you can take into consideration when pricing a card.
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silverspawn

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2014, 10:39:24 am »
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the gap between 5$ and 6$ isn't that small, but aside from that, you're right.

Awaclus

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2014, 11:12:07 am »
+1

Obviously Chapel is much more fun at $2 than his "anti-Chapel" would be, although they have a similar power level.
But the anti-Chapel is more powerful. You have to actually collide the junk you want to trash with the trasher, that's not true for junkers. Also, junk piles run out of junk so you can buy the anti-Chapel in order to defend yourself against your opponent's anti-Chapel. Also, usually an engine can deal with the opening 10 if necessary, but 20 junk cards is usually too much, so getting rid of the opening cards isn't as powerful as giving your opponent another 10 junk cards. Also, by trashing the Coppers in your deck, you improve your economy less than you hurt your opponent's economy by giving him Curses.
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Davio

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2014, 02:50:00 am »
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the gap between 5$ and 6$ isn't that small, but aside from that, you're right.
Well, I often find myself buying $5 cards with $6. Also, there aren't many action cards costing $6, only Goons, Hunting Grounds, Adventurer, (Nobles), (Grand Market), (Border Village) and Altar.  Sure, the difference between Silver at $5 and Gold at $6 can be huge, but if there are good $5's around, having one of them over Gold isn't that horrible.
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silverspawn

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2014, 06:17:56 am »
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the gap between 5$ and 6$ isn't that small, but aside from that, you're right.
Well, I often find myself buying $5 cards with $6. Also, there aren't many action cards costing $6, only Goons, Hunting Grounds, Adventurer, (Nobles), (Grand Market), (Border Village) and Altar.  Sure, the difference between Silver at $5 and Gold at $6 can be huge, but if there are good $5's around, having one of them over Gold isn't that horrible.

you often buy 5$ with 6$. but it's more difficult to reach 6$, which, I think, is the crucial point. Alter, for example, would be silly at 5$.

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2014, 06:47:41 am »
0

Back to topic...

As others stated gain a Peddler is just too clunky, why not make it random, like (setup choose a card at random) gain that card, or gain a bane card!

Imagine gain a KC xD
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market squire

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2014, 11:17:31 am »
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School (Action) $3
Gain an education card from its pile.
If you don't, [xyz].
________________________
Setup: Determine a card costing $5 that is not in the supply. Cards from that pile are education cards.

What about:

School (Action) $4
Choose one: Gain an education card from its pile
or play an education card from your hand twice.
________________________
Setup: Determine a card costing $5 that is not in the supply. Cards from that pile are education cards.
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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2014, 11:28:10 am »
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Why not use the Young Witch mechanic and add a pile of education cards to the supply costing $5?
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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2014, 11:43:29 am »
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2 Grand Markets is essentially

+2 Actions
+2 Cards
Gain a Peddler.

So each Grand Market is like nonterminal Gain half a Peddler~.

(Edit: Or, you know, don't gain a Peddler and use the money and buys for something else.)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 11:44:38 am by Witherweaver »
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market squire

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2014, 11:45:58 am »
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Why not use the Young Witch mechanic and add a pile of education cards to the supply costing $5?
To make School more attractive, I guess. Gain a card that you can't buy normally is stronger than gaining one that you could have bought directly. The gaining doesn't work that often if the pile belongs to the regular supply. I'm afraid the card would become a dud, turning its effect in something like "replace this pile with a $5 cost pile."
On the other hand, adding the education cards to the supply sounds much more balanced.

2 Grand Markets is essentially

+2 Actions
+2 Cards
Gain a Peddler.

So each Grand Market is like nonterminal Gain half a Peddler~.

(Edit: Or, you know, don't gain a Peddler and use the money and buys for something else.)
QED  ;)
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Awaclus

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Re: Gain a Peddler
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2014, 12:50:44 pm »
+1

2 Grand Markets is essentially

+2 Actions
+2 Cards
Gain a Peddler.

So each Grand Market is like nonterminal Gain half a Peddler~.

(Edit: Or, you know, don't gain a Peddler and use the money and buys for something else.)
By that logic, Woodcutter is essentially a terminal gain an Estate.
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