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[market squire]

Hello!
I am wondering about the strength of "Gain a Peddler", which is, abstactly spoken, "add +$1 to your deck economy". Do you think that such an effect might be worth it?

My first try is this:

Kontor (Action) $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a Peddler from the Peddler pile.
_______________________
When you trash this, gain a Grand Market from the Grand Market pile.

Maybe it should rather be a terminal Action?

[Davio]

This is way too strong.

I think you are underestimating Peddler. Not only does it add $1, it does so with extra cycling and its $8 cost makes it a prime target for late trash for benefit cards.

Also, it has serious issues with requiring 2 other piles to be in the kingdom.

[market squire]

This is way too strong.

I think you are underestimating Peddler. Not only does it add $1, it does so with extra cycling and its $8 cost makes it a prime target for late trash for benefit cards.

Also, it has serious issues with requiring 2 other piles to be in the kingdom.

I compared it to Baker. Baker gives you a disappearing +$1 in a turn of your choice; this gives you a disappearing +$1 in every future shuffle. I don't know if Baker's timing choice is as strong as Kontor's consistency - maybe you are right and it is worse.
Again, maybe it should be terminating, like +2 Cards instead of the Cantrip.

The card does not require other piles in the kingdom. It says "from the Peddler pile", so Peddler doesn't need to be in the supply, same for Grand Market.

[KingZog3]

The card does not require other piles in the kingdom. It says "from the Peddler pile", so Peddler doesn't need to be in the supply, same for Grand Market.

It doesn require them to be in the kingdom, because otherwise it's a useless card. I will assume this is a thought exercise.

And yes Davio is right. This is really strong. Maybe not always my first $5 card, but I'd do my best to pick this up in almost any deck.

[Awaclus]

Not only does it add $1, it does so with extra cycling

It doesn't do so with extra cycling, though. It only gives you some more control over your shuffles (you might not want to play a Peddler every time, but if you didn't have the Peddler, then you can't choose not playing it).

[Drab Emordnilap]

In super general case, gaining a Peddler is like playing a Mine. Mine costs $5. I posit that

"Mein
Action

+$1
Gain a Peddler."

should cost $5 as well. (The dollar is the same dollar Mine gives you the turn you play it.)

[silverspawn]

it's not bad, but there are couple of differences. most importantly, "gain a peddler" works in a treasureless deck.

[Awaclus]

In super general case, gaining a Peddler is like playing a Mine. Mine costs $5. I posit that

"Mein
Action

+$1
Gain a Peddler."

should cost $5 as well. (The dollar is the same dollar Mine gives you the turn you play it.)

Though, Mine is very weak, and they are different enough that the gain a peddler version could be a bit stronger (Treasure cards can't be drawn dead).

[soulnet]

But there are only 10 Peddlers for everyone. Mine can keep gaining you $1 a turn after 10 plays. Especially with KC, 10 plays of a card you want early is not that much. If the Peddler pile is limited to 10 Peddlers, I would say the card is strange. If you get only 1, is fine. If each player gets one, is a bit weak. However, since each one you buy weakens all other players Kontor's as well, I would say getting the second one may be decent in 2p, but horrible in >2p. In any case, it seems like it would lead to a horrible game in which you race for Peddlers in an uninteresting way, and after the split everyone has a weak deck of Peddlers and do-nothing cantrips, so you have to restart.

The on-trash is absurdly strong if there is strong trashing and/or any engine potential. And quite swingy. I would gain a Gold or something like that.

[silverspawn]

well, I just wouldn't do more with the card than the thought experiment.

[market squire]

well, I just wouldn't do more with the card than the thought experiment.

Why not? At least I'd like to try fixing it.

The comparison to Mine is a very good point. The cantrip version is too strong.

The limit of 10 Peddlers is the reason for the on-trash effect. Okay, trashing isn't always available.

My brainstorm ideas to get around the problem:
- Add some way to put Peddlers back to their pile.
- Gaining a Peddler is only one choice, so that Kontor can be useful when Peddlers are empty.
- You choose between different $ cantrips (Oasis, Peddler, Market).

Kontor (Action) $5
+2 Cards
Gain a Peddler from the Peddler pile.
_______________________
In games using this, when you trash a Peddler, put it on the Peddler pile.

Kontor (Action) $5
Choose one:
Gain a Peddler from the Peddler pile
or return a Peddler from your hand to the Peddler pile. If you do, +$5 +1 buy.

Kontor (Action) $5
Choose one: Gain a Peddler from the Peddler pile; or +$2 +1 buy.

Kontor (Action) $5
Choose one:
Gain an Oasis from the Oasis pile and play it;
Gain a Peddler from the Peddler pile, putting it on top of your deck;
Gain a Market from the Market pile.

[silverspawn]

Why not? At least I'd like to try fixing it.

because

• it feels awkward
• it requires another kingdom card to be ingame. that's a completely new mechanic, and should probably not be done without a good reason.
• in peddler games, you often buy lots of cheap +buys to empty the pile, and then do so pretty quickly, which will just make your card useless
• the interaction with TfB is kind of silly
• the concept of "increase the money produced from your deck by 1$ for each time played" has already been done. by mine.

if anything, I'd make a new non-kingdomm card with "+1 card, +1 action, +1$" and price 0$, and reference that one. but then I'd say, that's not worth it for a mine-variant.

[Kirian]

In super general case, gaining a Peddler is like playing a Mine. Mine costs $5. I posit that

"Mtin
Action

+$1
Gain a Peddler."

should cost $5 as well. (The dollar is the same dollar Mine gives you the turn you play it.)

FTFY

[Holger]

well, I just wouldn't do more with the card than the thought experiment.

Why not? At least I'd like to try fixing it.

The comparison to Mine is a very good point. The cantrip version is too strong.

The limit of 10 Peddlers is the reason for the on-trash effect. Okay, trashing isn't always available.

My brainstorm ideas to get around the problem:
- Add some way to put Peddlers back to their pile.
- Gaining a Peddler is only one choice, so that Kontor can be useful when Peddlers are empty.
- You choose between different $ cantrips (Oasis, Peddler, Market).

Kontor (Action) $5
+2 Cards
Gain a Peddler from the Peddler pile.
_______________________
In games using this, when you trash a Peddler, put it on the Peddler pile.

This is still far stronger than Mine as long as the Peddlers last; +2 Cards is much better than +$1. If you ignore Peddler trashing for benefit, this is about as strong as Mine would be in Colony games if it was guaranteed to always collide with a Gold. In games without trashers, it might work as a strong $5 since the Peddlers will likely run out quickly due to several Kontors getting bought. But with TfB to recycle the Peddlers, this is far too strong, probably far better than Grand Market.
You can also compare Kontor with Workshop, since Peddler is as strong as a $4 card: Kontor draws two additional cards and combos with TfB, in exchange for non-flexibility. Usually adding +2 cards to a terminal card is enough to increase a card price by about $4 (Moat vs. Hunting Grounds). t with +1 Kontor could be balanced with only +1 Card...

[Awaclus]

Usually adding +2 cards to a terminal card is enough to increase a card price by about $4 (Moat vs. Hunting Grounds)

That's just wrong. Moat vs. Hunting Grounds is a next-to-useless terminal you don't even want in your deck in most situations vs. one of the most powerful +card cards for engines. Is Ruined Library a card that people actually buy for $0? inb4 someone says yes and posts a log in which they did that and won because of it Would you say that a terminal "Each other player gains a Curse" is balanced at $1?

Besides, a terminal +2 Cards loses a lot of its strength when you have a deck full of cantrips. Furthermore, Mine is still an incredibly weak card, so it's not useful to compare the two cards unless one is strictly better than the other, which isn't the case here.


I dislike this card for the reasons that silverspawn pointed out, but I'm not buying that the effect would be too strong at $5 and with +2 Cards.

[LastFootnote]

I think the comparisons to Mine are a bit of a stretch. Yes this card could have a similar effect on your deck's economy, but the mechanic is completely different and Kontor and Mine combo with completely different cards.

I strongly suggest that you use a new ancillary card rather than Peddler for Kontor. I guess by the fact that you reference the Grand Market pile as well that maybe that's the point of the card. If so, I'm not a fan of the idea. Requiring another specific Kingdom card seems hokey to me. But let's say you have:

Kontor (Action) $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
Gain a CardX from the CardX pile.

CardX (Action) $0*
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
(This is not in the Supply.)

This could be interesting, but probably it wants more excitement. You could test it like this and then add some cool bonus to CardX depending on how it plays out.

[market squire]

Why not? At least I'd like to try fixing it.

because

• it feels awkward
• it requires another kingdom card to be ingame. that's a completely new mechanic, and should probably not be done without a good reason.
• in peddler games, you often buy lots of cheap +buys to empty the pile, and then do so pretty quickly, which will just make your card useless
• the interaction with TfB is kind of silly
• the concept of "increase the money produced from your deck by 1$ for each time played" has already been done. by mine.

if anything, I'd make a new non-kingdomm card with "+1 card, +1 action, +1$" and price 0$, and reference that one. but then I'd say, that's not worth it for a mine-variant.

Sounds like you dislike the idea just because the concept is new/ strange to you.

I opened this thread rather for the concept (i.e. gain other kingdom card) than for the idea (i.e. Mine variation).

Personally, I have not much love for additional non-kingdom piles like those in Dark Ages (EDIT: and like LastFootnote suggested). I think it is much easier to use an existing kingdom card that is really simple - maybe the concept could also work with "gain Laboratory"; or "gain Smithy" on a Necropolis card; or "gain a $5 card that is randomly chosen during setup". There are some interesting things possible with this concept while it doesn't need any new rules. Of course the effect is less powerful when that specific card is in the supply as well. But this should be fixable, see my last post. Then there are two ways to gain Peddlers, either by this card or by cheap +buys. The interaction with Tfb might be silly, but still fun, I think.

Now I noticed that Donald's cards that gain a specific non-supply card either trash themselves (Hermit, Urchin) or let the other card put itself back on its pile (Madman, Spoils).
I also noticed that this phrase is pretty bad: "In games using this, when you trash a Peddler, put it on the Peddler pile." VP engine with this and Bishop, you know...


What about a Reaction like this, a risk that you can loose the Peddlers:


Kontor (Action-Reaction) $5
Gain a Peddler from the Peddler pile. Play it.
____________________________
When a player plays a Peddler, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, put it on the Peddler pile.


This might be a bit political if players choose not to reveal, but the Action part encourages them to do.

[silverspawn]

while it doesn't need any new rules.

if you don't add any  new rules, this card is useless on the majority of boards, because there is no peddler to gain. it does need new rules.

and actually, I dislike the idea for the reasons I listed.

[LastFootnote]

If you're really set on using another Kingdom card as a non-Supply pile, I think you'd be better off using the vanilla ones like Village, Woodcutter, Laboratory, etc. I try to keep an open mind these days about new concepts, but the idea of using existing Kingdom cards rubs me the wrong way because not everybody owns every set. For instance, your version of Kontor that uses Oasis, Peddler, and Market requires Hinterlands, Prosperity, and the Base Set.

Why don't you like non-Kingdom card piles? 

[soulnet]

A $5-cost "Gain a Lab" is interesting because its clearly worse than outright buying the lab if everyone gets one, but if you get the only one, it may be worth it. However, it is basically forcing everyone to Curse themselves, so it is not really a good addition, just an interesting thought exercise.

[LastFootnote]

A $5-cost "Gain a Lab" is interesting because its clearly worse than outright buying the lab if everyone gets one, but if you get the only one, it may be worth it. However, it is basically forcing everyone to Curse themselves, so it is not really a good addition, just an interesting thought exercise.

I think you're right if players can also just buy the Labs straight. If they can't, though, it's probably often worth buying a $5 card that reads "Gain a Lab from the Lab pile".

[silverspawn]

I actually think that, on the majority of boards, you buy a card that says "gain a lab" (if lab is there of course) rather than lab itself if both cost 5$. this of course a question of strategy and not a question of design.

you probably don't want to get more than one.

[Holger]

Usually adding +2 cards to a terminal card is enough to increase a card price by about $4 (Moat vs. Hunting Grounds)

That's just wrong. Moat vs. Hunting Grounds is a next-to-useless terminal you don't even want in your deck in most situations vs. one of the most powerful +card cards for engines. Is Ruined Library a card that people actually buy for $0? inb4 someone says yes and posts a log in which they did that and won because of it Would you say that a terminal "Each other player gains a Curse" is balanced at $1?

Probably, yes.  It's clearly weaker than Sea Hag, and the difference between $1 and $4 doesn't matter much since you usually won't buy more than two. A Witch with only a +1 card bonus would certainly work at $3 in terms of card balance; its only problem is the ugly slog games it could cause.
Of course you don't buy Ruined Library, because it actively hurts your deck, and only costs $0 because there are no negative price points.

If you consider Moat to be so much weaker than HG at their respective price points, adding +2 Cards should cause an even higher cost increase than $4 to be balanced. But HG is only at an average position among $6+ cards in Qvist's card ranking, while Moat is below average among the $2 cards but far from the worst. Not every board is an engine, after all. And Moat's non-vanilla bonus is not that much stronger than HG's, I think.
You can also compare HG with Smithy, a strongish $4 card, which is probably the better comparison because price increases between $0 and $4 matter much less than going from $4- to $5+.

Cantrips do indeed hurt terminal card draw; I did say it could work at $5 in the absence of TfB, in spite of being better than Mine. But with TfB you get a $8's worth out of every Kontor play, in addition to playing the Peddler when it doesn't collide with TfB, and you won't have a deck full of cantrips because you keep trashing the Peddlers.

[market squire]

the idea of using existing Kingdom cards rubs me the wrong way because not everybody owns every set. For instance, your version of Kontor that uses Oasis, Peddler, and Market requires Hinterlands, Prosperity, and the Base Set.

You are right, this is a problem (even for me if I don't combine my game with my sister's). I wanted the first version to be able only with Prosperity, but when you open the card pool, you need multiple expansions.

Why don't you like non-Kingdom card piles? 

Well, I don't really dislike the extra piles. I just hate that moment when you see them first and have to read lots of extra text and think, man that's complex. Simple cards like Spoils are okay and I also like the theme of "Hermit goes mad" and "Urchin gets paid". But I don't see a huge appeal in making new cards in that manner.
Referencing existing kingdom cards is different - you already got to know them.

A $5-cost "Gain a Lab" is interesting because its clearly worse than outright buying the lab if everyone gets one, but if you get the only one, it may be worth it. However, it is basically forcing everyone to Curse themselves, so it is not really a good addition, just an interesting thought exercise.

What if it does not cost $5?

School (Action) $3
Gain an education card from its pile.
If you don't, [xyz].
________________________
Setup: Determine a card costing $5 that is not in the supply. Cards from that pile are education cards.

[Holger]

while it doesn't need any new rules.

if you don't add any  new rules, this card is useless on the majority of boards, because there is no peddler to gain. it does need new rules.

Technically, it uses the existing rule that cards can be gained from outside the supply by specifying their origin - "gain a Peddler from the Peddler pile" should work the same way as "gain a Madman from the Madman pile" when Peddler isn't in the supply.

Personally, I have not much love for additional non-kingdom piles like those in Dark Ages (EDIT: and like LastFootnote suggested). I think it is much easier to use an existing kingdom card that is really simple - maybe the concept could also work with "gain Laboratory"; or "gain Smithy" on a Necropolis card; or "gain a $5 card that is randomly chosen during setup". There are some interesting things possible with this concept while it doesn't need any new rules. Of course the effect is less powerful when that specific card is in the supply as well. But this should be fixable, see my last post. Then there are two ways to gain Peddlers, either by this card or by cheap +buys. The interaction with Tfb might be silly, but still fun, I think.

Now I noticed that Donald's cards that gain a specific non-supply card either trash themselves (Hermit, Urchin) or let the other card put itself back on its pile (Madman, Spoils).
I also noticed that this phrase is pretty bad: "In games using this, when you trash a Peddler, put it on the Peddler pile." VP engine with this and Bishop, you know...

Yes, this could be worse than Bishop-Fortress. If you don't return trashed Peddlers to their pile, your "+2 cards" version would probably work at $5, since it becomes "dead" (or rather, Moat-ish) quickly when contested, just like Witch. But even just two "good" plays give you almost a (retarded) Grand Market (or two $8 TfB targets), in addition to the weak card draw.